A rant about quality - Truth or Myth?

[bluegenesisfl]

Stop reading if you think this is about quality issues with the 2015 Genesis. It's not.

My last 5 cars have Korean designed, 4 built in Korea, one built in the USA. - 2011 Kia Forte SX 5 door, 2011 Hyundai Genesis V-6 Premium, 2013 Hyundai Veloster Premium Tech, 2014 Hyundai Elantra Limited, and 2015 Hyundai Genesis V-6 Signature Tech.

Prior to these cars, I have owned 83 other automobiles and trucks. These have included -

VW, MB, BWM, Jaguar, Porsche, Chevy, Pontiac, Toyota, Lexus, Infiniti, DKW, Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Plymouth, etc.

I probably missed some brands. You get the picture, I am and will be, until I die, a major gear head. I average 40-60 K miles a year, even in retirement. I love to drive!

I take very good care of my cars, and until recently performed most of the regular maintenance myself. Oil changes, pads, tune-up's, valve adjustments, tire rotations, detailing, etc.

My intimate experience with such a wide variety of vehicles over the years has been rewarding and a lot of fun. It has given me a certain perspective about cars and quality.

Let's make sure that I make clear that quality as a trait in a car, and a lot of fancy features, are not necessarily the same! Sometimes the best form of quality is just in the real simplicity of a particular design and it's resulting manufacture.

Personally, I have had really good luck with both new and used cars. The only car that has ever broke down on the side of the road was a MB SEL, but it was only an easily replaceable fan belt.

The point of this posting is that many car enthusiasts and ordinary folks keep raving about the quality of certain British, German and Japanese brands and especially their driving qualities. They are completely brainwashed. I few examples here-

*I take a BMW 3 coupe in for new door seals (they failed 3 times, and were failed when I traded it), they give me a loaner, and later call me to say the repair will take a little longer as they have to replace the whole AC system, and the sunroof cassette. Good service and under warranty, but what the hell! Had it been out of warranty what would that have cost?

*I notice that my Lexus GS rattles on start-up, and get a recall notice from Lexus about valve train issues. They give me a loaner and spent 2 weeks fixing it. 3 months later, I get another recall for valve train issues, and repeat the same cycle. Great service, but 2 recalls for the same issue? I understand that they are still having they same issues as recently as last year.

I could go though the list of cars with other stories, especially the Jaguar (never, ever, ever, again), but you get the picture.

On the other hand my Hyundai / Kia products have been very trouble free. The one exception being needing a new navigation head unit on the 2011 Genesis.

By the way, if you live in Central Florida, Red Hoagland Hyundai has a fantastic service department. Their service is every bit as good as the best Lexus dealer I have ever visited.

In my opinion Hyundai / Kia has changed their products so much since 2007, as to be essentially a totally different company. Myths aside, these cars also drive very good and are great handling machines. I used to race in various sports car series. Sometimes just a change in tires on a Hyundai will transform the drive, ride, and handling characteristics dramatically.

The individuals who rave about Lexus, Infiniti, Audi, MB, BMW, VW, etc. are blind to the fact that there is a new leader in quality automobiles. Hyundai / Kia while not perfect are really the quality pacesetters in the market today.

 

[salvo]

Thanks,,great post...U make me feel better about the Genny I bought,,,,same car as yours and have 1000 miles on it and still am not sure I made right purchase...I hear so many horror stories about service at Hyundai and am apprehensive of dealing with Hyundai service and the experience but your post makes me feel more secure...Thanks again...I live in Tampa bay and wish could use the dealer u mentioned..

 

[Mark_888]

I notice that my Lexus GS rattles on start-up, and get a recall notice from Lexus about valve train issues. They give me a loaner and spent 2 weeks fixing it. 3 months later, I get another recall for valve train issues, and repeat the same cycle. Great service, but 2 recalls for the same issue?

I think you are 100% wrong about this. A recall is not a necessarily a sign of poor quality, but often a sign of willingness of a manufacturer to stand behind their vehicles. I realize that this is not conventional wisdom drummed into consumers by the media, who think that companies without recalls have higher quality cars than those that do.

