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DOCTOR/LAWYER stuff...

sandy

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In theory, all things the above things are similar, but in practice the tactics of dealers are much more insidious and annoying.

Annoying, maybe. But insidious? How is it more insidious for a F&I guy trying to sell an adult an extended warranty than McDonalds training their counter people to up-sell some ten-year old? Or your doctor "padding" his bill with unneeded tests? If you're not inclined to buy something, someone trying to sell it to you can be annoying. But, again, as Dataguy puts it, it's part of the game in the car business and, in reality, every other business and profession. Sales are what makes the world go 'round.
 
Re: Buying experience?

Annoying, maybe. But insidious? How is it more insidious for a F&I guy trying to sell an adult an extended warranty than McDonalds training their counter people to up-sell some ten-year old? Or your doctor "padding" his bill with unneeded tests? If you're not inclined to buy something, someone trying to sell it to you can be annoying. But, again, as Dataguy puts it, it's part of the game in the car business and, in reality, every other business and profession. Sales are what makes the world go 'round.
Yes, insidious. If you read the posts in this thread, the charges were included on the invoice even after they said "no". I can just imagine what the average unsophisticated Hyundai buyer who can barely understand a contract has to go through.

You must be associated with a dealer.

BTW, very few doctors get paid for tests, since they are sent out to labs who charge us or our insurance companies. But some doctors do indeed perform too much testing in order to avoid getting sued for negligence by personal injury lawyers (about the only creature on earth lower than a car salesperson).
 
Re: Buying experience?

Unfortunately as a personal injury I take offense to your sweeping generalities. Do you really think that airbags, warnings, recalls, yes testing, and in general thinking twice before you put out a dangerous product is done out of conscience !? Don't think so! Greed by "some" corporate people can only be dealt by the likes of us slimy Personal Injury Attorneys, Funny thing, who do you call when you F---ed up and need help?
If someone screws up, there should be consequences. However, when doctors in the US each have to pay over $100,000 per year (on average depending on specialty) in malpractice insurance, this has caused major damage to our health care system and the greed of personal injury lawyers are the major reason for this.

Every other developed nation that I know of has severe limits on medical malpractice claims, and many don't allow them at all (can't sue the government who provides health care).

So if you are willing to support limitations on medical malpractice claims, then I may take you off the s---bag list. But then there are still those ridiculous lawsuits like when a jury awarded $2.86 million to a woman who burned herself with hot coffee she purchased from McDonald's.
 
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Re: Buying experience?

Yes, Mark. I have formed several dummy corporations thru which I control 96% of the dealerships in the USA and plan to take over the remaining 4% by the end of the month.
Ha, Ha, Ha. Probably just a retired salesman (sales are not what makes the world go 'round).
 
Re: Buying experience?

Mark,

I also thought the spilled coffee lawsuit was bogus until I did a little checking. It seems the McDonalds manager had a thing for hot coffee and liked to brag that he had the "hottest coffee in town" and turned out a product that was literally boiling hot. It was also proven that the district manager knew he was producing a product that didn't conform with company policy and let it go on. Lady spills unexpected boiling liquid as they're handing it in the car and is severely scalded in place you really don't want that to happen to and sues. It makes more sense when you know the facts.
 
Re: Buying experience?

Ha, Ha, Ha. Probably just a retired salesman (sales are not what makes the world go 'round).

You're showing ignorance. Sales do make the world go around. ha, ha, ha. Didn't you "sell" your wife last night to get laid... or did you beg?
 
Re: Buying experience?

Mark,

I also thought the spilled coffee lawsuit was bogus until I did a little checking. It seems the McDonalds manager had a thing for hot coffee and liked to brag that he had the "hottest coffee in town" and turned out a product that was literally boiling hot. It was also proven that the district manager knew he was producing a product that didn't conform with company policy and let it go on. Lady spills unexpected boiling liquid as they're handing it in the car and is severely scalded in place you really don't want that to happen to and sues. It makes more sense when you know the facts.
All of the similar lawsuits against McDonald's (and others) in the UK have been dismissed by the courts. Only in the US do we have such silliness.

Even if one concedes that the coffee should not be served so hot (which I am not conceding), there is no justification for anything close to a $2.86 million judgment. There needs to be tort reform that puts limits on these types of judgments like every other nation in the world has.
 
