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Acceleration times

But here's the caveat, I'm 37 and married with 3 kids. In my 20s, you couldn't pay me to get a 4cyl or a car that didn't go 0-60 in under 6 sec, let alone a sedan. My driving style has changed, and I'd rather have a slower G70 4cylinder manual transmission than a larger but faster Charger Scat Pack or G80 3.3t Sport.

In a few more years the clutch pedal won't be as much fun either. I use one in Europe on a rental now and again, but have not owned one here for years and don't miss it.
Agree with your other comments as well.
 
Some good points made here, a G70 is not a muscle car or sports car but you do want enough performance to make the car fun to drive but not to the point you hit the gas and go sideways, I already have a car that does that, and or lose control but having enough performance to exit an on ramp to match the speed of the traffic or if you have to pass someone enough to do it quickly and safely. Unlike my wife's Honda Fit that could pass a horse drawn carriage. Sorry but the G70 having launch control is kind of funny, I just can't picture these heading to the 1/4 mile track every weekend, all I can picture is kids in the back seat yelling go daddy go! As Bamm1 said it's not a feature you use day to day. I can see this might be attractive to the kids who today are buying the "rice rockets" but I don't see these same kids buying a $50K G70. Unless their do eventually add a performance model like BMW. G70M anyone? I find the 365HP in my G80 is more than enough, it's amazing how quick it feels which makes it that more pleasant to drive.
 
All the reviews I've read on the Stinger 4cyl consistently get under 6 sec for 0-60, which is plenty fast for me.

Interesting, I have had the exact opposite experience. I only recall reading one review that clocked a time below six seconds. Quick search got me:
MT RWD: 6.6
C&D AWD: 6.1
AoA RWD: 5.9

I think the comments regarding launch control are important and raise an issue I hadn't realized. I've never had a car with launch control and so, in every car I've ever had, the 0-60 time was necessarily longer than the 5-60 time (in the sense that it took additional time to get from 0 to 5 MPH). I suspect that the actual methodology of how these tests are done would make a difference, too. If you edge the speed ever-so-gently up to 5 MPH and then floored it, that would yield a different 5-60 time than if you gunned the car from 0 and just started the timer at 5 MPH. Not sure which method is used but I assume it's the latter. That's still very different from using launch control to lock up torque converters with high revs before take-off

Here is how C&D does the test:

Since most owners will seldom subject their cars to brutal launch techniques, we also perform what we call a street-start acceleration test from 5 to 60 mph. While rolling with the car in gear, we floor the accelerator at 5 mph and shift quickly at the optimal shift point.

But you guys are right. If the 0-60 times are an artifact of what launch control brings to those numbers, then it really isn't as relevant as the 5-60 times (or 0-60 times without launch control, which may not be what we're seeing reported). Now, I still suspect that there is a pretty hefty correlation between the 0-60 time even with launch control and the 5-60 time, but the latter would certainly be more important as you consider how the car would drive on a day-to-day basis. I hadn't really considered the launch control impact at all, and it's obviously important. Thanks for educating me on this issue.

Even if launch control is not in the picture there can be little to no correlation between the 0-60 time and the 5-60 time. The “launch” (whether it is with a built in launch control function, brake torquing an automatic, redline clutch dumping a manual, etc.) has a DRAMATIC effect on the times. Turning some cars into “superheroes”. This is especially true for turbo charged models. Take the Cadillac CT6 3.0TT AWD for example. Here are the two different times:

Zero to 60 mph: 5.0 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 6.7 sec

Now here are the acceleration notes from that test:
There's major turbo lag in the rolling 5-60 run. Stomp the accelerator and not much happens; the V-6 takes its sweet time building boost and rpm. Holding the engine against the brake mitigates lag by allowing the engine to build boost before the launch.

I will add that most of the models that use the 3.3T engine have looked pretty good. With the discrepancy between the two (0-60 vs. 5-60) going down as the weight of the model also went down (with the possibility of shift logic, etc. being different from model to model as well).

