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Wheels, Tires, Brakes and Suspension Performance Modifications Discussions regarding modifications and/or issues regarding the suspension and braking systems of the Hyundai Genesis Coupe.

Hyundai Genesis Forum: Genesis Coupe Suspension Revealed
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  #1  
Old 04-14-2009, 04:05 PM
Turn In Concepts Turn In Concepts is offline
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Default Genesis Coupe Suspension Revealed

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Genesis Track Suspension Revealed

Generally speaking, the suspension the track edition Genesis is pretty good from a driving standpoint. There is little roll to the body, decent grip and a sporty feel. In daily commuting, one can feel the stiffness and willingness of the suspension, but it doesn't go too far to become a kidney buster.

This all changes however, when the car is pushed. A few people have reported loads of understeer when autoxing or pushing it hard. When driven over undulations in the road at speed (65-80) the car can be felt bobbing and bouncing with the front bobbing at a different rate than the rear. There is also a lack of precision that can be felt mid corner when additional steering input is needed and when bumps are encountered. Our goals is to put cause to these issues and to explain our plans for fixing these issues.

Basic Overview

The Genesis Coupe uses a MacPherson Strut front suspension and multilink rear. These are very common forms of suspension that have been around for some time. The MacPherson strut front is favored by many car manufacturers for its simplicity in design and compact fitment. The multilink rear is a proven setup that is used on Lancer Evolutions and the latest Subaru Impreza STI among many others. While these are favored by manufacturers, neither are without faults or a lack of means of improvement.

If there is one major problem with the MacPherson strut suspension, it can be summed up by the term camber loss. Camber is the angle at which the top of the tire tips in towards the car. Camber is also directly related to the amount of grip a suspension has. Up to a point, the more camber that is added the more grip the tires will have at that location. (I can cover this in another paper if folks need - Clint) When a car with MacStrut (short for Macpherson) based front suspension is thrown into a turn the amount of body roll the car has directly affects the amount of camber loss and subsequent grip at that front of the car. This camber loss will result in lower negative camber numbers to the point where the front loaded tire can actually go to positive camber relatively quickly. Positive camber is not good for overall grip when in a turn and positive camber in the front of a car during a turn will lead to understeer.

As an example, a car with -.5* of static camber in the front (much like the Genesis Coupe) that encounters 3* of body roll in a turn will result in a dynamic camber number of +2.5*. 0* of camber is what we shoot for when the car is fully loaded in a turn and where max grip on the tire will occur. Any positive camber beyond that is leading to understeer and is not good. There are a few ways to combat this camber loss with the most basic being adding additional static negative camber to the front. Using the same example with a static camber setting of -3* instead of -.5* with the same 3* of body roll would result in 0* of dynamic camber and maximum grip on the loaded tire. There are however problems with adding that much static camber to the car including twitchiness under hard braking and increased inside tire wear. (the single larger factor in tire wear however is toe, not camber)

The rear suspension is a multilink setup with five separate arms to control the motion of the rear tire. It is quite complex in design and function and works much differently than the front. While a Macstrut design loses camber under compression, the multilink design tends to gain camber on compression. Too much rear camber to front camber can cause a car to understeer as well. There are also issues with the control of toe in the rear of a multilink setup as it causes the rear toe to change in and out as it compresses and rebounds. Because the springs and shocks are quite a ways inboard from the wheel, precise calculations must be done to figure out damping profiles of the shocks and spring rates.

Problem Conditions/Areas

There are several problematic conditions/areas that we have identified in the suspension of the Genesis Coupe. They are as follows:
-Severe understeer
-Lack of suspension travel
-Imprecise steering at times
-Soft bushings
-Bobbing/uncontrolled undulations
-Improper spring rates

These are the major areas that need tweaking right off. More will surface as we dive more deeply into the suspension design of the car, but these need to be addressed now. Without resolving these issues, a proper handling sports car the Genesis Coupe does not make.

Understeer and Lack of Travel

In part of our new car buying ritual, we completely remove the suspension and measure everything. In the first week we had our Genesis Coupe the suspension was removed 5 times! We know we're nuts, but this is what we love. Our first major discovery when measuring the suspension was the lack of bump travel in the front. With the car at standard right height, there is only 2.25" of total bump travel (including the bump stops) and only .375" of free strut travel before engaging the bump stops. The results of this? Major undsteer when the car is pushed. As the car rolls and the suspension is loaded in the front the strut is compressed and the bump stop is engaged. When the bump stop is engaged the spring rate of the suspension is increased. Softly at first, but very quickly increasing as the bumper is compressed further. Once enough of the bumper has been compressed, the damper (shock) can no longer control the spring movement resulting in the car's tires skipping across the ground...understeer.

