2020 G70 3.3T solid lifter ticking discussion/ answers

[PKD]

Hello everyone, new to forum and a Technician since 1985. Was curious about the ticking noise at start up on my G70 3.3T HTRAC Sport, 14K miles and found answers and questions on here. So I thought I might share some tech for folks like us who like our cars and like to be informed.

I know of "solid-lifters" in hotrods and race engines, but had never really studied them. I knew they were always noisier and that was just "solid-lifters".

So one or more members here knows they are solid lifters and is right in that if the noise goes away fairly quickly that it's technically normal.

Now the important part to me was why it's normal. I believe understanding brings peace and wisdom, "no worries".

So solid lifters are just that, solid round lifters that only expand with heat and therfore the space between the rod to the rocker arm is called "lash". It's what's created when adjusting the rocker arms.

Most engine builders in a "factory" setting would leave thousandths to allow for warm up expansion so that the valves don't end up hung open on their respective "stroke"; exhaust or compression stroke.

Zero lash would basically take away tick on cold start but could cause wear because of being tight once expanded or the other mentioned above. "Zero is "perfect", race engines are often set that way.

Solid lifters are better because the don't have anything else needed to work, they are "solid", therefore the perform better, more efficiently, consistently they Rev higher with more stability and therefore make more power.

Hydraulic lifters have many parts inside them to work, need oil pressure to work and they change in length as needed based solely on the spring inside and oil psi delivered. This being said, each lifter can work differently based on if the spring is identical inside and the pressure to each lifter is identical; which is an engineering calculation or lack thereof. Basically an easier way to not have an exact need for valves to have to be exact; therfore not synced an inconsistencies in power. Less time for assembly lines, more money for Dealers.
Customers would never notice this and would like the quiet motor. That is until they use the wrong oil or cheap oil or the wrong weight, which changes valve train performance.

There are vehicles out there that end up with misfires or "drivability" problems (codes) that "technicians" end up having to change the oil and filter type because the oil change place or customer was running the wrong weight oil; hence hydraulic lifters. Parts often replaced or engines until manufacturers get them back under warranty and find or write-up a TSB to dealers that problem is only an oil lift problems or recommend different weight or updated filters or to just change oil back to factory oil and then retest.

I went out on the web with the basic question, Solid vs. Hydraulic lifters?

You'll find we have a more precise "race style" engine and yes, lifters can be adjusted, but comments say they rarely will ever need it in the consumer market.

If the independent Dealerships cared enough or were "smart"/technical enough they would give this answer to "us" type customers and we would walk away smiling or cheering, instead of them just saying it's normal. And or the manufacturers could and sometimes do, send out "customer letters" with the lengthier explanation which would improve there profits and retention to brand.

I was in Dealerships for 16yrs. and unfortunately they normally aren't informed of why and their techs don't normally care to share if they did know because they would loose money explaining it and most people wouldn't understand or might not appreciate or believe them.

Worst of all most techs just don't care, and I say this from experience, caring cost money in the short run. But can create huge gains in years and decades and incredible brand retention.

Hence the vicious cycle of most car folks and especially enthusiasts finding disappointing and truly bad experiences everywhere they go.

Hope this helps, sorry so long, but this is why most techs just don't help; I'm not most, I'm very rare; and I say this humbly, not bragging.

Oh yeah, and if you look at the Motor Trend piece I attached, you will see that Hydraulic was a cheap easy way for manufacturers to make engines quicker and less precise because Hydraulic zero lashes itself and "absorbs" imperfections in valve train, but as you'll read, that's not good ultimately. Just Google the title from screen shot or type in>>

>>"Solid vs. Hydraulic lifters" for tons of articles and real-time dynos with change out of Hydraulic to Solid lifters; Torq and Horsepower gained.

Our Twin turbo 3.3's have tons of torq which spins motor up very fast, so technically it seems the quality we see inside these cars is in the engine also.

By the way, Torq is what gets ya going(off the line), H.P. is what keeps ya going, fact.