G90 3.3T HTRAC
Zero to 60 mph: 5.3 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 6.1 sec

G80 Sport HTRAC
Zero to 60 mph: 5.0 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 5.7 sec

Stinger GT RWD
Zero to 60 mph: 4.4 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 5.0 sec
 
Here is how C&D does the test:

Since most owners will seldom subject their cars to brutal launch techniques, we also perform what we call a street-start acceleration test from 5 to 60 mph. While rolling with the car in gear, we floor the accelerator at 5 mph and shift quickly at the optimal shift point.


G80 Sport HTRAC
Zero to 60 mph: 5.0 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 5.7 sec

Thanks for posting that. While the 0-60 times are good for comparing specs and bragging rights, it is not daily driving. The exception is the guys doing stoplight drag racing, of course. Most of us use fast acceleration after we've turned onto the ramp and want to get up to speed to merge. Sure, we do it for fun at times even if no traffic but 1/10 of a second is not noticed.

Stay tuned, after the break we discuss manhood. Is bigger better?
 
I want the car to feel good when I drive it. The actual acceleration is not that important to me- a second either way is no biggie, it's still going to piss all over anything I have ever owned!
 
Thanks for posting that. While the 0-60 times are good for comparing specs and bragging rights, it is not daily driving. The exception is the guys doing stoplight drag racing, of course. Most of us use fast acceleration after we've turned onto the ramp and want to get up to speed to merge. Sure, we do it for fun at times even if no traffic but 1/10 of a second is not noticed.

Stay tuned, after the break we discuss manhood. Is bigger better?

Haha.... Im one who is always intrigued with 0-60 times (owned 2 modified sc300's basically Supra turbos for daily drivers) but as stated by others as I get older I prefer a usable power band for passing etc. .... enough to put a smile on my face.

Interesting scenario this past weekend. Took the wife to look at various Brands (driving through lot when closed) and she liked the Benz C-class, even teh CLA, Infinitis yada, yada, yada, however when I drove through Hyundai lot there were 4 new G80 sports and she immediately says "whats that! those look so aggressive and sexy". I later showed her the G70 and she liked the styling and interior as well.
As i began to brag about the speed of 3.3T and decent power of the 4cylT she could absolutely care less.
Personally I started thinking of buying the G70 3.3T but honestly Im leaning towards saving $$ and buying Htrac 4cyl G70. If I can have decent torque curve for daily driving and plush interior and keep the wifey happy...

I only mention this as 0-60 times seem to have less effect on most buyers..... If a sedan can at least do 0-60 in 6 seconds or less and have a usable torque curve, the average buyer is happy. I believe styling and feel play a much higher role in buying decisions today.
 
Even if launch control is not in the picture there can be little to no correlation between the 0-60 time and the 5-60 time.



I get what you're saying and I appreciate your input. Your description of what launch control does and how it benefits turbocharged cars in particular was very helpful and filled a gap in my knowledge.

But "little or no correlation" I don't think is accurate, at least in the formal sense that I was using the term. Correlation is a way of quantifying, across multiple instances, how similarly specific things (cars, in this case) array themselves. If you took a bunch of cars and timed them 0-60 and plotted a distribution and then took the same cars and plotted a distribution of their 5-60 times, the extent to which each car was in roughly a similar location on the first as on the second distribution determines the strength of the correlation of 0-60 times to 5-60 times. So, even if 0-60 and 5-60 are pretty different, what matters for a substantial correlation to exist is that cars more or less do "better" or "worse" on both. This doesn't mean that the fastest car 0-60 must also be the fastest car 5-60 but that the cars that are, say, in the top third of all cars tested on 0-60, will tend to be somewhere in the top third from 5-60. And not every car needs even to meet that criterion for there to be a substantial correlation. Nor do the cars that do end up in the top third of each distribution need to be in the same order. The fastest car 0-60 might be considerably lower 5-60 (or vice versa) but if it still is in the top third somewhere (and that general pattern is similar for most of the other cars), there will still be a substantial correlation. For there to be no correlation, there would have to be absolutely no relationship whatsoever (which is what "no correlation" means) between the 0-60 and the 5-60 time. So, stated differently the world's fastest car 0-60 would be as likely to be the worlds fastest from 5-60 as it was the world's slowest from 5-60, if the two measures were truly uncorrelated.

