2009 4.6 to a 2013 3.8

[raw6464]

I traded my 2011 4.6 for a 2013 3.8 with both accessory package and I have to say Hyundai spent a lot of time improving the quality feel, improve riding and make it an all around better car. They took off all the harshness and made the car the feel of an upscale luxury car... kudos to Hyundai.

Let me take the opportunity to beg Hyundai to TAKE THE H OFF all Genesis and Equus cars. If no "Genesis Division" at least make a Genesis/Equus sales and service "separations" at the dealers level.

While buying my new Genesis there was a $60K Equus on the showroom floor with a "H" on the trunk. What came to mind was "what a shame"... they just put a stake in the heart of this car. The folks with BMW/Mercedes/Lexus money will never buy this car. The "Volkswagon" badge killed the $80K Volkswagon and will kill the Equus just the same.

I hear Hyundai has created a bunch of "upscale managers" nationwide to try to find out why the Genesis/Equus cars are not selling in some areas. I think Hyundai would better themselves if they took the H off and fired all the managers who insist the H must go on. Hyundai cars are not seen with prestige cars by the BMW/Mercedes crowd and never will. The sooner Hyundai "gets it" the sooner they can sell more upscale cars.

 

[wd40]

I traded my 2011 4.6 for a 2013 3.8 with both accessory package and I have to say Hyundai spent a lot of time improving the quality feel, improve riding and make it an all around better car. They took off all the harshness and made the car the feel of an upscale luxury car... kudos to Hyundai.

Let me take the opportunity to beg Hyundai to TAKE THE H OFF all Genesis and Equus cars. If no "Genesis Division" at least make a Genesis/Equus sales and service "separations" at the dealers level.

While buying my new Genesis there was a $60K Equus on the showroom floor with a "H" on the trunk. What came to mind was "what a shame"... they just put a stake in the heart of this car. The folks with BMW/Mercedes/Lexus money will never buy this car. The "Volkswagon" badge killed the $80K Volkswagon and will kill the Equus just the same.

I hear Hyundai has created a bunch of "upscale managers" nationwide to try to find out why the Genesis/Equus cars are not selling in some areas. I think Hyundai would better themselves if they took the H off and fired all the managers who insist the H must go on. Hyundai cars are not seen with prestige cars by the BMW/Mercedes crowd and never will. The sooner Hyundai "gets it" the sooner they can sell more upscale cars.

I agree wholeheartedly. Maybe we should start a thread of "what changes/adds/improvements everyone would like to see in a new Genesis. (probably already some at some point) I had my sister's BMW 650 for a few weeks while she was out of town, and although I really like the car I would not trade my Genesis for that unit.

 

[raw6464]

I agree wholeheartedly. Maybe we should start a thread of "what changes/adds/improvements everyone would like to see in a new Genesis. (probably already some at some point) I had my sister's BMW 650 for a few weeks while she was out of town, and although I really like the car I would not trade my Genesis for that unit.

My daughter has a BMW650 also. I really like the car too. BUT... it was twice the price of a Genesis.

I had 2 BMWs... 328 & 540 from a reliability perspective they were both the most problematic cars I've ever owned. The 540 was $57K new, but only worth $19K 4 years later. Poor reliability and resale where enough to make my last BMW my last BMW.

 

[scottdk]

My daughter has a BMW650 also. I really like the car too. BUT... it was twice the price of a Genesis.

I had 2 BMWs... 328 & 540 from a reliability perspective they were both the most problematic cars I've ever owned. The 540 was $57K new, but only worth $19K 4 years later. Poor reliability and resale where enough to make my last BMW my last BMW.

My coworker just bought a 2005 CLK AMG 55 with around 55,000 miles on it. I fear for his pocketbook and sanity. The convertible top is already falling apart. He generally only keeps cars about 2 years, so I'm sure he has no intentions of doing any maintenance before selling.

 

[Pahaska]

I'm dickering right now to turn my 2009 Tau in for a 3.8 with tech package. I'm not about to lose my toys!

Everyone I talk to says the ride has been greatly improved. My Tau has been virtually trouble free and, with 4 more years experience with the same basic design, I would expect that the replacement would be as good.

Local dealers are talking 6K off of list and that's a starting price without any dickering.

 

[raw6464]

I'm dickering right now to turn my 2009 Tau in for a 3.8 with tech package. I'm not about to lose my toys!

Everyone I talk to says the ride has been greatly improved. My Tau has been virtually trouble free and, with 4 more years experience with the same basic design, I would expect that the replacement would be as good.

Local dealers are talking 6K off of list and that's a starting price without any dickering.

