2011 Questions

[Henry]

Does any know if a 8 speed automatic transmission will be offered and cooled passenger seating?

 

[DavidNJ]

The transmission is rumored, nothing on the seat. Note: the Equus, with the same powertrain, is so far being advertised with a 6-speed automatic.

At the NY Auto Show, asking the questions was like talking to Sergeant Schultz.

 

[Mark_888]

Does any know if a 8 speed automatic transmission will be offered and cooled passenger seating?

I would take the 6-speed ZF transmission over an 8-speed Hyundai transmission every time.

 

[LasVegasGenesis]

any word on the 5.0 V8. Ive seen images of that on the truck of an equus and am wondering if anyone knows when its going to come. Have a 4.6 genesis now and will be getting an equus when they arrive buy will wait if there's a bigger engine coming

 

[Dimitry]

I think they decided to scrap the 8 speed in-house for the new 8 speed ZF.

Maybe the 5.0 will be offered in the fully loaded version of the Equus, but I think it will be the 4.6 all around. If anything, GDI should be right around the corner in the next few MYs, which should give a nice boost to the Tau.

 

[JamesD]

I think they decided to scrap the 8 speed in-house for the new 8 speed ZF.

On what do you base that, Dimitry? ZF gearboxes have always been very expensive (and very good). It would be very much in Hyundai's interest to replace that transmission, if they are technologically capable of doing so. But automatic transmissions are incredibly difficult to build from scratch; it takes companies like ZF and Aisin and Borg Warner and GM Hydramatic, who have literally generations of experience to be successful at it.

I agree with Mark 888...given a choice, I'd take the ZF 6HPXX over a new Hyundai design any day of the week, no disrespect to Hyundai intended. In fact, based on what I've read, I'd rather have the ZF 6-speed than the ZF 8-speed. Given that we all had 3-speed autos with 4-,6-, and 8 cylinder engines until a few years ago, I have a hard time accepting that I need 8 forward gears in a tranny mated with a powerful V8. With the 6-speed, the 1-2 upshift is already disconcertingly quick off the line, and people are actually complaining that the 8-speed just plain shifts too early.

I have to laugh when I read reviewers talk about how buttery-smooth this new generation of gearboxes is. Modern trannies shift based partially on an emission profile, as well as protecting torque excesses while they're shifting. As a result, I have yet to experience a "modern" box that can shift in the same smoothness league as the monster GM THM-400 or THM-350...THOSE transmissions were smooth.

 

[jwaters943]

I'm pretty sure he's basing it on this thread: http://www.genesisowners.com/hyundai-genesis-forum/showthread.php?t=4767&highlight=2011+Genesis

We're a few months from knowing for sure, but rumors have begun swirling recently that Hyundai will be using a ZF 8 speed auto in the Genesis in place of their forthcoming in-house developed unit.

 

[Dimitry]

Yep - Based it on that article, and I don't think that Hyundai would put out something that competes with the ZF. ZF has so many years under their belts with these trannies, they're gold as it is. Maybe they'll surprise us again though...

I'm looking to add another Genesis/Equus to the lineup, hopefully the Tau gets a lift sometime in 2011 with GDI, much like the mid-year 385hp lift to the 2010MY. We'll only know when they get here, I don't think they'll spill that anytime soon.

 

[oldtimer]

I'm surprised you gentlemen have not taken advantage of Hyundai's media website. All info regarding Equus is there.
http://hyundaisnews.com/index.asp

Have fun

 

[VivienM]

On what do you base that, Dimitry? ZF gearboxes have always been very expensive (and very good). It would be very much in Hyundai's interest to replace that transmission, if they are technologically capable of doing so. But automatic transmissions are incredibly difficult to build from scratch; it takes companies like ZF and Aisin and Borg Warner and GM Hydramatic, who have literally generations of experience to be successful at it.

Hyundai makes all their own FWD auto transmissions... including the new 6 speed in the Sonata.

I'd assume a lot of the engineering expertise can be transferred to work on a RWD transmission...

The bigger question, though, is whether they can justify the fixed R&D costs. If it's just for the low-volume Genesis/Equus/Genesis Coupe, it may make more sense to keep buying from ZF or Aisin.

But:
1) Can they get ZF's 8 speed? Or Aisin's 8 speed? It wouldn't surprise me if BMW had exclusivity for a few years on the ZF, and Lexus on the Aisin.
2) Do they still have additional RWD plans, e.g. a pickup truck? (I've long thought one reason they spent all this money on a V8 was so they could use a differently-tuned version in a pickup truck. But with the decline in pickup sales, along with the failure of Nissan's Titan and Toyota's Tundra, it may not be the best time for Hyundai to enter that market.)

______________________________

Help support this site so it can continue supporting you!

 

[VivienM]

I have to laugh when I read reviewers talk about how buttery-smooth this new generation of gearboxes is. Modern trannies shift based partially on an emission profile, as well as protecting torque excesses while they're shifting. As a result, I have yet to experience a "modern" box that can shift in the same smoothness league as the monster GM THM-400 or THM-350...THOSE transmissions were smooth.

I think the reviewers are comparing this generation of auto trannies with what foreign automakers were offering 10-15 years ago. There's certainly a huge, huge, huge improvement there...

 

[Mark_888]

Both the Genesis and the Equus contain a fairly large number of purchased components and technology. There are two reasons for this:

1. The manufacturing volumes of these cars is not significant enough to justify the development cost, especially since with CAFE on the horizon, Hyundai is moving away from even V6 technology (such as in the 2011 Sonata). As already noted, RWD transmissions are a different breed from FWD ones, and the future of energy efficient vehicles is still with FWD. Hyundai is expecting to sell 3.5 million vehicles in 2010, and Genesis/Equus are a drop in the bucket.
2. The Genesis and Equus are prestige cars designed as much to improve the brand image of Hyundai as they are to actually be profitable in their own right. This often means purchasing best of breed technology from others, especially if that technology enhances the reliability image of Hyundai (as it would with the ZF and Aisin transmissions).