After driving the car for a few hundred miles and measuring the suspension, there is no doubt in my mind that the majority of the understeer issues with the car come from not having enough bump travel. Unfortunately, there is not a great way to fix this. We have changed the stock bump stop out in the front for a shorter unit. Overall it is 1" shorter than the stock bump stop giving us a total of 1.375" of bump travel before engaging the bump stop. This change is immediately noticed when driving down the road as the car does not "bounce" as much over small dips. It is much more smooth leading me to believe that the stock bump stops are engaged most of the time during regular driving. The overall understeer characteristics of the car were not affected by this shorter bump stop as it is still engaged quite heavily under hard cornering.

There are two other ways in which bump travel can be gained on the car, but at this point the products are still in early development phases. More to come as we get closers to working prototypes.

The stock alignment specs on the Genesis Coupe call for +.5* to -.5* of camber in the front. This is no where near enough for performance driving on a Macstrut equipped car. We changed out the stock lower strut bolts, both non-adjustable units, for 14mm camber bolts from SPC. With both bolts set for max negative camber we were able to get close to -1.5* on both sides. This definitely helped the overall grip when entering corners and made the care turn in faster, but did not help the overall grip at the limit of adhesion due to the lack of bump travel.
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  #2  
Old 04-14-2009, 04:05 PM
Turn In Concepts Turn In Concepts is offline
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Default Re: Genesis Coupe Suspension Revealed

Imprecise Midcorner Steering and Soft Bushings

I have noticed at times that while the steering can be very quick at turn in, it lacks some response mid corner. This is most often noticed just after entering a corner as a feel of understeer (not to be confused with the scenario discussed earlier). In my typical response to and undsteering car I was slowing down in an attempt to regain front grip. I did once however decide to add more steering input with the wheel and was rewarded in more front grip and a change in direction. What I am to realize is the suspension bushings are so soft they deflect enough to change the direction of the car. Upon inspection, the bushings were found to be incredibly soft. We are going to go through and measure all bushings in the suspension for a complete overhaul. The change that stiffer suspension bushings make is often amazing. Stiffer suspension bushings act as a base for all other suspension modifications. If the bushings are soft and easily deflected, the precision from all other suspension mods will be masked somewhat and maximum performance will not be achieved.

Bobbing/uncontrolled oscillations and Improper Spring Rates

The bobbing problems or uncontrolled oscillations can easily be felt over large dips and humps at highway speed. The car will hit these imperfections in the road surface with the result being a certain number of oscillations of the suspension. The number of oscillations is referred to as the frequency with the front and rear frequencies being considered independently.

The unwanted motion we are concerned with is expressed in a difference of frequency between the front and the rear that results in a pitching motion where the front and rear oscillate at different rates and for too long a period of time. This pitching motion will result in the front finishing it's oscillations or movement before the rear does. Ideally the rear would finish at the same time as the front for best overall control at speed (very important when on track). In order to determine the cause, we first looked to the spring rate being used on the track suspension as well as the motion ratio of the front and rear suspensions.

The ratio can be described as the difference in amount the wheel travels compared to the amount the spring/shock travels. For example, if the wheel travels 1" upward and the spring perch travels 3/4" upwards the motion ratio would be .75:1 or 75%. This means that the spring is moving only 75% of what the wheel is moving. This calculation is one of the factors in determining the correct spring rate that should be run on the car. Other factors include wheel base, sprung weight, unsprung weight, and desired frequency among others. (If needed I can go into wheel rate and frequency in further detail - Clint)

Given the design of the front and rear suspension and their inherent motion ratios it is clear that for optimal performance the rear spring rate should be higher than the front as the rear motion ratio is lower than the front. In testing, we found that the rears are stiffer than the front, but by not a high enough margin. They should be close to 30% more stiff given the stock rate of the front. More will come of this as we get damper plots of the stock shocks.

Conclusions

So what does all of this info tell us?

