Some Info"

[WowCool]

A recent Motor Trend update/review of the 2013 Chrysler 300S ->
"In Regular mode, it needs a little too much time to kick down after the throttle is given a good stab"
Is this the Hyundai Delay by any other name""?

 

[EXBMWGUY]

A recent Motor Trend update/review of the 2013 Chrysler 300S ->
"In Regular mode, it needs a little too much time to kick down after the throttle is given a good stab"
Is this the Hyundai Delay by any other name""?

The other name is "drive-by-wire/ECU-controlled/protect the drivetrain/minimize the warranty exposure-satisfy the accountants."

 

[WowCool]

Exactly................
I think it's time to test drive a 2013/4 Jaguar........

 

[EXBMWGUY]

Exactly................
I think it's time to test drive a 2013/4 Jaguar........

Don't make me tell Jaguar stories!!

 

[WowCool]

I did my Apprenticeship on Jags 3.8's & the Daimler versions..
Once drove the Williams Lyons XJ6..........(White & full of Mods)
Itza Love/Hate relationship with Jags.. Local lady has had 3 replaced because of poor QC and many other issues......
In the UK they only sell diesels...omg...what would SWL"s make of that!!

 

[GenesisCaptain]

The other name is "drive-by-wire/ECU-controlled/protect the drivetrain/minimize the warranty exposure-satisfy the accountants."

I think there is more to it than that. I think that the ECU and TCU programming are as much a part of the secret sauce to performance as the mechanical design of the engine and transmission. I suspect that anyone can build a solid mechanical transmission and think that they are done, but there is a wad of experience that ZF has in TCU programming that makes the difference. That, and ZF has been partnering with top tier engine makers for decades. I've had the same experience with my Honda and Infiniti cars as well (I'm not sure where those transmissions were sourced).

For example, I was always amazed that my BMW seemed to magically know what gear to have the car in before I hit the gas. It never hesitated to deliver awesome power. Same with our Honda Odyssey minivan. When I goofed and pulled onto a road with a car bearing down, both cars instantly delivered all the power I asked for the moment I touched the gas. When I do the same in my Genesis, I experience a terrifying, what feels like an eternity, delay before it decides to apply power. This is the one thing that could lead me to not buy a 2nd Genesis in the future.

The mystery is that I would have expected the performance of the pre-2012 V8 with the ZF transmission too have been better. But, there have been a few posts of acceleration lag there too. So, maybe it is the warranty-exposure-accountant nanny interface in the TCU-ECU.

 

[Mark_888]

I suspect that a lot of it has to do with CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy), and Hyundai trying to achieve a good MPG rating from EPA.

 

[EXBMWGUY]

I think there is more to it than that. I think that the ECU and TCU programming are as much a part of the secret sauce to performance as the mechanical design of the engine and transmission. I suspect that anyone can build a solid mechanical transmission and think that they are done, but there is a wad of experience that ZF has in TCU programming that makes the difference. That, and ZF has been partnering with top tier engine makers for decades. I've had the same experience with my Honda and Infiniti cars as well (I'm not sure where those transmissions were sourced).

For example, I was always amazed that my BMW seemed to magically know what gear to have the car in before I hit the gas. It never hesitated to deliver awesome power. Same with our Honda Odyssey minivan. When I goofed and pulled onto a road with a car bearing down, both cars instantly delivered all the power I asked for the moment I touched the gas. When I do the same in my Genesis, I experience a terrifying, what feels like an eternity, delay before it decides to apply power. This is the one thing that could lead me to not buy a 2nd Genesis in the future.

The mystery is that I would have expected the performance of the pre-2012 V8 with the ZF transmission too have been better. But, there have been a few posts of acceleration lag there too. So, maybe it is the warranty-exposure-accountant nanny interface in the TCU-ECU.

I absolutely hear what you're saying. However, I think even ZF has a ways to go with many manufacturers' software. For example, BMW owners (including me with my former car) have experienced maddening throttle lag and hesitation with the ZF 8-spd since 2011, and a Google search of "throttle lag, hesitation, throttle tip-in, etc. paints a pretty ugly picture.

 

[Potty_Pants]

I absolutely hear what you're saying. However, I think even ZF has a ways to go with many manufacturers' software. For example, BMW owners (including me with my former car) have experienced maddening throttle lag and hesitation with the ZF 8-spd since 2011, and a Google search of "throttle lag, hesitation, throttle tip-in, etc. paints a pretty ugly picture.

What ever happened to the 6sp Auto in the 335i ??? ... it was DSG quick !

the 8spds turned to shit ?