"Correlation" really gets used two ways, in the more formal way I've described and in the more casual way that I think you intended. Either is legitimate, depending on the context, and I'm not criticizing you for not using it in the more formal sense, just trying to explain my usage. Used in the more casual way, I totally get your point that the 0-60 and the 5-60 times are a long way from being in perfect lockstep. I was really thinking of the more formal definition because I used to teach this stuff and that's just how I reflexively think about correlation. So, I don't think we're really very much in disagreement so much as we're just using the same term in different ways. Just wanted to explain why I concluded that there would be a substantial correlation between 0-50 and 5-60 times in that more formal sense, as I'm confident there would be over a wide range of cars (far less so, or course, over a very narrow range of cars with very similar power and weight).

Hope that makes sense and provides clarification.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks for posting that. While the 0-60 times are good for comparing specs and bragging rights, it is not daily driving. The exception is the guys doing stoplight drag racing, of course. Most of us use fast acceleration after we've turned onto the ramp and want to get up to speed to merge. Sure, we do it for fun at times even if no traffic but 1/10 of a second is not noticed.

Stay tuned, after the break we discuss manhood. Is bigger better?



I'm not sure I buy into the assumption that people who care about 0-60 times are necessarily drag racing, striving to prove their manhood, etc. I agree that 5-60 times may be more indicative of real-world driving, but as I tried to explain above, 0-60 times will still correlate with acceleration times over other speed intervals. I suppose you could argue that if the speed limit on the highway you're pulling onto is 65, then 5-60 times are less relevant than 5-65 times. In a literal sense that's true. But the 5-60 (or 0-60) times will give you a pretty good sense of what you can expect as you pull onto that highway, even if the data isn't a perfect match for the speed limit. The 0-60 time, historically, was adopted as a rough-and-ready measure of acceleration. It's possible to care about it not literally because you want to know how fast you could get from 0 to 60 but as an indicator of acceleration more generally (which is really what it's intended to be.) The same applies to braking distance from 60 to 0. It doesn't provide information only applicable to situations where your going 60 and literally need to get to 0 in a certain distance. It's a sample of the car's braking behavior that has been adopted as a value that's more or less representative of how the car performs under braking conditions. Another analogy is a batting average. It doesn't tell you whether a batter will get a hit at the next at-bat or even how likely a hit is (the next at-bat could be the beginning of a slump, for example). But it does serve as an overall measure of how the hitter can be expected to perform over the long term.

It's in that sense that 0-60 times are useful information for me. I can't imagine caring literally about how quickly a car would go from 0-60 under drag strip conditions but as an indicator (albeit imperfect, to be sure) of the car's capacity to accelerate, it has utility. Same with 60-0 braking times. It's merely a widely-accepted benchmark, not a data point that may never be relevant in its literal sense.

I'll agree that, as a general benchmark, a car that, on a given day under a particular set of circumstances, gets to 60 (from 0 or 5) a couple of tenths of a second faster doesn't really matter all that much. First, the time obtained should be understood to be imperfect. There's some error associated with essentially any measurement. The actual time reported is an estimate of the car's acceleration. If the same number is obtained time and again across a wide range of conditions, it becomes a more credible estimate. But that's not how these things are usually done. Manufacturers often (not always) go through the reported road tests and pick the most favorable number to report in their ads. And, as others have said repeatedly, a couple of tenths one way or the other, even if credible, probably doesn't matter much for real-world driving.
 
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So are you saying it is correlated but may not be well correlated. How we’ll correlated could vary from car to car. So it may be indicative but maybe not so much depending on the individual car’s characteristics. I guess it’s a starting point if that’s all you have to work with but won’t necessarily give you the info you are really looking for it all cases defend on how good the correlation is.
 
I get what you're saying and I appreciate your input. Your description of what launch control does and how it benefits turbocharged cars in particular was very helpful and filled a gap in my knowledge.

