Brakes Failed

[Seejay]

I have a case with HMA consumer affairs which started out as complaint against a dealer for cutting warped brake rotors rather than replacing them. The attitude of all concerned was so cavalier, it blew my mind. We are talking brakes here.

I never liked the pedal. On my car, it's mushy. Each time I press on the pedal, it's a new world. The worst brake pedal I have ever had on a car. The dealer that replaced the rotors bled them down, but the problem returned.

And boy did it ever. Today i made a panic stop to avoid striking someone who cut right in front of me while I was travelling at about 40 mph. With the pedal nearly to the floor, there was no assist, and no anti-lock, tires not making a sound. I nearly hit the car. There is something really wrong here.

Nice car if you don't have to stop real quick. I will be taking it to my dealer, though i cannot see testing this without doing some serious wear to the car and tires in order to make a determination. From what I read of the G1 Genesis brake debacle, Hyundai initially did not want to change out the $2500 EBU to fix the problem and when they saw class action suit headed their way and all the negative PR with it, they acceded. I certainly hope my dealer can get the master cylinder/EBU replaced without fuss. We are talking brakes here.

 

[homeofstone]

Failing brakes is a serious. I hope you have taken the car to the dealer for repair and the necessary parts replaced. Don't accept the car as repaired until you have tested the brakes in an extensive test drive. And keep the dealer's loaner car until the your car is right. I kept an Acura dealer's loaner for about 6 weeks while they had my car in for repair. They got their new loaner car back with 5000 miles on it.

 

[greekgeek]

Sounds like it might be a bad brake booster.

 

[MikeyTG]

Cutting warped rotors is a waste of time, they will continue to warp and be bad again in a few weeks, at least in my experience. Besides, a new car deserves new parts, especially brakes!

I am sure there is a problem with your brakes, mine are solid and work great. There must be some newly developed components in the brake system to implement autonomous braking and stability control. Ask the dealer if their techs have been trained to diagnose and work on the new systems.

 

[Seejay]

@MikeyTG and the rest. Thanks. I wanted confirmation from other owners that a mushy poorly defined pedal is abnormal for the brakes on a 2015 Hyundai Genesis.

I test drove a 2.0L turbo Sonata (to get a $25 gas card and chance at winning an Elantra, yeh right) and the brake pedal on that car was outstanding.

 

[jsmit86]

No issues with my brakes, and I don't see this as a common complaint. If you don't get satisfaction, perhaps another dealer can help. (Although that should not be necessary)

 

[nickpike]

This isn't going to help, but my brakes are just excellent. Very little pedal force is required and the car stops progressively, with just enough pedal feed back.
I had new discs fitted on my Sonata last year. I asked about machining the old discs, but the economics made it far more realistic to fit new discs. I'm surprised to hear they machined them.

 

[Seejay]

Well, the dealer i bought the car from is just terrible. I posted about them on the dealer feedback thread, and sent them to hell with JD Powers on the new customer survey. They burned me on the lease and trade in as well. On things as trivial as an oil change, they lose parts.

Then, with 125 miles on the car, they machine the rotors instead of replacing them, telling me they were done, and they were not going to replace the rotors. My favorite dealer, Humble Hyundai, the one i should have bought the car from, replaced the rotors. What was i thinking? I had purchased two Hyundais from them previously. I wasn't thinking.

The sad part of this story is that the terrible dealer will probably be the Genesis dealer in North Houston. My favorite Hyundai dealer will probably not qualify since they do not sell that many.

North Freeway Hyundai can be assured that I will tell HMA that under no circumstances will I ever darken their doors again.

 

[lobsenza]

One key cause of warped rotors is unevenly tightened lug nuts. Whenever i get a vehicle back from service where the wheels were removed, I loosten every lug nut and retighten with a torque wrench. I have never had a problem once i started doing this many years ago. Prior to that, i went through 2 sets of rotors before an engineer at Bendix told me to do this. It solved the problem completely.

 

[Seejay]

@lobsenza
Yes, i am pretty certain that when the mud guards were installed at the port was when the rotors were trashed.

Nobody at HMA consumer affairs was the least bit interested in how this happened.

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[Seejay]

I guess we are at a difference of opinion. Have any of you have done a panic stop in your car?

I spoke with the tech at the dealer today at length and we went around to about 4-5 new cars on the lot, and the brake pedals felt the same on all of them. As in not very good. He said the Genesis brake pedal is crap compared to the 2015 Sonatas, and i agree. He cites the poor choice Hyundai made for the EBU (electronic brake unit) supplier.