Looking at the history of the Hyundai Genesis problems (2009 suspension, 2009-2010 brake system failure, 2012 5.0 oil consumption problem), HMA has generally refused to stand behind their product unless forced to by the NHTSA (brake problem), and even then their response has been half-assed IMO. HMA has replaced some 2012 5.0 engines with excess oil consumption, but only after much initial stonewalling and denial (and it is still not a recall, so owners have to complain first).

Regarding reliability of German cars, I don't see a lot people who rave about that. German cars may be fun to drive, but no one I know has said the are inexpensive to maintain once out of warranty. I do believe that Toyota/Lexus is generally very reliable, and that statistics prove that out, but no automaker is perfect.

 

[PMCErnie]

This thread probably belongs in the Owner's Lounge forum.

 

[bluegenesisfl]

Mark_888 -

I appreciate your response. About Hyundai's response to various issues that you pointed out, my personal experience has been different.

Example - my wife and I were at Amelia Island this year for the Concours and the 4 year old battery died in our 2011 Genesis in downtown Fernandina Beach. With in 30 minutes Hyundai had a service truck to jump us off, had called the nearest dealer (in Jacksonville) and confirmed that they had the correct battery we needed, and set an appointment to have it installed within the next hour. We arrived at the dealer and our car was immediately taken in for service, and we were done with the replacement in 30 minutes, the cost pro-rated of course, was partially covered under warranty.

I suspect that the quality of the individual Hyundai dealerships has lot to do with it. Also it appears from what I have heard personally, and as seen on the internet, that the quality of Hyundai's regional representatives, especially with respect to warranty issues, varies a lot across the country.

If the internet is to be believed, here in Central Florida, we have several dealers who provide good levels of service, and who are able to work with Hyundai to get issues resolved in a satisfactory manner.

Hopefully, Hyundai is working to improve the customer experience elsewhere in the US.

 

[Mark_888]

Mark_888 -

I appreciate your response. About Hyundai's response to various issues that you pointed out, my personal experience has been different.

Example - my wife and I were at Amelia Island this year for the Concours and the 4 year old battery died in our 2011 Genesis in downtown Fernandina Beach. With in 30 minutes Hyundai had a service truck to jump us off, had called the nearest dealer (in Jacksonville) and confirmed that they had the correct battery we needed, and set an appointment to have it installed within the next hour. We arrived at the dealer and our car was immediately taken in for service, and we were done with the replacement in 30 minutes, the cost pro-rated of course, was partially covered under warranty.

I suspect that the quality of the individual Hyundai dealerships has lot to do with it. Also it appears from what I have heard personally, and as seen on the internet, that the quality of Hyundai's regional representatives, especially with respect to warranty issues, varies a lot across the country.

If the internet is to be believed, here in Central Florida, we have several dealers who provide good levels of service, and who are able to work with Hyundai to get issues resolved in a satisfactory manner.

Hopefully, Hyundai is working to improve the customer experience elsewhere in the US.

I think we are talking about 2 different things here: Dealer service, and Hyundai product quality (along with Hyundai Motor America who is the US distributor and provides the warranty).

We can talk about dealer service all day long, and the bottom line is that it varies by dealer. Has very little to do with the brand, and the manufacturer does not have as much control over dealers as people seem to think. Also, there is a big difference with how hard a dealer works to make the experience better (nice lounges, loaner cars, etc) versus whether their mechanics know what they are doing.

Regarding your experience with your battery: Hyundai provides road side assistance (through a third party company) for the first 5 years, and they prorate the warranty on your battery. You seem to be giving Hyundai come kind of extra credit for something they are obligated to do per the terms of their advertised warranty. In any case, this has little to do with the overall quality of the cars that Hyundai's build.

I do agree that Hyundai has made remarkable quality improvements over the last 10-15 years. I also agree that Base Trim Models are much more reliable than the fully loaded ones. I don't agree that they are at the very top of quality/reliability in the business, since I have seen hard stats that don't confirm that, but they are certainly at least average to above average. But I don't believe that HMA has done a good job of standing behind they cars when they do have problems. In effect, they have too few, not too many, recalls.

 

[Aquineas]

All manufacturers have their black marks; Toyota's only recalling Takata airbags in Florida, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands, even then ten years after the fact. And we won't bother to mention Toyota V6 engine sludging.

 

[EXBMWGUY]

And we won't bother to mention Toyota V6 engine sludging.