But "little or no correlation" I don't think is accurate, at least in the formal sense that I was using the term. Correlation is a way of quantifying, across multiple instances, how similarly specific things (cars, in this case) array themselves. If you took a bunch of cars and timed them 0-60 and plotted a distribution and then took the same cars and plotted a distribution of their 5-60 times, the extent to which each car was in roughly a similar location on the first as on the second distribution determines the strength of the correlation of 0-60 times to 5-60 times. So, even if 0-60 and 5-60 are pretty different, what matters for a substantial correlation to exist is that cars more or less do "better" or "worse" on both. This doesn't mean that the fastest car 0-60 must also be the fastest car 5-60 but that the cars that are, say, in the top third of all cars tested on 0-60, will tend to be somewhere in the top third from 5-60. And not every car needs even to meet that criterion for there to be a substantial correlation. Nor do the cars that do end up in the top third of each distribution need to be in the same order. The fastest car 0-60 might be considerably lower 5-60 (or vice versa) but if it still is in the top third somewhere (and that general pattern is similar for most of the other cars), there will still be a substantial correlation. For there to be no correlation, there would have to be absolutely no relationship whatsoever (which is what "no correlation" means) between the 0-60 and the 5-60 time. So, stated differently the world's fastest car 0-60 would be as likely to be the worlds fastest from 5-60 as it was the world's slowest from 5-60, if the two measures were truly uncorrelated.

"Correlation" really gets used two ways, in the more formal way I've described and in the more casual way that I think you intended. Either is legitimate, depending on the context, and I'm not criticizing you for not using it in the more formal sense, just trying to explain my usage. Used in the more casual way, I totally get your point that the 0-60 and the 5-60 times are a long way from being in perfect lockstep. I was really thinking of the more formal definition because I used to teach this stuff and that's just how I reflexively think about correlation. So, I don't think we're really very much in disagreement so much as we're just using the same term in different ways. Just wanted to explain why I concluded that there would be a substantial correlation between 0-50 and 5-60 times in that more formal sense, as I'm confident there would be over a wide range of cars (far less so, or course, over a very narrow range of cars with very similar power and weight).

Hope that makes sense and provides clarification.

My use of the term correlation here was only in reference to the ability to use one value (the 0-60 time) to predict the other(5-60). Since I think that was where this thread was going. Paraphrasing here, "Who cares about 0-60 times?" " I do, because I can use it to ballpark how fast the car will be overall."

The notion that a car with a quick 0-60 time will also produce a quick 5-60 time mostly holds true if the car is naturally aspirated (my “little” correlation comment). If it is in the top third for one it will likely be in the top third for the other. That starts to fall apart when you add forced induction. A supercharged vehicle tends to follow the same model with the gap getting wider. It might be in the mid-range of the top third to 60 list but off of the top-third 5-60 list. Where this really falls apart is with turbocharged models. If I add a “big” turbocharger to a vehicle and move the peak boost up the RPM range I can make the car MUCH faster from a standstill. I can use my preferred “launch technique” to build tons of boost to take off like a scalded cat. I will move up the ranks on the 0-60 list. But now, with peak boost not coming on until much higher in the rev range, my 5-60 time will be significantly impacted. So much so that it could land me on the “slow” 5-60 list. So what I did to make it faster to 60 actually made is slower from 5-60. This happened with the Mitsubishi Evolution. There were factory produced “tuner/modified” models called the FQ series (not sold in the US). The turbocharger got larger and larger as you moved up the FQ range. Pin your foot to the floor at launch and never let up, the top FQ trim was VERY fast. But the base Evo was MUCH faster from 5-60 due to the much smaller turbo's ability to build boost quickly. So using the top FQ model as a daily driver was awful. So I guess it would have been better if I stated there could be either a direct correlation or an inverse correlation. Since both types of correlation are possible, using the 0-60 time to give you a sense of something like “passing power” could lead to great disappointment. Using the 5-60 value to predict overall performance is a much better idea. A car with a very fast 5-60 time will also have a very fast 0-60 time.
 