1. The stock suspension isn't too bad, but definitely has it's short comings.
2. Any lowering springs that reduce bump travel (all lowering springs by themselves) will result in more understeer and worse handling
2a. Ideal aftermarket spring designed to enhance performance would be stock height (or a little higher!) with higher spring rates
3. There needs to be more travel in the front
4. There needs to be more negative camber in the front
5. The stock bushings are way too soft for a performance oriented car

Next Steps

1. Dyno the stock dampers
2. Confirm spring rates
3. Work out products for increasing front bump travel
4. Develop stiffer suspension bushings

More info will be added to this and more threads created as we get more info.
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  #3  
Old 04-14-2009, 04:06 PM
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Default Re: Genesis Coupe Suspension Revealed

Random pictures we took along the way.

Pic of a front strut and knuckle with two camber bolts installed. This allowed us to achieve roughly -1.5* of camber in the front on each side.


Stock bolts.


Standard camber bolt. 14mm


Pic of the lack of travel in the front. This is with the car at ride height.
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  #4  
Old 04-16-2009, 02:47 PM
Goose Goose is offline
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Default Re: Genesis Coupe Suspension Revealed

I can vouch for the imprecise steering on the stock suspension (at least on my Grand Touring model). This is not meant to thread-jack, but I thought I would add my impressions of the stock setup:

The overwhelming impression of the steering, even in steady-state highway driving, is one of instability. In addition to being fairly sensitive to cross-winds on the highway, the Coupe almost "overreacts" to even minor steering inputs. Numb on-center feel gives way to a light-feeling, over-boosted response that can be unsettling at normal highway speed. In addition, the steering doesn't have that "desire to return to center" that is the hallmark of many performance cars. Another interesting element is the car wanting to alter course slightly when a wheel encounters a slight dip in the pavement.

Just adding my impressions. It'll be interesting to see what solutions you come up with!
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  #5  
Old 04-16-2009, 06:56 PM
Duaine Duaine is offline
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Default Re: Genesis Coupe Suspension Revealed

Kind of sounds somewhat like the sedan suspension issues in some ways.
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  #6  
Old 04-23-2009, 10:43 PM
need4speed need4speed is offline
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Default Re: Genesis Coupe Suspension Revealed

This is the most informative post yet. I'm glad I found this blog before I buy. When I test drove the car I was very impressed but didn't get to drive it hard enough to know some of these issues. I would definately make the suspension mod 1st on my list. I just decided to wait to buy my Genesis Coupe until there are enough aftermarket parts to begin work immediately. I plan on getting the 3.8 track auto. More than power I believe handling is the biggest priority. Either way getting that suspension right will increase acceleration. It might not be noticeable amounts with the stock engine. But as its built up and tuned. The suspension may improve it all the way up to .5 seconds.
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  #7  
Old 05-16-2009, 02:51 AM
ClayMan ClayMan is offline
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Default Re: Genesis Coupe Suspension Revealed

Lack of bump travel and riding on bump stops is BAAAD. Can you shorten the struts to compensate?
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Old 12-13-2009, 01:15 PM
david.lee264 david.lee264 is offline
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Default Re: Genesis Coupe Suspension Revealed

Good to hear but don't think it will be working properly for a long time.
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Old 01-12-2010, 04:15 PM
ramnj ramnj is offline
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Default Re: Genesis Coupe Suspension Revealed

Not sure I completely understand all of the technical info you posted but want to know if you have a kit that would fix the problem on the Track 3.8...
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  #10  
Old 10-22-2012, 10:35 AM
Silver Gen Silver Gen is offline
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Default Re: Genesis Coupe Suspension Revealed

Turn In Concepts, no more follow up posts in regards to the suspension? I know a lot of people that are putting lowering springs on stock suspension or going all the way and getting coilovers all the way around. How do these affect things?
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:03 PM
wmiles wmiles is offline
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Default Re: Genesis Coupe Suspension Revealed

My 2013 GT steering does seem imprecise, especially after driving a 2008 Mustang Bullitt with competitive Autox suspension and chassis stiffening for almost 5 years. The coupe just has this tendency to "wander" over the road with imprecise steering response. Is there a durable fix to this issue?
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Old 03-30-2013, 12:50 PM
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Thumbs down Re: Genesis Coupe Suspension Revealed

Wow, I have to strongly disagree with such an opininated assesment of the Track-Tuned Suspension. I have exactly the same suspension on my R-Spec. The OP might be confused as to which model they were testing, as it sounds more like the base/premium/gt models which do not have the track suspension.