^ Engine lubrication design was done in a high school shop class.

 

[LA Genesis]

I think we can all agree Hyundai has improved significantly since the old days when a Chrysler K car was better built than any Hyundai (ok exaggerating a little). After owning a 2015 for one month I can tell it is improved from my 2012.

To claim Hyundai is the quality pacesetter in the auto industry is a bit much. Lexus quality ratings surpass Hyundai by virtually every credible source. I do believe, however, that Hyundai is becoming a leader in value and perhaps styling.

 

[Mark_888]

All manufacturers have their black marks; Toyota's only recalling Takata airbags in Florida, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands, even then ten years after the fact. And we won't bother to mention Toyota V6 engine sludging.

I owned a Toyota for 11 years (85K miles) with the V6 engine that was supposedly prone to sludging. I think there are two aspects to this.

• Toyota sold a huge number of vehicles with that V6 engine over the applicable time period. Some people just do not change their oil on a timely basis. I would bet that about 5% of the public (1 in 20 people) do not change their oil in more than once every 25,000 miles on a Toyota. When you sell a very large number of vehicles then 5% (or even 1%) would be tens of thousands of vehicles with insufficient oil changes. I don't think anyone who did proper oil changes had any problems.
• I personally used Mobil 1 synthetic for the entire 11 years I had the Toyota V6, and the engine was in perfect condition when I sold it, and never had any mechanical problems whatsoever. I hated to get rid of the car when in such perfect mechanical condition, but I was getting a little embarrassed driving around in a 11 year old car, so I got rid of it.

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[Aquineas]

I owned a Toyota for 11 years (85K miles) with the V6 engine that was supposedly prone to sludging. I think there are two aspects to this.

• Toyota sold a huge number of vehicles with that V6 engine over the applicable time period. Some people just do not change their oil on a timely basis. I would bet that about 5% of the public (1 in 20 people) do not change their oil in more than once every 25,000 miles on a Toyota. When you sell a very large number of vehicles then 5% (or even 1%) would be tens of thousands of vehicles with insufficient oil changes. I don't think anyone who did proper oil changes had any problems.
  <snip>

I personally worked with two people, one a fellow engineer who had problems with his 3.0 Camry who was meticulous about changing his oil by the manufacturer recommended schedule. That's not the worst part about it; every manufacturer has some problems here and there. The worst part was Toyota initially tried to deny his warranty claim because the dealer said he didn't change the oil every 3000 miles, until he showed them the owner's manual where it was a higher frequency (he also had to dig up all his oil change paperwork before they would honor the warranty).

The other individual was an RX300 owner that Toyota insisted on rebuilding his engine (rather than replacing it), and it died on him on a highway 1500 miles from home. So while I'm not denying you had a good experience, every manufacturer has warts, and they're not all altruistic about owning up to their problems.

 

[jimb100]

Quality is not a very precise word. It means different things to different people.

A car, being quite complex, confuses the issue more.

If your car has a great paint job, is it a "quality" car? Even if it breaks down every other day.

To some, quality means fit, finish and materials, to others its freedom from parts failure.

All auto components have a mean time between failure as do all components used in manufacturing. Of course, there is a range and then there are outliers. The more complex the car, the more likely some component will failure before expected and most will fail within the expected time frame.

Some failures are the result of design and engineering issues. Usually, these can be found by testing and, by all accounts, Lexus does an excellent job of testing to eliminate design errors as do the Germans.

American cars don't have that same reputation.

So when the word "quality" gets thrown around, I think of fit, finish and materials, freedom from breakdowns (long MTBF) and freedom from design/engineering errors.

Frankly, paying a high price doesn't mean you'll get all 3 (Jaguar) or it may (Lexus).

 

[Aquineas]

deleted

 

[Alwaysforward]

I have a Montecito Blue 5.0 Ultimate. I too look at the all the alignments from panel to panel. Mine are all a perfect fit. My guess is they didn't adjust the fit-up once the dealer received the car or when it came off the boat.

 

[ckon]

IMO, quality is also harder to determine in recent years. Previously, fit and finish was a good indicator of quality and care taken in assembly - not really true anymore. Now, with robots and therefore tighter tolerances, much cheaper cars can be assembled with cheaper parts in a manner that disguises the corners cut in their design and production making it look like higher quality than it really is.