"Correlated" implied to me a comparison across multiple cars. It's a relationship (in this case) between two indicators "0-60 time" and "5-60 time" across cars. It doesn't work for one pair of values, like the 0-60 and 5-60 times for one car. It's an aggregate representation of how the two variables are related to each other across many instances (either a whole bunch of runs of the same car or a single pair of runs for multiple cars). As we usually don't get a whole lot of repeats of 0-60 and 5-60 runs for the same car, I had those times across a variety of different cars in mind. Now if you envision those two distributions (one for 0-60 and another for 5-60) of values gathered from a wide range of cars, it would be likely that some cars would occupy the same or nearly-the-same location on both variables (say, the highest 0-60 and the highest 5-60) while other cars might occupy substantially different locations (say 25th percentile for 0-60 but 75th percentile for 5-50). The correlation between the two variables, (that is, 0-60 time and 5-60 time) will be higher the more cars there are that were tested whose scores are in similar positions on the two distributions. If every car tested had its 0-60 score on the same exact spot on the 0-60 distribution as its 5-60 score on the 5-60 distribution, the correlation between 0-50 times and 5-60 times would be perfect (that is, 1.0). If the scores on the two distributions bore no correspondence beyond what you'd expect purely by chance, you'd have no correlation (that is, 0.0). Correlations can come about causally in one of three ways, either Variable A causes Variable B, Variable B causes Variable A, or one or more other variables (let's just call those, collectively, C) causes both Variable A and Variable B. For this situation, the likely factors determining any observed correlation between Variable A (let that be 0-60 time) and variable B (5-60 time) are effective power and weight. By "effective power" I mean something that takes gearing into consideration over the speed range in question, in additional to the total horsepower. Weight is pretty straightforward. Cars that have more power and less weight can accelerate faster, and will, all else being equal. Cars with more weight and/or less power will accelerate less quickly, all else being equal. Thus, it is no surprise that two measures of acceleration will be substantially correlated. They're being caused by the same antecedent variables. And the more variability there is in the variables being examined, the larger the correlation will be. If you take cars that typically get 0-60 times between 4.5 and 4.6 seconds, for example, the correlation between 0-60 times and 5-60 times can't be all that large because one of the variables (doesn't matter which one) has such a small range. On the other hand, if you take cars with 0-60 times ranging from 3.5 seconds to 6.5 seconds and 5-60 times with a comparable range from highest to lowest, the possible correlation can be substantially higher. another way to think about correlation is the extent that the two time "vary together" as you focus your attention from car to car. In fact, there's a thing called a covariance that is closely related to a correlation coefficient. Thinking about how two variables covary makes it easier to understand that in order to covary, the variables have to vary. If either one of them is invariant, the correlation has to be zero. if either or both are nearly invariant, the correlation will be near zero. If both vary substantially, the correlation may be (but isn't necessarily a whole lot higher than zero.

What I've called "effective power" may well be influenced by normal vs forced aspiration. In fact, it certainly is. A turbo on full boost will result in more power than with essentially zero boost. That will certainly attenuate the correlation between 0-60 and 5-60 times, which is your point. That point is entirely correct. But I still think the correlation would be substantial between the two times (although I don't have data at hand, of course). First, the percentage change in horsepower under full and minimal boost won't be vast. I'm guessing we're talking something considerably less than a 50% horsepower increase between a turbo and non-turbo version. In addition, that horsepower difference isn't in effect for the entire run. Once the turbo spools up, the latter part of the 5-60 run benefits from it. But still, your point has merit that the presence of the turbo from the get-go in one case and only later in the other (especially with launch control) is not trivial. But to the extent that either 0-60 or 5-60 time is an indicator of the capacity of the car to accelerate (which is the real variable of interest in day-to-day driving), I think either metric provides useful, although not identical information about the same underlying determining factors, l.e. the engine and the vehicle weight.