I don't think you'll be disappointed with the 3.8. It has been refined substantially with a better ride, very quite and better performance.

As far as performance the 3.8 is only .2 seconds slower than the 4.9 in 0-60MPH. Hyundai accomplished that in the 3.8 with 333 horsepower coupled to an 8 speed tranny with a lower gear ratio than the 6 speed 4.6 The first 5 gears in the 3.8 are low for performance and the top 3 are all overdrive for gas mileage. Drive the 3.8 and you'll swear there's a V8 under the hood. Al and all, the 3.8 with both optional packages is a better car than the 4.6 I traded in.

 

[my2wins]

Let me take the opportunity to beg Hyundai to TAKE THE H OFF all Genesis and Equus cars. If no "Genesis Division" at least make a Genesis/Equus sales and service "separations" at the dealers level.

While buying my new Genesis there was a $60K Equus on the showroom floor with a "H" on the trunk. What came to mind was "what a shame"... they just put a stake in the heart of this car. The folks with BMW/Mercedes/Lexus money will never buy this car.

I've thought a lot about this, and thought the same thing at first. I even shared my comments in the Hyundai Think Tank, believing the marketing people would hear me.

After a while it dawned on me. The Hyundai executives are playing the long game here with their brand strategy. The Genesis (and Equus) are spectacular cars, but my guess is that they created these two high end sub-brands to lift their master brand, not to create a separate portfolio.

As the saying goes "a rising tide lifts all boats."

Hyundai has a *huge* portfolio and by lifting the entire product line by putting a spectacular luxury product into the market, they can go after a much bigger total available market across all of their cars. Hyundai likely wishes to become a force that dominates all car categories, not just luxury.

If this is their business strategy, they will never remove the H from either high end car. It is the cornerstone of their chess game.

They probably have economists that have run the numbers and comparative scenarios between what their total revenue will be over the next decade (across all cars) given the addition of the luxury lines vs without the luxury lines vs with the luxury lines splintered off as separate brands. Given the math, my guess is that chances are they will never lose the H.

 

[Mark_888]

I've thought a lot about this, and thought the same thing at first. I even shared my comments in the Hyundai Think Tank, believing the marketing people would hear me.

After a while it dawned on me. The Hyundai executives are playing the long game here with their brand strategy. The Genesis (and Equus) are spectacular cars, but my guess is that they created these two high end sub-brands to lift their master brand, not to create a separate portfolio.

As the saying goes "a rising tide lifts all boats."

Hyundai has a *huge* portfolio and by lifting the entire product line by putting a spectacular luxury product into the market, they can go after a much bigger total available market across all of their cars. Hyundai likely wishes to become a force that dominates all car categories, not just luxury.

If this is their business strategy, they will never remove the H from either high end car. It is the cornerstone of their chess game.

They probably have economists that have run the numbers and comparative scenarios between what their total revenue will be over the next decade (across all cars) given the addition of the luxury lines vs without the luxury lines vs with the luxury lines splintered off as separate brands. Given the math, my guess is that chances are they will never lose the H.

You are sort of right. The Genesis and Equus were created for the Korean market, which is why they are sold as a separate brand there (and why we can get the winged emblems to replace our H's (hood, truck, wheels, airbag, and even keyfob). In Korea, the manufacturer is Hyundai, brand is Genesis, and model is BH380, etc. Sort of like a Lincoln is manufactured by Ford, brand is Lincoln, model is Navigator, etc.

The decision made by Hyundai Motor America, first to import the Genesis and Equus in the first place, and second to sell it as a Hyundai brand, is exactly as you stated: a calculated effort to boost the Hyundai brand image in the US. They have no such problems in Korea, obviously (and where car buyers are very loyal to Korean manufacturers).

 

[raw6464]

I've thought a lot about this, and thought the same thing at first. I even shared my comments in the Hyundai Think Tank, believing the marketing people would hear me.

After a while it dawned on me. The Hyundai executives are playing the long game here with their brand strategy. The Genesis (and Equus) are spectacular cars, but my guess is that they created these two high end sub-brands to lift their master brand, not to create a separate portfolio.

As the saying goes "a rising tide lifts all boats."

Hyundai has a *huge* portfolio and by lifting the entire product line by putting a spectacular luxury product into the market, they can go after a much bigger total available market across all of their cars. Hyundai likely wishes to become a force that dominates all car categories, not just luxury.

If this is their business strategy, they will never remove the H from either high end car. It is the cornerstone of their chess game.

They probably have economists that have run the numbers and comparative scenarios between what their total revenue will be over the next decade (across all cars) given the addition of the luxury lines vs without the luxury lines vs with the luxury lines splintered off as separate brands. Given the math, my guess is that chances are they will never lose the H.