And 5.0L, if you have solid lifters, they've taken time to make yours better also.

We all know that better isn't normally easier, and easy ain't always good!

PKD

 

[Slip_Angle]

@PKD Great explanation and thanks for taking the time to write it! I've had a G70 going on 5 years now.. 2019 and now a 2023. I knew the tick was normal but never really looking into the why of it. Pretty cool, just like the sodium filled valves in our engine.

Many people on this forum love to learn and share info, so we welcome your input!

 

[JCtx]

Always nice to have tech talks. Ha ha. The first thing we need to clarify here is that we're not really talking about 'lifters', since those belong to push-rod engines. And that's what that article talks about. Not sure what the correct term for DOHC engines is, but I believe is 'tappet'. So 2 different beasts IMO. The principle is obviously the same, but I believe the lash difference is much more pronounced on a hydraulic lifter than a hydraulic tappet, where it's absolutely minimal. And you don't have to deal with 'preload', which is critical. In addition, there's absolutely no need for a solid tappet on an engine barely revving above 6 grand, so that's another consideration that is not there. I tried googling info on solid vs hydraulic tappets, but couldn't find any. All I remember reading in the past is that it was a cost consideration on a 'low'-revving street engine, and by 'low' is anything less than 7K rpm. And like on anything else, not all hydraulic tappets (or any other part) is the same, so we can never generalize on anything, since most likely there's is an alternative that does away with typical shortcomings (but worth more $$$, of course), which is also the case for hydraulic lifters. Interesting conversation. Hopefully you can find an article on actual DOHC engines PKD. And thank you for posting .

 

[Bigsaucy71]

thanks for sharing , first thing i noticed on start-up with the g70 was the noise, it was concerning to until i did a little research

 

[PKD]

Always nice to have tech talks. Ha ha. The first thing we need to clarify here is that we're not really talking about 'lifters', since those belong to push-rod engines. And that's what that article talks about. Not sure what the correct term for DOHC engines is, but I believe is 'tappet'. So 2 different beasts IMO. The principle is obviously the same, but I believe the lash difference is much more pronounced on a hydraulic lifter than a hydraulic tappet, where it's absolutely minimal. And you don't have to deal with 'preload', which is critical. In addition, there's absolutely no need for a solid tappet on an engine barely revving above 6 grand, so that's another consideration that is not there. I tried googling info on solid vs hydraulic tappets, but couldn't find any. All I remember reading in the past is that it was a cost consideration on a 'low'-revving street engine, and by 'low' is anything less than 7K rpm. And like on anything else, not all hydraulic tappets (or any other part) is the same, so we can never generalize on anything, since most likely there's is an alternative that does away with typical shortcomings (but worth more $$$, of course), which is also the case for hydraulic lifters. Interesting conversation. Hopefully you can find an article on actual DOHC engines PKD. And thank you for posting .

Hey there you are correct on the term "tappet" because they are just like a lifter but "technically" they are being pushed down by the cam lobes directly to the valve stem which is why DOHC, SOHC is so widely used now; much more efficient.
They are shorter, bigger around because the camshaft lobe has to stroke by it, but same principle as a lifter, but no rod under it being pushed upward by the single cam in the middle of the block that moves the rocker arms to push down the valves (open valves with springs closing them).

I'm older and am very used to the term lifter and the parts world and even Alldata pro still refers to them as lifters/lash adjusters(last term is correct).
But I did find "tappet" in actual engine work procedures of adjusting valve clearance. Pictures attatched.