If you want to reproduce this, it's easy and does not involve any dangerous or hairy nonsense. With the car idling in neutral or drive, slowly press on the pedal and continually increase pressure. You will almost get the pedal to the floor. At no time will you "feel the calipers" as you do on really good brakes.

This is what i am talking about:

The 10 Most Annoying Things You Find on New Cars
From the article:

Brake Pedal Dead Zones

Even if you don't drive a performance car, whatever car you have comes with brakes. They're important for slowing down said car, after all. Powerful sports cars are known for having great brakes, but even the new Honda Civic has wonderful, confidence-inspiring brakes.

Despite the fact that Honda got it right on a car that starts at less than $20,000, far too many cars these days have brakes that don't even engage until you've pressed the brake pedal several inches. Why? When you hit the brakes, you want the car to slow down right then, not a little bit later after you've pushed down hard enough to finally convince the system you're serious.

By contrast, the brakes seem so bad because the steering and throttle are so good. What a shame that a car so excellent in so many ways is marred by this nonsense. It's not alone, however.

 

[amartz]

Then, with 125 miles on the car, they machine the rotors instead of replacing them, telling me they were done, and they were not going to replace the rotors.

Unless you've been racing all week, no way rotors should warp with on 125 miles on the car. Unless you've been doing something to really get them hot. (Or lug-nuts). I always replace my rotors rather than machine them. New rotors from O'Reillys or Advance aren't all that expensive, and easy to change. I still went with the dealer pads when I did mine, and I've been happy with them.

 

[amartz]

I guess we are at a difference of opinion. Have any of you have done a panic stop in your car?

Yes. Mines a 1G, not a 2G, but in a panic stop it'll about put you through the windshield.

 

[wasnt]

Hyundai level service...

 

[pmckechnie]

On anti lock brakes, you can't test the brakes if the car is not moving. On almost all of these cars you can push the peddle almost to the floor sitting still. My Genesis will put you through the windshield if you don't have your seat belt on and you hit the brakes real hard. Go back to the dealer and actually drive other cars. You only need to drive a few feet and hit the brakes to tell if they are different from your car. If they are better, look the service manager in the eye and say, FIX IT.
I just went out and checked my Genesis and I can push the brake peddle almost to the floor sitting still, and it has great brakes.

PaulM

 

[Seejay]

Thanks for all the replies. It really, really helps.

During the panic stop, all the stuff on the back seat (a 1/2 litre bottle of water) violently struck the rear of the driver's seat. My leather jacket on the rear seat also struck the rear of the passenger's front seat, so some considerable g forces were generated. Did I feel that the car was going to stop? No. Now that I have experienced a panic stop with this car, do I feel confident that the car can stop in a bad situation? No.

This is a topic that gives automotive engineers the heebie-jeebies. Pedal ergonomics are incredibly subtle. Ask Audi when they lost market share for a decade because of an extremely inaccurate CBS 60 Minutes report in the 1980s about unintended acceleration with gas and brake pedals. Or Toyota's recent experience. Manufacturers changed gas pedal designs as a result. They actually went back to a design that was common in the 1960s.

I test drove several Genesis sedans at three different dealers. The pedals all feel the same, vague and electronicky. I cannot say whether or not they would behave in a panic situation the way my car did.

Testing this is really the problem. Unless you have a wet skidpad available, all you will do to establish a baseline is tear up stuff. This is not something a dealer can do. Testing this on a street or highway is insane. Testing my car also requires a wet skidpad in order to determine if the anti lock and brake assist are working properly. The car has to be instrumented. This is not trivial.

I am trying right now to establish a paper trail if i get in an accident. I have written to my insurance company. I will try the dealership one more time, and then file a complaint with the NHTSA. Of course, once i "burn" this dealership, there are none left for me.

Unfortunately, the safest course of action for me is to get rid of the car.

Again, thanks all.

 

[Aquineas]

Seejay, I feel like my brakes are very touchy, and thus sometimes it's difficult to stop as smoothly as I would like, but I've never once felt uneasy about a panic stop. When I've needed my brakes, they've been there, in spades. I've also intentionally braked to activate the ABS and it's worked without issue (I will usually do this after or when it's raining on a straight road, alone in traffic, to test adhesion).

I said all that to say that there's a possibility that the dealer messed something up when they serviced the brakes initially. I am not enamored with the touchiness of my brake pedal, but I have no doubt that putting my pedal to the floor would generate enough pressure to stop my car straight-away. If anything, it's a bit too sensitive. Note I have about 22.5K miles on my car.