Severe Understeer??
I routinely toss the car into hard corners and have never encountered the slightest understeer. The car is regularly cheered for its balanced handling. Perhaps you mean oversteer with the traction control turned off, leading to controlled drifts using counter-steering.

Lack of Suspension Travel??
Isn't that why a lot of people lower the car? The travel is more than adequate for a highly-strung sports car of its type. Yet, later you go on to say: "3. There needs to be more travel in the front".

Imprecise Steering??
Again, I am not able to duplicate this opinion on my car, even in the controlled drifts previously mentioned. The car goes where I point it in all performance conditions. "Imprecise" is not a word that has ever come to mind when driving this car, or with my racing friends who have driven it. With small highway adjustments, hard-cornering, delicate counter-steering, I'd say the steering is as precise as car steering can be on a consumer automobile at this weight and size.

Soft Bushings, Bobbing, Improper Spring Rates
I see no evidence for that. The R-Spec/Track cars have highly-tuned and balanced weight and suspension characteristics. The car is also suposed to be driveable on daily basis in all types of conditions. So, the suspension is very stiff, but also supple enough to take bumps rather well. It's true that lowering springs will make the handling worse, as they only lower the car and mess up the tuned angles and rates of the components, and they will work against the stock struts and other parts, wearing them out prematurely. Anyone serious about lowering and keeping some semblance of the Track-Tuned handling will use coilovers instead, but even then, the balance of the R-Spec/Track is compromised, unless much care is taken in the coilover settings.

"So what does all of this info tell us?" That the reviewers have strong biases in comparing their test car against some presumed baseline they never explained. Several professional reviewers have described how good the Track-Tuned Suspension actually is, amazingly good, as well as a number of us who drive it on a daily basis and have to ignore such negative pseudo-knowledge posted on discussion forums. The review seems to be talking about the base model, or even a Sonata, instead of what we know to be the R-Spec/Track Coupe experience.
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Old 04-02-2013, 01:02 PM
Silver Gen Silver Gen is offline
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Default Re: Genesis Coupe Suspension Revealed

Top Gear, I would have to agree with you. I have a track model and it handled fine to me. I ended up answering my own question though (and I see the OP has never responded).

I ended up getting the front upper Cusco sway bar and then the Eibach Pro Street S coilovers along with their front and rear sway bar system. Here's what the advertisement says: "...high performance coilovers that feature quick adjustable lowering but do not offer adjustable shock damping. Pro-Street S setups are designed for street use and are, in essence, a reasonably priced, balanced solution to purchasing shocks and springs for your Coupe. They feature a rust free stainless steel shock bodies and utilize the OEM suspension mounts to make installation and maintenance trouble free. You'll never have to worry about perches getting rusted in place! As the Eibach Pro-Street S coilovers are a complete setup, they offer increased stroke over a stock-type setup or spring and shock package, which increases shock life and prevents the 'bottoming out' traditionally associated with lowering springs..."

For the sway bars, Eibach says this: "...the Eibach ANTI-ROLL-KIT sway bars substantially reduce body-roll through increased design stiffness over your vehicles stock bars. The impressive results are increased balance, handling and cornering grip in all performance-driving situations. Want more? Correct oversteer/understeer? Many of our most popular sway bar applications are adjustable to give you the ability to fine-tune the handling to suit your driving style and achieve the impressive results—sought after by automotive enthusiasts worldwide..." I have my swaybars "set" on the stiffest setting and now the car handles like it's on tracks. No more body roll at all and I can go in and out of corners much faster now. The "tilting" of the car in fast take-offs or hard braking has decreased also. In addition, when hitting bumps or going over tracks, the car doesn't "bounce" around as much and is easier to handle. I've also noticed that when driving, the car now "stays put"; i.e. when driving in a straight line, I can take my hands off the wheel at any speed and it still "tracks true".

So though I disagree with what the OP states, the addition of the suspension system I purchased has much improved an already very good handling vehicle and it has been my experience that everything Eibach advertised is true! I could really see the difference between the OEM suspension parts and the Eibach ones; thicker, beefier and better quality.
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and possibly some type of aftermarket CAI, exhaust, coilovers & sway bars

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Old 02-10-2014, 04:23 AM
coreybug coreybug is offline
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Default Re: Genesis Coupe Suspension Revealed

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I agree with you completely. My 2010 Track is amazing.
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