They will NEVER raise the Hyundai brand with the Equus/Genesis. Toyota new knew it, Nissan new it, Honda new it and Volkswagen didn't and they paid the price.

The BMW/Lexus/Mercedes crowd would not be caught dead with an "H" car at the Golf & Tennis Club. Exclusivity is paramount in the perception of prestige.

From a reliability perspective BMW and Mercedes are average at best and below average in many, yet people STILL pay 2-3 times to get one of these mediocre repair record cars.

There is also a reason why Hyundai is creating a new job profile just to find out why people are not buying their upscale cars. This is SOOOOO typical of a management strategy to deflect the blame of why their strategy is not working.

Don't get me started at the service department expectations... that's another reason Hyundai don't get it.

 

[Mark_888]

They will NEVER raise the Hyundai brand with the Equus/Genesis. Toyota new knew it, Nissan new it, Honda new it and Volkswagen didn't and they paid the price.

The BMW/Lexus/Mercedes crowd would not be caught dead with an "H" car at the Golf & Tennis Club. Exclusivity is paramount in the perception of prestige.

From a reliability perspective BMW and Mercedes are average at best and below average in many, yet people STILL pay 2-3 times to get one of these mediocre repair record cars.

There is also a reason why Hyundai is creating a new job profile just to find out why people are not buying their upscale cars. This is SOOOOO typical of a management strategy to deflect the blame of why their strategy is not working.

Don't get me started at the service department expectations... that's another reason Hyundai don't get it.

I hope you don't take this personally, but I think you are little confused about what we mean by "build/raise the brand." Hyundai knows they cannot raise the Hyundai brand to the level of MB or BMW (or even Lexus) by selling the Genesis and Equus under the Hyundai brand. What they are trying to do is to raise the Hyundai brand so that people shopping for a Camry and Accord will also look at a Sonata (or people shopping for Corolla or Civic will consider an Elantra, etc). Their research has shown that an amazing number of shoppers will test drive a Camry or Accord but not even consider a Sonata. That has changed to some degree over the last 4 years, but they still have a ways to go.

If you look at what a Genesis or Equus costs in Korea (or even Canada) it appears that Hyundai Motor America is not making much profit off of them in the USA, and that they are using these vehicles (at least for now) to "build the brand" and help sell all their other cars, rather than to make a lot of money selling the Genesis and Equus individually.

Sure, Hyundai wants more customer feedback to know what they can do to increase Genesis/Equus sales. They are a marketing driven company and listen to customer feedback.

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[stuofsci02]

The BMW/Lexus/Mercedes crowd would not be caught dead with an "H" car at the Golf & Tennis Club. Exclusivity is paramount in the perception of prestige.

You are exactly right by this statement, but the BMW/Lexus/Merc crowd will also not be caught dead driving around an upscale Korean car with some other "exclusive" badge either.

The first thing Hyundai needs to do is convince everybody that Hyundai is as good as Toyota/Nissan/Honda. Even now, people still perceive Hyundai as a lesser brand than three listed above. Until they at least do that, they are not going to be able to create a new luxury brand.

So the Genesis/Equus show North American's that Hyundai is a quality manufacturer that makes cars on par or better than Toyota/Nissan/Honda. Once they have established this they can go on to create a new brand similar to Lexus/Infinity/Acura and people might then buy into a Luxury Korean Brand.

Until then, I am happy to have a great luxury car for a great price.

 

[raw6464]

I hope you don't take this personally, but I think you are little confused about what we mean by "build/raise the brand." Hyundai knows they cannot raise the Hyundai brand to the level of MB or BMW (or even Lexus) by selling the Genesis and Equus under the Hyundai brand. What they are trying to do is to raise the Hyundai brand so that people shopping for a Camry and Accord will also look at a Sonata (or people shopping for Corolla or Civic will consider an Elantra, etc). Their research has shown that an amazing number of shoppers will test drive a Camry or Accord but not even consider a Sonata. That has changed to some degree over the last 4 years, but they still have a ways to go.

If you look at what a Genesis or Equus costs in Korea (or even Canada) it appears that Hyundai Motor America is not making much profit off of them in the USA, and that they are using these vehicles (at least for now) to "build the brand" and help sell all their other cars, rather than to make a lot of money selling the Genesis and Equus individually.

Sure, Hyundai wants more customer feedback to know what they can do to increase Genesis/Equus sales. They are a marketing driven company and listen to customer feedback.

I hope you won't take this personal. Selling Equus and Genesis to raise the Hyundai brand while they are not selling either because of the Hyundai brand perception by the BMW crowd. So thinking it will help the Sonata crowd don't hold water.