Re: Buying experience?

Yikes, this thread has morphed, a tad. Perhaps the doctor is in a bad mood because of the 21% cut in Medicare fees that will soon be in force. Perhaps there should be a 21% cut in the salaries of car salespersons and dealer services?
I wish I were a doctor, but alas, no. But I do pay for medical insurance and my share of medical expenses, and a good chunk of that goes for malpractice insurance.
 
Re: Buying experience?

Unfortunately as a personal injury I take offense to your sweeping generalities. Do you really think that airbags, warnings, recalls, yes testing, and in general thinking twice before you put out a dangerous product is done out of conscience !? Don't think so! Greed by "some" corporate people can only be dealt by the likes of us slimy Personal Injury Attorneys, Funny thing, who do you call when you F---ed up and need help?

I practice primarily in NJ and for the last 5 or so years there is only an 11% success rate on Med Mal cases. Unfortunately, the only cases you hear about are the large cases with the facts perverted in the press. Let's sell paper with sensational Headlines without the real facts.. Part of the problem is as follows:
1. Insurance carriers in the 90's invested reserves in the .com market and got hosed, hence the beginning of the "crisis";
2. The medical profession refuses to self police.....something like 90% of the claims come from 2% of the Doctors;
3. No attorney takes the smaller cases because the costs to try a case require out of state Doctors ( local won't testify against local) can run from 20K to 50K out of pocket before trial, who wants a case a 1 in 10 chance to pursue 1/3 of 100K that requires 20 to 50K out of pocket.......better shot of putting your money on the blackjack table.....
Therefore, don't buy the party line.........there are slimeballs across the board in every field.....Remember in business people don't matter and profit is GOD.........try being late with a premium, yet what are the penalties to the carriers for paying Late!
 
Re: Buying experience?

Mark,

I also thought the spilled coffee lawsuit was bogus until I did a little checking. It seems the McDonalds manager had a thing for hot coffee and liked to brag that he had the "hottest coffee in town" and turned out a product that was literally boiling hot. It was also proven that the district manager knew he was producing a product that didn't conform with company policy and let it go on. Lady spills unexpected boiling liquid as they're handing it in the car and is severely scalded in place you really don't want that to happen to and sues. It makes more sense when you know the facts.


Thank you for pointing out the true facts which I think many people were unaware of.
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Re: Buying experience?

I practice primarily in NJ and for the last 5 or so years there is only an 11% success rate on Med Mal cases. Unfortunately, the only cases you hear about are the large cases with the facts perverted in the press. Let's sell paper with sensational Headlines without the real facts.. Part of the problem is as follows:
1. Insurance carriers in the 90's invested reserves in the .com market and got hosed, hence the beginning of the "crisis";
2. The medical profession refuses to self police.....something like 90% of the claims come from 2% of the Doctors;
3. No attorney takes the smaller cases because the costs to try a case require out of state Doctors ( local won't testify against local) can run from 20K to 50K out of pocket before trial, who wants a case a 1 in 10 chance to pursue 1/3 of 100K that requires 20 to 50K out of pocket.......better shot of putting your money on the blackjack table.....
Therefore, don't buy the party line.........there are slimeballs across the board in every field.....Remember in business people don't matter and profit is GOD.........try being late with a premium, yet what are the penalties to the carriers for paying Late!
The problem is that the average doctor pays more than $100.000 per year in medical malpractice insurance premiums. So it does not really matter what the success rate is for these types of lawsuits. In other countries, there are limits on such lawsuits.
 
Re: Buying experience?

BTW, very few doctors get paid for tests, since they are sent out to labs who charge us or our insurance companies. But some doctors do indeed perform too much testing in order to avoid getting sued for negligence by personal injury lawyers (about the only creature on earth lower than a car salesperson).

Depends - many physicians w/ their own facilities have their own equipment (i.e. - radiation oncologists).


If someone screws up, there should be consequences. However, when doctors in the US each have to pay over $100,000 per year (on average depending on specialty) in malpractice insurance, this has caused major damage to our health care system and the greed of personal injury lawyers are the major reason for this.

Actually, over the past decade, malpractice premiums have gone up significantly while the amounts paid out in malpractice case have remained the same (and even going down some years).