Another point worth noting is that correlation isn't the same as agreement. Two variables can never have the same value but can agree perfectly. Let's take a simple example. Imagine that you give a bunch of kids a set of blocks shaped kind of like a deck of cards. You ask the kids to make a pile of the blocks. Under condition 1 they can pile the blocks so that the broadest surface is no the table, and every subsequent block on top of it is in the same orientation. In the second condition, the blocks have to be piled so that their smallest edge is on the surface of the table and every subsequent block has to go small-edge-to-small edge, on top of that. So the two variables are "flat-side-to-flat-side score" and "small-edge-to-small-edge score." Let's call them Variable 1 and Variable 2 for now. I doubt that, for any given kid, the value of Variable 1 would equal Variable 2. It's so much easier to get more blocks into a stable pile when they're laying flat that Variable 1 should be consistently higher than variable 2. But if the kids were a really good pile-maker, a so-so pile maker, and a not-so-good pile maker, they may make the best, next-best, and worst piles no matter which type of pile you were talking about. So, the best kid would "win" with the best score on Variable 1 and the best score on Variable 2. The worst pile-maker would have the lowest score for Variable 1 and for Variable 2. The third kid would be in between those extremes for each variable. The correlation you'd obtain between Variable 1 and Variable 2 would essentially be perfect, even though for any kid, the Variable 1 score and the same kid's Variable 2 score would never be the same. what's important is not a match or mismatch but that for each variable, that kid scored in the same relative position compared to the other two kids.

I realize this is kind of technical but I think it may explain why when I said that 0-60 and 5-60 times would be substantially correlated, that may have been less than obvious. I've computed hundreds, if not thousand, of correlation coefficients on both real and simulated data and it can be surprising how little "apparent" similarity two variables need to have in order to be substantially correlated, assuming you have a sufficient amount of data. I was thinking of how these times would compare when looking over a broad spectrum of automobiles of varying performance capabilities. I think you were probably thinking about the fact that, for several cars that come to mind, the 0-60 and 5-60 times look pretty different. I think we're both right in that regard. Both those can be true at the same time. We were really referring to different things in the way we were using the word "correlation."

Sorry for the long winded and off topic reply. I just got on a roll there. I like sifting through the details of complex topics. Pleas don't view any of this as criticism or even disagreement. I really do think we're on the same page here. It just took me a while to understand the reasons for our apparent disagreement.
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"Correlated" implied to me a comparison across multiple cars. It's a relationship (in this case) between two indicators "0-60 time" and "5-60 time" across cars. It doesn't work for one pair of values, like the 0-60 and 5-60 times for one car. It's an aggregate representation of how the two variables are related to each other across many instances (either a whole bunch of runs of the same car or a single pair of runs for multiple cars). As we usually don't get a whole lot of repeats of 0-60 and 5-60 runs for the same car, I had those times across a variety of different cars in mind. Now if you envision those two distributions (one for 0-60 and another for 5-60) of values gathered from a wide range of cars, it would be likely that some cars would occupy the same or nearly-the-same location on both variables (say, the highest 0-60 and the highest 5-60) while other cars might occupy substantially different locations (say 25th percentile for 0-60 but 75th percentile for 5-50). The correlation between the two variables, (that is, 0-60 time and 5-60 time) will be higher the more cars there are that were tested whose scores are in similar positions on the two distributions. If every car tested had its 0-60 score on the same exact spot on the 0-60 distribution as its 5-60 score on the 5-60 distribution, the correlation between 0-50 times and 5-60 times would be perfect (that is, 1.0). If the scores on the two distributions bore no correspondence beyond what you'd expect purely by chance, you'd have no correlation (that is, 0.0). Correlations can come about causally in one of three ways, either Variable A causes Variable B, Variable B causes Variable A, or one or more other variables (let's just call those, collectively, C) causes both Variable A and Variable B. For this situation, the likely factors determining any observed correlation between Variable A (let that be 0-60 time) and variable B (5-60 time) are effective power and weight. By "effective power" I mean something that takes gearing into consideration over the speed range in question, in additional to the total horsepower. Weight is pretty straightforward. Cars that have more power and less weight can accelerate faster, and will, all else being equal. Cars with more weight and/or less power will accelerate less quickly, all else being equal. Thus, it is no surprise that two measures of acceleration will be substantially correlated. They're being caused by the same antecedent variables. And the more variability there is in the variables being examined, the larger the correlation will be. If you take cars that typically get 0-60 times between 4.5 and 4.6 seconds, for example, the correlation between 0-60 times and 5-60 times can't be all that large because one of the variables (doesn't matter which one) has such a small range. On the other hand, if you take cars with 0-60 times ranging from 3.5 seconds to 6.5 seconds and 5-60 times with a comparable range from highest to lowest, the possible correlation can be substantially higher. another way to think about correlation is the extent that the two time "vary together" as you focus your attention from car to car. In fact, there's a thing called a covariance that is closely related to a correlation coefficient. Thinking about how two variables covary makes it easier to understand that in order to covary, the variables have to vary. If either one of them is invariant, the correlation has to be zero. if either or both are nearly invariant, the correlation will be near zero. If both vary substantially, the correlation may be (but isn't necessarily a whole lot higher than zero.