There's a reason why Hyundai created and new job profile for the selling of Equus and Genesis specifically. And the reason is... they are not selling.

BTW the Sonata is blowing Camry and Accord away because Hyundai redesigned it with a game changing styling... everybody else is trying to catch up. The factory can't keep up with the demand. Great styling and lower pricing than the competition has always been a hit. But it has NOTHING to do with an Equus with an H on the trunk.

 

[raw6464]

You are exactly right by this statement, but the BMW/Lexus/Merc crowd will also not be caught dead driving around an upscale Korean car with some other "exclusive" badge either.

The first thing Hyundai needs to do is convince everybody that Hyundai is as good as Toyota/Nissan/Honda. Even now, people still perceive Hyundai as a lesser brand than three listed above. Until they at least do that, they are not going to be able to create a new luxury brand.

So the Genesis/Equus show North American's that Hyundai is a quality manufacturer that makes cars on par or better than Toyota/Nissan/Honda. Once they have established this they can go on to create a new brand similar to Lexus/Infinity/Acura and people might then buy into a Luxury Korean Brand.

Until then, I am happy to have a great luxury car for a great price.

I think the current styling was a game changer for the Sonata and most other cars in the line up. No question Hyundai is hurting the other Asian car manufacturers. Brand perception can only be made by years of making excellent and reasonable prices and Hyundai is getting there.

But and the end of the day the Equus (which was rushed to redo the interior) and Genesis are NOT selling. All the sales of reliable Sonatas in the world won't change the Hyundai perception in the BMW level market. All the other Asian manufacturers new this right from the beginning and they ALL created an up scale division. I am not the only one saying this I've heard and read it in magazines and WEB reviews of these cars. They will not sell with an H on the trunk... period.

But I agree I'm happy with a great car at a very nice price. My new Genesis 3.8 is one of the best cars I've ever owned.

 

[Mark_888]

I hope you won't take this personal. Selling Equus and Genesis to raise the Hyundai brand while they are not selling either because of the Hyundai brand perception by the BMW crowd. So thinking it will help the Sonata crowd don't hold water.

There's a reason why Hyundai created and new job profile for the selling of Equus and Genesis specifically. And the reason is... they are not selling.

BTW the Sonata is blowing Camry and Accord away because Hyundai redesigned it with a game changing styling... everybody else is trying to catch up. The factory can't keep up with the demand. Great styling and lower pricing than the competition has always been a hit. But it has NOTHING to do with an Equus with an H on the trunk.

You are still confused. I told you what the thinking was on the part of Hyundai Motors America, not my thinking. I know for a fact that is what they were thinking when they decided to import Genesis and Equus under the Hyundai brand.

Sonata is selling much better than 4-5 years ago, but it is still about half of US sales of Camry and Accord (and Altima is close behind these two) even though Sonata is much less expensive, especially when you compare similarly equipped models. The point is that when Hyundai first decided to import Genesis/Equus under the Hyundai brand, Sonata was doing much worse than it is now. Also, research has shown that there still are a significant number of Accord and Camry buyers who did not even look at a Sonata due to negative brand perception.

So I don't now for sure what the right strategy is, but I just explained the strategy that was laid out by HMA management and that they have executed so far. Hard to argue with overall profitability and sales of Hyundai vehicles in the US in the last few years. But you are correct, that Genesis and Equus are the sacrificial lambs in this strategy, and their sales are probably depressed by the Hyundai brand name. After all, there is a reason why many people rebadge them with the KDM wings.

 

[BacktoHyundaibychoice]

Sigh. I'm happy to have the H on the back of my Equus, and won't rebadge my 2014 in a week or two.
But thank god for the valet pickup and loaner drop off for service!
I hate rubbing elbows with lowly Genesis owners.

 

[Mark_888]

Sigh. I'm happy to have the H on the back of my Equus, and won't rebadge my 2014 in a week or two.
But thank god for the valet pickup and loaner drop off for service!
I hate rubbing elbows with lowly Genesis owners.

By my count, when you get your new Equus soon, that will be 3 different Genesis/ Equus models you have owned (or leased) since 2009. Doesn't sound like you put excessive miles on them either.

 

[BacktoHyundaibychoice]

By my count, when you get your new Equus soon, that will be 3 different Genesis/ Equus models you have owned (or leased) since 2009. Doesn't sound like you put excessive miles on them either.

Yep. '09 Gen 4.6, '11 Equus (same 4.6/ZF). The Equus has 25K, 10K of which is Chicago/Florida trips.
And it's actually since late '08.
Time flies.