The rise in malpractice premiums has everything to do w/ insurance companies making up for their investment losses than any actual rise in malpractice payouts.

Every other developed nation that I know of has severe limits on medical malpractice claims, and many don't allow them at all (can't sue the government who provides health care).

So if you are willing to support limitations on medical malpractice claims, then I may take you off the s---bag list. But then there are still those ridiculous lawsuits like when a jury awarded $2.86 million to a woman who burned herself with hot coffee she purchased from McDonald's.

Caps on malpractice payouts do little in getting rid of the "nuisance" suits (most of which are settled for less than $20-30k) and just hurt those who really have been injured by the medical profession; the medical profession needs to do a much better job of policing and getting rid of its members (2-3%) who end up causing the bulk of the serious malpractice cases.

On the other side, a ban should be placed on attorneys who continually bring frivolous cases to court.


All of the similar lawsuits against McDonald's (and others) in the UK have been dismissed by the courts. Only in the US do we have such silliness.

Even if one concedes that the coffee should not be served so hot (which I am not conceding), there is no justification for anything close to a $2.86 million judgment. There needs to be tort reform that puts limits on these types of judgments like every other nation in the world has.

Actually, if you read the minutia of what the jury took into consideration, the end result made pretty good sense (I, too, had a negative inital reaction).

1. The coffee was superheated, well above industry norms.

2. The superhot coffee (40-50 degrees higher than industry norms) caused 3rd degree burns (basically the skin melted off) in a very sensitive area.

3. The jury took into account that the person was partially at fault and reduced damages accordingly.

4. Due to the superheated coffee, there had been over 700 reports made of people being burned by McDonald's coffee, w/ McDonald's having settled a no. of burn claims.

5. The jury only awarded $200k in compensatory damages (the woman, over the course of her skin graft treatment lost over 20 lbs) - which was further reduced to $160k.

6. The widely quoted $2.6 million awarded was for punitive damages due to McDonald's not having adequately addressed the burn issue despite hundreds of complaints - and was calculated on the basis of 2 days of McDonald's revenue from coffee sales.

7. The $2.6 million amount was reduced by the court to $480k (3x compensatory damages) and the parties settled out of court for less than $600k.

All in all, a pretty reasonable result.

8. And oh, the injured party initially offered to settle for $20k to cover medical costs; McDonald's countered w/ $800 and would not budge.


I wish I were a doctor, but alas, no. But I do pay for medical insurance and my share of medical expenses, and a good chunk of that goes for malpractice insurance.

The amount paid out in malpractice claims and premiums amount to little over 1% of the total amount spent on healthcare in the US.

The cost of expensive tests (on ever more expensive machines) and the continually escalating price and amount of pharmaceuticals are the prime reason for the double digit increase in insurance premiums; also, the healthcare industry is highly inefficient - about one-third of all dollars spent on healthcare is spent on paperwork instead of actual medical care.

Unfortunately, most Americans know little of the actual facts as to why healthcare is so expensive in the US and only know the few misleading talking points pushed by the big medicine (HMOs, pharmaceutical companies, etc.).
 
Re: Buying experience?

"The problem is that the average doctor pays more than $100.000 per year in medical malpractice insurance premiums. So it does not really matter what the success rate is for these types of lawsuits. In other countries, there are limits on such lawsuits."

Sorry dude - just not true - what the "average doctor" pays in premium.
 
Re: Buying experience?

Wow! Lots of lawyers drive a Genesis. Anyone know any lawyer jokes?
 
Re: Buying experience?

YEH

You do an excellent job of tempering the hyperbole with facts. The problem (as well as the fun, I guess) with sites like this is that so many know so little yet present their points of view with such certainty. Human nature being what it is, we sometimes try too hard to show how "smart" we are.
 
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Re: Buying experience?

YEH

You do an excellent job of tempering the hyperbole with facts. The problem (as well as the fun, I guess) with sites like this is that so many know so little yet present their points of view with such certainty. Human nature being what it is, we sometimes try too hard to show how "smart" we are.
Well, here are some facts to chew on:

Some states (like all other nations) have instituted tort reform and medical malpractice insurance is lower in those states.