What I've called "effective power" may well be influenced by normal vs forced aspiration. In fact, it certainly is. A turbo on full boost will result in more power than with essentially zero boost. That will certainly attenuate the correlation between 0-60 and 5-60 times, which is your point. That point is entirely correct. But I still think the correlation would be substantial between the two times (although I don't have data at hand, of course). First, the percentage change in horsepower under full and minimal boost won't be vast. I'm guessing we're talking something considerably less than a 50% horsepower increase between a turbo and non-turbo version. In addition, that horsepower difference isn't in effect for the entire run. Once the turbo spools up, the latter part of the 5-60 run benefits from it. But still, your point has merit that the presence of the turbo from the get-go in one case and only later in the other (especially with launch control) is not trivial. But to the extent that either 0-60 or 5-60 time is an indicator of the capacity of the car to accelerate (which is the real variable of interest in day-to-day driving), I think either metric provides useful, although not identical information about the same underlying determining factors, l.e. the engine and the vehicle weight.

Another point worth noting is that correlation isn't the same as agreement. Two variables can never have the same value but can agree perfectly. Let's take a simple example. Imagine that you give a bunch of kids a set of blocks shaped kind of like a deck of cards. You ask the kids to make a pile of the blocks. Under condition 1 they can pile the blocks so that the broadest surface is no the table, and every subsequent block on top of it is in the same orientation. In the second condition, the blocks have to be piled so that their smallest edge is on the surface of the table and every subsequent block has to go small-edge-to-small edge, on top of that. So the two variables are "flat-side-to-flat-side score" and "small-edge-to-small-edge score." Let's call them Variable 1 and Variable 2 for now. I doubt that, for any given kid, the value of Variable 1 would equal Variable 2. It's so much easier to get more blocks into a stable pile when they're laying flat that Variable 1 should be consistently higher than variable 2. But if the kids were a really good pile-maker, a so-so pile maker, and a not-so-good pile maker, they may make the best, next-best, and worst piles no matter which type of pile you were talking about. So, the best kid would "win" with the best score on Variable 1 and the best score on Variable 2. The worst pile-maker would have the lowest score for Variable 1 and for Variable 2. The third kid would be in between those extremes for each variable. The correlation you'd obtain between Variable 1 and Variable 2 would essentially be perfect, even though for any kid, the Variable 1 score and the same kid's Variable 2 score would never be the same. what's important is not a match or mismatch but that for each variable, that kid scored in the same relative position compared to the other two kids.

I realize this is kind of technical but I think it may explain why when I said that 0-60 and 5-60 times would be substantially correlated, that may have been less than obvious. I've computed hundreds, if not thousand, of correlation coefficients on both real and simulated data and it can be surprising how little "apparent" similarity two variables need to have in order to be substantially correlated, assuming you have a sufficient amount of data. I was thinking of how these times would compare when looking over a broad spectrum of automobiles of varying performance capabilities. I think you were probably thinking about the fact that, for several cars that come to mind, the 0-60 and 5-60 times look pretty different. I think we're both right in that regard. Both those can be true at the same time. We were really referring to different things in the way we were using the word "correlation."