 

[Mark_888]

I personally worked with two people, one a fellow engineer who had problems with his 3.0 Camry who was meticulous about changing his oil by the manufacturer recommended schedule. That's not the worst part about it; every manufacturer has some problems here and there. The worst part was Toyota initially tried to deny his warranty claim because the dealer said he didn't change the oil every 3000 miles, until he showed them the owner's manual where it was a higher frequency (he also had to dig up all his oil change paperwork before they would honor the warranty).

The other individual was an RX300 owner that Toyota insisted on rebuilding his engine (rather than replacing it), and it died on him on a highway 1500 miles from home. So while I'm not denying you had a good experience, every manufacturer has warts, and they're not all altruistic about owning up to their problems.

Sometimes it is hard to know whether the dealer is denying a warranty claim, or whether Toyota is denying it. Dealers make very little money doing warranty work, since they are reimbursed by Toyota at a much lower hourly rate than they normally charge, and they don't make anything on the parts. So dealers are incented to tell customers it is not under warranty, without any feedback from the manufacturer. There are plenty of similar complaints about Hyundai dealers and warranty claims expressed on this forum.

With regard to your friend having to dig up all his receipts, that is standard practice and to be expected by all of us who do our own oil changes. I can't imagine that anyone would expect for the manufacturer to take the owner's word for it that they changed the oil on time, every time. But I was not suggesting that Toyota is more altruistic than other automakers when it comes to warranty claims, just that from every statistical study I have seen Toyota vehicles are the most reliable overall. But obviously, all automakers have some reliability problems.

With regard to my Toyota V6, I suspect that Mobil 1 saved my ass and prevented any kind of sludge buildup in my engine. Toyota and Honda have finally wised up and now require synthetic oil for most of their cars (they don't say "synthetic" but they specify 0W-20 which only comes in synthetic). People who say synthetic is a waste of money are wrong IMO.

 

[Mark_888]

IMO, quality is also harder to determine in recent years. Previously, fit and finish was a good indicator of quality and care taken in assembly - not really true anymore. Now, with robots and therefore tighter tolerances, much cheaper cars can be assembled with cheaper parts in a manner that disguises the corners cut in their design and production making it look like higher quality than it really is.

This is obviously a mater of personal preference, but I don't care that much about researching what others think about fit and finish. I can determine fit and finish by inspecting a new car, and decide for myself whether I want it or not.

What I do care about is reliability of the major systems in the car, including drivetrain, electronics, suspension, brakes, etc. Those kinds of things are hard to know up front, except by examining statistics compiled by organizations like Consumer Reports, whose members submit over 1 million reliability ratings (at the component level) for vehicles each year. Obviously, this forum is also an excellent source of information. But for new vehicle designs, it is obviously quite a bit harder.

 

[Aquineas]

Well admittedly this co-worker definitely wasn't the Mobile-1 type; I've used it for a while now.

 

[Nikgen]

Sometimes it is hard to know whether the dealer is denying a warranty claim, or whether Toyota is denying it. Dealers make very little money doing warranty work, since they are reimbursed by Toyota at a much lower hourly rate than they normally charge, and they don't make anything on the parts. So dealers are incented to tell customers it is not under warranty, without any feedback from the manufacturer. There are plenty of similar complaints about Hyundai dealers and warranty claims expressed on this forum.

With regard to your friend having to dig up all his receipts, that is standard practice and to be expected by all of us who do our own oil changes. I can't imagine that anyone would expect for the manufacturer to take the owner's word for it that they changed the oil on time, every time. But I was not suggesting that Toyota is more altruistic than other automakers when it comes to warranty claims, just that from every statistical study I have seen Toyota vehicles are the most reliable overall. But obviously, all automakers have some reliability problems.

With regard to my Toyota V6, I suspect that Mobil 1 saved my ass and prevented any kind of sludge buildup in my engine. Toyota and Honda have finally wised up and now require synthetic oil for most of their cars (they don't say "synthetic" but they specify 0W-20 which only comes in synthetic). People who say synthetic is a waste of money are wrong IMO.

I just switched my 2015 3.8 AWD to synthetic at the first oil change.

 

[lobsenza]

I switched mine to Mobil 1 at 1300 miles. I am using 0w-30.