But in moderate and high cost states it is still quite expensive according to this link:
http://www.ehow.com/about_5514154_average-cost-medical-malpractice-insurance.html

High Cost States

While Nevada malpractice insurance rates are between middle to high in comparison with all other states, doctors of many types in Nevada---including general internists, pediatricians, and general practice doctors---earn a higher average salary than doctors in any other state. In 2009 one of the highest rates of insurance in Nevada is for OB/GYNs, who may pay between $85,000 for malpractice liability insurance per year up to $142,000 per year for a premium plan by a prominent insurance company. Although the average annual salary for such doctors is around $180,000 in 2009, malpractice insurance can still be a huge financial burden.

Florida has some of the highest rates of liability insurance. Moreover, the deviation between low and high averages varies in Florida more widely than in almost any other state. For instance, a doctor in internal medicine in Florida could expect to pay in excess of $56,000 per year for insurance as in 2009, in contrast with Minnesota's $4,000. General surgeons paid in between $90,000 per year and $175,000 per year or more. OB/GYNs once again could expect the highest rates, with liability coverage ranging from $100,000 to $200,000 per year.

-----------------------------

It is hard to get accurate information, because lawyers in our society have a huge propaganda machine that churns out all kinds of stuff (in the guise of independent studies) that is not accurate or very misleading.
 
Re: Buying experience?

YEH

The problem (as well as the fun, I guess) with sites like this is that so many know so little yet present their points of view with such certainty. Human nature being what it is, we sometimes try too hard to show how "smart" we are.

Right on:cool: People gotta make up for poor self-esteem somehow, right?:D
 
Apparently President Obama now agrees that we need some kind of medical malpractice reform to curb costly defensive medicine (ordering excessive tests to guard against possible malpractice suits).

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Every time a doctor orders an extra test for you, it pushes up your medical costs and -- some experts say -- contributes to the waste in the nation's $2.2 trillion in health care spending.

While there's much debate about the actual dollar impact of this controversial practice called "defensive medicine," experts agree it's an obstacle to reining in the medical care expenses.

Defensive medicine occurs when a doctor orders tests or procedures not based on need but concern over liability, explained Dr. Alan Woodward, former president of the Massachusetts Medical Society (MMS) and vice chairman of its committee on professional liability.

"If you're serious about (health care) reform, you have to be serious about this issue," Woodward said. He estimates that more than 80% of doctors across the country are engaged in defensive medicine.

President Obama gave a slight nod to the issue in his health care speech to Congress on Wednesday. He said he has directed Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sibelius to authorize demonstration projects in individual states to test malpractive reform ideas.

"I don't believe malpractice reform is a silver bullet, but I have talked to enough doctors to know that defensive medicine may be contributing to unnecessary costs," Obama said.

A 2008 study from PricewaterhouseCoopers found that wasteful spending in the health system accounts for more than half of all of health care spending. The firm identified defensive medicine as the biggest area of excess
http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/10/new...ive_medicine/index.htm?postversion=2009093015
.
 
Rx for money woes: Doctors quit medicine

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Some 5,000 patients suddenly found themselves without an ob/gyn last November when Dr. Tara Wah closed her practice in Tallahassee, Fla.

Wah, 55, informed her patients in a letter that she could "no longer afford to make ends meet."

After 24 years, "I'm working longer hours than ever," she wrote. "Insurance payments for patient care have stayed virtually the same for the last 15 years, while the cost of doing business, including health insurance, staff salaries and supplies have risen."

The rising cost of malpractice insurance, particularly for her specialty, was the straw that broke the camel's back.

"My malpractice insurance was $125,000 a year, and going up," said Wah. "The only way to get the extra money was to cut back on my salary."

But it wasn't always like that. Being a doctor was once thought to be a path to a cushy lifestyle. Six years after she started practicing, Wah hit her "peak" income year in 1990. Then she took a pay cut every year from 1993 onward, to eventually take no salary for two months prior to permanently shutting her office.
Wasted skills

Wah no longer practices medicine. Instead, she designs and repairs jewelry. "I feel guilty. I dream about [medicine]," she said. "[But] I am so angry. I think, 'What a waste of my training.' "

Wah's situation sheds light on a troubling trend of physicians leaving medicine for a career outside of health care, said Kurt Mosley, a staffing expert with Merritt Hawkins & Associates, a physician search and consulting firm.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/14/new...ors_quitting/index.htm?postversion=2009093015
 
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