 

[ASHDUMP]

Here in the USA I think there has to be a combined MPG of 35. So if the Genny, Equus get around 25 and the other models get 38+ the companies are meeting the CAFE standards signed into law by Obama right?

I thought I heard that on the news.... I haven't done any research myself.

 

[Mark_888]

Here in the USA I think there has to be a combined MPG of 35. So if the Genny, Equus get around 25 and the other models get 38+ the companies are meeting the CAFE standards signed into law by Obama right?

I thought I heard that on the news.... I haven't done any research myself.

That is more or less correct (it is a Corporate Average Fuel Economy standard based on the number of cars actually produced/sold). But raising the others from 35 to 38 is not so easy.

Actually, the auto companies can exceed 35 mpg, but they have pay money to the government for the privilege. This may be OK for luxury car manufacturers, but it is hard to pass those fees on to economy car buyers.

 

[jwaters943]

If they exceed 35mpg they have to pay the government? Seriously?

I thought if they exceeded 35mpg they could sell "credits" to other automakers who aren't meeting the CAFE requirement.

BTW, Hyundai has 5 vehicles that I know of that are coming out within the next 2 years that should get approx. 40mpg on the highway, or better (Sonata Hybrid, new Elantra, new Accent, new Tiburon replacement, and an extended range electric vehicle w/ on board gasoline motor ala Chevy Volt).

 

[Mark_888]

If they exceed 35mpg they have to pay the government? Seriously?

I thought if they exceeded 35mpg they could sell "credits" to other automakers who aren't meeting the CAFE requirement.

BTW, Hyundai has 5 vehicles that I know of that are coming out within the next 2 years that should get approx. 40mpg on the highway, or better (Sonata Hybrid, new Elantra, new Accent, new Tiburon replacement, and an extended range electric vehicle w/ on board gasoline motor ala Chevy Volt).

If the corporate average exceeds 35 mpg (or whatever the standard is) they have to pay somebody. They can purchase credits from other car manufacturers who exceed 35 mpg, but not sure how likely that will be since luxury cars are more profitable than economy cars, and not too many manufacturers will be exceeding it by much.

The other thing that is not clear to me, is whether the 35 mpg is city, highway, or combined average.

 

[jwaters943]

According to what I've read, CAFE valued are determined by combining the city and highway rating.
See CAFE section: http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/420f04053.htm


In reference to "credits", they can accumulate them for up to 3 yars and use them in the future if they fail to meet the deadline or sell them to other automakers who are failing to meet the deadline (not an ideal predicament to be in since this will only increase the pricing of the cars sold by automakers who aren't meeting the requirements). I don't automakers have to "pay" anyone if they exceed CAFE requirements. Automakers also get additional incentives for building cars that are capable of running on E85 Ethanol (gotta keep that corn production up...lol).

From wiki:

Manufacturers are also allowed to earn CAFE "credits" in any year they exceed CAFE requirements, which they may use to offset deficiencies in other years. CAFE credits can be applied to the three years before or after the year in which they are earned. The reason for this flexibility is so manufacturers are penalized only for persistent failure to meet the requirements, not for transient non-compliance due to market conditions.

Just to clarify, the upcoming CAFE requirements are as follows:

2012: 33.3 for cars and 25.4 for trucks
2016: 37.8 for cars and 28.8 for trucks

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/04/0...andards-officially-released-34-1-mpg-by-2016/

 

[Mark_888]

I don't automakers have to "pay" anyone if they exceed CAFE requirements. Automakers also get additional incentives for building cars that are capable of running on E85 Ethanol (gotta keep that corn production up...lol).

From wiki:

Manufacturers are also allowed to earn CAFE "credits" in any year they exceed CAFE requirements, which they may use to offset deficiencies in other years. CAFE credits can be applied to the three years before or after the year in which they are earned. The reason for this flexibility is so manufacturers are penalized only for persistent failure to meet the requirements, not for transient non-compliance due to market conditions.

If they don't have to pay anyone for exceeding CAFE, then why would they worry about off-setting deficiencies in other years? I thought some automakers are already paying a gas-guzzler tax that is usually passed on to consumers in the price (but not sure if that is the same thing).

 

[jwaters943]

Maybe our issue lies in the word 'exceed'???

By exceed, I mean building cars that get higher MPG than the CAFE mandate. Getting better MPG than what is required shouldn't, and to the best of my knowledge is/will not be penalized.

As for your question, maybe they're planning on most/all automakers being able to meet the 2012 requirements, but are worried that some might need a couple more years to comply with the 2016 requirements and are giving them a bit of leeway by allowing them to accrue credits necessary to help pull their CAFE numbers up to compliance by using these credits in place of actually complying with the law by 2016. If they accrue enough credits they could theoretically stretch out the time by which they meet CAFE requirements another 3 years, or approx. 10 years from the time these new requirements were first announced.

 

[Mark_888]

I was assuming that automakers could just pay a fine if they exceeded the CAFE limits, but maybe not. I guess they can only purchase credits (if any other automakers have them for sale). I think those credits are going to be very expensive.

I suspect that cars like the Genesis (especially the V8) and Equus are going to rise in price dramatically to keep demand down, and to achieve CAFE for Hyundai. Either that, or there is going to be a Genesis Hybrid by 2016 with less total horsepower than we have today.