 

[Rey]

Comment about throttle lag in BMWs parallels Genesis. Some BMWs have a "sport mode" which quickens throttle response a little bit.
I think BMW owners were the first marque to discover the Sprint Booster. There are quite a lot of favorable comments on benefits of Sprint Booster on BMW forums.
I have a '07 BMW Z4 and compared its accelerator assembly with my 2009 and 2011 Genesis V8s. The assemblies have the same outer appearance, and have identical connections. I had Sprint Boosters on both the '09 and '11 Genesis, and in both cases it woke up the transmission. Experimenting, I installed a Genesis Sprint Booster onto the BMW. It didn't "work". Transmission was confused making the car undriveable. Point is that Sprint Boosters do not necessarily interchange between marques. I can highly recommend the Sprint Booster for six speed transmissions. It is quick and easy to install. Price at about $300 may seem high, but it is well worth it.
To date, it appears there is no Sprint Booster for the 2012+ eight speed Genesis. But, I now have a 2013 V6 and can report that I find the transmission downshifts to be in the acceptable range. It is not as quick as my BMW or Jaguar, both with ZF 6 speed, but it "works."

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[EXBMWGUY]

What ever happened to the 6sp Auto in the 335i ??? ... it was DSG quick !

the 8spds turned to shit ?

I think the DSGs are only in M models. Now that's a different animal altogether! : D

 

[Potty_Pants]

I think the DSGs are only in M models. Now that's a different animal altogether! : D

I was talking about the 6sp auto in the base 335i... the shifts were so quick and tight they had to dumb down the programming to make them softer.

ppp

 

[EXBMWGUY]

I was talking about the 6sp auto in the base 335i... the shifts were so quick and tight they had to dumb down the programming to make them softer.

ppp

I'm not real familiar with that car/transmission. My BMW experience is pre-90 and post 2011.

 

[GenesisCaptain]

I absolutely hear what you're saying. However, I think even ZF has a ways to go with many manufacturers' software. For example, BMW owners (including me with my former car) have experienced maddening throttle lag and hesitation with the ZF 8-spd since 2011, and a Google search of "throttle lag, hesitation, throttle tip-in, etc. paints a pretty ugly picture.

Good point. My BMW miles are all in 5 speed and 6 speed ZF transmissions. I think I only have test drives (if at all) with an 8 speed BMW transmission. Maybe 8 gears is just too much...

I just remembered another weird ECU-TCU experience that happened two days ago. I pulled into a merge lane at a slow roll. I saw a slight gap and I punched it. However, I changed my mind about as soon as I hit the throttle and released immediately. The engine did its quick surge about a half second or so second after I had taken my foot off the gas pedal. It was like it was on a Super Bowl time delay. The transmission may have been between gears, because the car did not surge forward, but the tach definitely did a mid-RPM spike. This would never have occurred in any other car I have ever driven. When it happened, I just credited it to a very slow/laggy ECU-TCU response.

 

[EXBMWGUY]

Good point. My BMW miles are all in 5 speed and 6 speed ZF transmissions. I think I only have test drives (if at all) with an 8 speed BMW transmission. Maybe 8 gears is just too much...

I just remembered another weird ECU-TCU experience that happened two days ago. I pulled into a merge lane at a slow roll. I saw a slight gap and I punched it. However, I changed my mind about as soon as I hit the throttle and released immediately. The engine did its quick surge about a half second or so second after I had taken my foot off the gas pedal. It was like it was on a Super Bowl time delay. The transmission may have been between gears, because the car did not surge forward, but the tach definitely did a mid-RPM spike. This would never have occurred in any other car I have ever driven. When it happened, I just credited it to a very slow/laggy ECU-TCU response.

All this makes me want to go out and look for a good old-fashioned, big-block, pushrod V8. Or simply buy a new C7. But I was hoping to wait a couple of years to do that - until I have left the frozen north country.

 

[Gunkk]

Maybe 8 gears is just too much...

^ this.

+1

 

[EXBMWGUY]

^ this.

+1

I believe the technology and the know-how exists for transmission software to select the right gear, every time and under even the most extreme conditions, with 8 gears or more. We know ZF has some 9-speeds in progress now, so apparently their designers aren't inhibited by the sole characteristic of many gears (obviously packaging is a challenge all by itself). Good execution is another matter, as we can see from drivability issues discussed here.

I'm intimately familiar with certain complex non-automotive safety systems and how instantaneous their response is with from the input of multiple sensors. The principles aren't that different with transmission control, but car companies aren't as good with software development as they should be, nor do they partner particularly well with the software developers their suppliers are using. Case in point - BMW's software updates are of epic proportions and affect literally every part of the car that is computer controlled. So when you go in to the dealer for something minor that requires a S/W update, you might come out with that problem fixed and two or more new problems. That has happened to me and plenty of other people. Managing this much complexity is a huge challenge and will become more so to satisfy future CAFE requirements.