Please note that I'm also in the Houston area, and I bought two previous Genesii from North Freeway Hyundai. I was not impressed with the service department. The service department definitely gave me the "We're a Hyundai dealership and your Genesis is nothing special" feeling, though I should add the caveat that the last time I had a car serviced there was 2012 (before they moved to their current location in Spring).

One reason I didn't buy my current Genesis from them is I visited the dealership 3 times and never got a peep from a salesperson. Again this requires some forthright qualification on my part, so here goes. The first two times I visited, I didn't walk inside, I drove around the back and parked my 2012 Genesis near the 2nd generation Genesii and spent at least 20 minutes looking at the colors in person (North Freeway Hyundai almost always has a great color selection). On the second visit I even took my wife to get her opinion, and had my kids with me. Seeing the colors in person really makes a difference (it came down to white with tan interior or Montecito Blue with Ivory). On my third visit, I actually did walk into the dealership, walked around the showroom for 10 minutes and no one bothered to help me. Now granted I was in jeans and a polo shirt, but I pulled right up to the front with my 1st generation Genesis, and not a single salesperson looked up from their desks.

I ended up buying my car from Texan Hyundai in Rosenburg, which is quite a haul from my home near Lake Conroe, but the service department at Texan Hyundai treated me much better than than North Freeway Hyundai, and on the sales-side, Erdwin Dominguez (now an internet sales manager) was awesome to work with. I wouldn't hesitate to buy from him again. I initially chose Texan Hyundai because they had the car I wanted in stock (and in fact was a showroom vehicle with 17 miles on it).

May I ask how many miles were on your vehicle when you purchased it? It's possible that someone warped the brakes on a test-drive.

With regards to North Freeway Hyundai, if I were considering buying from them again, I'd completely by-pass their sales department and go directly to the finance guy for the deal. I can't find his card at the moment, but he's a no-bs Dominican American gentleman from New York City who's all about closing deals.

 

[amartz]

During the panic stop, all the stuff on the back seat (a 1/2 litre bottle of water) violently struck the rear of the driver's seat. My leather jacket on the rear seat also struck the rear of the passenger's front seat, so some considerable g forces were generated. Did I feel that the car was going to stop? No. Now that I have experienced a panic stop with this car, do I feel confident that the car can stop in a bad situation? No.

I just don't get this guy. How can you empty the back seat, and still feel like the car's not stopping up short? I'm more worried about the guy behind me stopping in time if I really stomp on the brakes. From most any speed.

 

[nickpike]

I guess we are at a difference of opinion. Have any of you have done a panic stop in your car?

Yes. Funnily enough it was on the way home from collecting my car from the dealer. A car in front indicated late for a turn and slowed abruptly, and the guy behind him braked heavily. Because of the reaction times I was having to do what we call here an emergency stop. Before I could get my foot to the pedal, and large red car icon appeared in the LCD between the gauges and there was an audible alarm. The car started to brake heavily before I could apply pressure to the pedal. I ended up pushing the pedal hard as you tend to do, but I'm pretty sure the car would have stopped itself. Brilliant bit of kit.
The brakes on mine are terrific and the pedal has a lovely feel. If you have a problem sounds like the dealer should correct the problem.

 

[Seejay]

I guess I should clarify some things. I bought the car with 28 miles on it, and the brakes seemed fine. When it had 125 miles on it, the rotors were warped badly, I brought it to North Freeway and they cut the rotors. Two weeks later, I had the rotors replaced at Humble Hyundai. HMA consumer affairs could not have given less of a ***k.

The way I understand it, as long as the lug nuts are correctly torqued, a warped rotor means the metal casting is defective. If the metal is good, then the warping is caused by incorrectly torqued lug nuts. There is no way to warp them just by hot-dogging a car. If it occurs it means the metal casting was defective.

At any rate, I am satisfied about the brake rotors. I am not happy with the way the brake pedal feels, but that's me. I can live with that. It's the stopping power of the braking system I am concerned about now.

HMA consumer affairs does not want to consider anything I have to say about the panic stop I had to make last weekend. I am sure my case number = "NUT" at their office. They have been nothing but rude and condescending. They want me to go away and continue to pay for a car I feel is unsafe. The lemon law in Texas has real teeth, particularly with things like brakes. The manufacturer has four chances to fix it over a 24 month period, then they eat it. Of course, at the end of 24 months I could be part of a bridge abutment. How do you prove a car has inadequate brakes without becoming a statistic?

If anybody has some suggestions about what they would do, I would be most appreciative.