Sorry for the long winded and off topic reply. I just got on a roll there. I like sifting through the details of complex topics. Pleas don't view any of this as criticism or even disagreement. I really do think we're on the same page here. It just took me a while to understand the reasons for our apparent disagreement.

I didn't mean to insinuate you were incorrect in any way. I just question the relevance to the topic at hand as I need the correlation to be useful.

My focus is on way to use performance data to help differentiate between models. Knowing how 0-60 and 5-60 times correlate for the entire auto industry will not help me do that. One or more of the models I am looking at may be an outlier. I need a variable (an acceleration test result) that shows direct correlation (as it improves, so does the other) with multiple other variables (other acceleration times) so I can use it to "predict" how the car will perform overall. The 0-60 time will not help me do that even if I know the power ratings and weights of the vehicles in question. Two cars with the same power to weight ratio, gearing, etc. may have very similar 0-60 times. But if one is using a large turbocharger, with lots of lag, the other times (5-60, 30-50, etc.) are going to be very different. There is too much risk in relying on the 0-60 time. So it goes into the "not useful" category. But if I know the 5-60 time is "top tier" for the class then I can, with much lower risk, use it to predict that the other acceleration times are also going to be very good (like 0-60, etc.) as well. If the 5-60 time is bad, I can stop and move onto another model.
 
There is too much risk in relying on the 0-60 time. So it goes into the "not useful" category. But if I know the 5-60 time is "top tier" for the class then I can, with much lower risk, use it to predict that the other acceleration times are also going to be very good (like 0-60, etc.) as well. If the 5-60 time is bad, I can stop and move onto another model.

Comes down to the test drive. Push pedal to floor. Observe what happens. Approve results or move on.
 
I didn't mean to insinuate you were incorrect in any way. I just question the relevance to the topic at hand as I need the correlation to be useful.

My focus is on way to use performance data to help differentiate between models. Knowing how 0-60 and 5-60 times correlate for the entire auto industry will not help me do that. One or more of the models I am looking at may be an outlier. I need a variable (an acceleration test result) that shows direct correlation (as it improves, so does the other) with multiple other variables (other acceleration times) so I can use it to "predict" how the car will perform overall. The 0-60 time will not help me do that even if I know the power ratings and weights of the vehicles in question. Two cars with the same power to weight ratio, gearing, etc. may have very similar 0-60 times. But if one is using a large turbocharger, with lots of lag, the other times (5-60, 30-50, etc.) are going to be very different. There is too much risk in relying on the 0-60 time. So it goes into the "not useful" category. But if I know the 5-60 time is "top tier" for the class then I can, with much lower risk, use it to predict that the other acceleration times are also going to be very good (like 0-60, etc.) as well. If the 5-60 time is bad, I can stop and move onto another model.

That's a nice explanation and it makes sense.
 
Comes down to the test drive. Push pedal to floor. Observe what happens. Approve results or move on.

I COMPLETELY agree. I would never advice anyone to just pick a car on paper and then go buy it. I use the data to put together a list of cars that work for me personally. Then I got drive them as part of the elimination process.
 
I COMPLETELY agree. I would never advice anyone to just pick a car on paper and then go buy it. I use the data to put together a list of cars that work for me personally. Then I got drive them as part of the elimination process.

Agree! I do a ton of research first, create spreadsheets, read reviews and most importantly see and drive the cars of choice. There has been times where within the first mile I drove I car I said nope not for me.
 
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Here is a Stinger with a mild tune against two turbo 6 BMW's with a heavy tune..... Burger Motorsports JB4 , which if any of you have any experience with that you know they are almost untouchable in sedans until you get to supercar type 4 doors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oTKMv2r9sE
 
Sorry there is no way a 4 door sedan would be or could be called a "sports car" a corvette is a sports car a hellcat is not considered a sports car. A G70 is a sedan and might have a sport option like my G80 but no way is my G80 is a sports car. The G70 will compete with cars like the BMW 3 series but again a BMW is not a sports car.i

I do agree with with most not caring about a few tenths of a second with this class of car.
1524854296037.webp Sports car
 
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