Funny they're not getting "tapped" on but pushed down instead of up. "Pushers"

Be well

 

[PKD]

Always nice to have tech talks. Ha ha. The first thing we need to clarify here is that we're not really talking about 'lifters', since those belong to push-rod engines. And that's what that article talks about. Not sure what the correct term for DOHC engines is, but I believe is 'tappet'. So 2 different beasts IMO. The principle is obviously the same, but I believe the lash difference is much more pronounced on a hydraulic lifter than a hydraulic tappet, where it's absolutely minimal. And you don't have to deal with 'preload', which is critical. In addition, there's absolutely no need for a solid tappet on an engine barely revving above 6 grand, so that's another consideration that is not there. I tried googling info on solid vs hydraulic tappets, but couldn't find any. All I remember reading in the past is that it was a cost consideration on a 'low'-revving street engine, and by 'low' is anything less than 7K rpm. And like on anything else, not all hydraulic tappets (or any other part) is the same, so we can never generalize on anything, since most likely there's is an alternative that does away with typical shortcomings (but worth more $$$, of course), which is also the case for hydraulic lifters. Interesting conversation. Hopefully you can find an article on actual DOHC engines PKD. And thank you for posting .

Forgot to talk about reasoning behind solid vs hydraulic and your point about 6500-7000rpm being "low".

Yes as far as true race engines go, many still only rotate safely to 8500-9000.

Lifters engines were "turning fast at 4500 to a max of 5500 and the cams normally ran out above 5000 anyway.

So technically we have just gotten use to 6500-7000 as "not high revving". Maybe compared to Japanese and motorcycles, but solid is still used for precision for how quickly they turn up to 6500-7000, & accurately. Just like push rod motors having so many parts which makes them less efficient and less able to turn up quickly without breaking, the hydraulic lifter is full of parts and not very accurate, which is why it's so widely used. Not because it's not accurate but because manufacturers don't have to be as accurate in building or quality control on milling parts to exact specs, because the hydraulic lifter makes up for that but has lots of down sides when it comes to performing even at low RPM, and precise idle is affected.

I've had lots of push rod motors and remember my dad telling me "try" to not push them over 4000rpm all the time. My mustang 5.0L were dogs and back then; we thought they were fast.

Now the new Coyote 5.0, over head cam motors are fantastic with 7200rpm at no problem; set at 6800 from factory.

The 3.3TT was set up this way so it wouldn't have problems even when pushed hard. It is capable of 800hp as I have researched with builders, stock bottom end.

Over-building just helps the lack of problems and cost them more which is impressive to me and is better for us, "the customer". After all this is there "performance" engine and with a simple tune and AWD can leave Mustangs, Camaros and many other "performance vehicles" like there sitting still. Heck they do that stock, but a tune or new ECM/TCM brings 450hp rear wheel horse.

LITTLE tick is good with me, WHEN I understand WHY!

The fact that the engine work replacement of these requires the lash has to be adjusted proves they are indeed solid tappets/"lifters"/lash adjusters(pushers).

Thanks for the conversation and FACTS!

Here's some pictures of truth about hydraulic and solid "lifters"/tappets and a picture of how much stuff is inside an hydraulic lifter. The article even calls the OHC(Over Head Cam) a "lifter", )but picture says tappet). Probably so that the regular person doesn't get confused with terms they've never even heard of; that's my guess. The article talks about hydraulic "lifters" starting in 1950's. So the term lifter has been around since most of us were born. Tappets came around maybe last two decades. Ford started there Muatang overhead cam, SOHC in the late 90's, 4.6L. Mustang guys hated that they got rid of the 5.0 badging, and that "modular motor" wasn't great.

These kind of subjects can go on forever; I'm getting something to eat.

Patrick

 

[Scotang]

Awesome information! It really helps understanding what is going on with your vehicle when you're driving it. I just picked up a 2021 3.3T Sport last month and worried I was already needing repairs. Still learning the car, but it's already a beast! I was hesitant on installing the JB4 tune I purchased but now I have peace of mind. Thanks so much !

 

[Bigsaucy71]

Awesome information! It really helps understanding what is going on with your vehicle when you're driving it. I just picked up a 2021 3.3T Sport last month and worried I was already needing repairs. Still learning the car, but it's already a beast! I was hesitant on installing the JB4 tune I purchased but now I have peace of mind. Thanks so much !
[/QUOTE

The Jb4 is a nice upgrade from stock I’ve moved to a full ecu tune but still using Jb4 for logging