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Genesis Forum: C.A.I. Horsepower Gains
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  1. #31
    Top Gear's Avatar
    Top Gear is offline Been here awhile... What I drive: Genesis Coupe 3.8 R-Spec
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    Default Re: C.A.I. Horsepower Gains

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    I'm not sure if this applies to the Sedan, but consider this. The Coupes all have a very good CAI that is very hard to improve upon, as many modders have found out (but won't admit). For the 10-12 3.8 V6 Coupes in the US (not sure about the 13s), there is a low-restriction paper air filter and a secondary carbon filter next to each other in the airbox. The carbon filter is there to prevent gas fumes escaping back out, per the EPA. Removing that filter is easily a 10hp/20lbs or more "mod" with no downsides. The stock filter in these US cars is just as free-flowing as a K&N, so why bother with the problems a K&N brings. I did this on my car not too long ago and I was so pleased with the results I won't need any further mods...or not yet, anyway
    2012.5 3.8 R-Spec MT, Becketts Black Pearl Metallic, Genesis Emblems/Caps
    H11(rewire)/H1/881 Xenon, Potenza RE-11, EBC Red, Camber Bolts, Meguiar's Detail, Droid Docked
    Carbon Filter Removed, Shell V-Power, ODBLink LX, 325+HP, 4.6 Sec 0-60, 12.4 Sec/109 MPH 1/4


  2. #32
    QuantumRift's Avatar
    QuantumRift is offline Registered Member What I drive: Genesis 3.8 V6 Sedan
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    Default Re: C.A.I. Horsepower Gains

    First there is no "problem" with K&N filters. I've used them on every car/suv and motorcycle I own for 12+ years now with no issues. See previous message from K&N. No warranty voids; the engine won't seize like it had Cash for Clunkers destructo dropped in the engine (replacing the engine's oil with sodium silicate, more commonly known as liquid glass. When the car is run with a mixture of water and sodium silicate the liquid quickly evaporates and the solids are left behind, causing most of the oiled surfaces to seize and break.)

    As for a 10 or 20 HP gain by removing a 'carbon' filter, that appears to be morphing into somewhat of an urban legend, here and other forums.

    As I've said about the K&N, I did not buy it for any HP gains as I know that any such gain would be very modest at best and unmeasurable by my Butt Dyno. I buy K&N filters because they SAVE ME MONEY over time, and I can always have a clean filter in my vehicle (clean 'em twice a year instead of buying paper filters and discarding them).

    If somebody REALLY would like to see what a K&N does, then perhaps here is how to do it:

    Prior to installing a K&N filter, perform an oil and filter change to your preferred oil.

    At say, 5,000 miles, have an oil analysis done and note the results.
    You will also know how contaminated your oil is and whether or not you can go further on an oil change. Or even be alerted to other possible problems.

    Now, change the oil and filter again with the same grade oil and new filter.
    Install a K&N Air Filter.
    Drive 5,000 miles and have another engine oil analysis done.

    IF any extraneous particulate matter has gotten into the engine it will get into the oil and the analysis WILL show it.

    That's the way to 'test' the K&N filter against an OEM filter.

    A friend had a Ford Focus, I think it was, and he started doing oil analysis on it soon after he bought it. On the first test it indicated excess silica in the oil, which can only come by the engine ingesting it in the air. Well, he changed air filters, and checked things, and went on. Next oil change, he had another one done, and it kicked back same results. Apparently there was something amiss... Well, it turns out that there WAS an ill fitting part on the intake system, pretty hidden and unseen that was sucking unfiltered air into the engine. Had it gone on, it would have caused damage. But the oil analysis alerted him to the fact, and a thorough and complete inspection/examination of the intake system discovered it and allowed him to fix it.

    For what it's worth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Top Gear View Post
    I'm not sure if this applies to the Sedan, but consider this. The Coupes all have a very good CAI that is very hard to improve upon, as many modders have found out (but won't admit). For the 10-12 3.8 V6 Coupes in the US (not sure about the 13s), there is a low-restriction paper air filter and a secondary carbon filter next to each other in the airbox. The carbon filter is there to prevent gas fumes escaping back out, per the EPA. Removing that filter is easily a 10hp/20lbs or more "mod" with no downsides. The stock filter in these US cars is just as free-flowing as a K&N, so why bother with the problems a K&N brings. I did this on my car not too long ago and I was so pleased with the results I won't need any further mods...or not yet, anyway
    "When he drives a new car off the lot, it appreciates in value."

    2012 Genesis 3.8L V6, 333 HP
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  3. #33
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    Top Gear is offline Been here awhile... What I drive: Genesis Coupe 3.8 R-Spec
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    Default Re: C.A.I. Horsepower Gains

    The carbon filter deletion trick is no more an urban legend than a K&N filter upgrade, far less so, and costs nothing to try.

    My point was that for the 3.8 Coupe in the US (and perhaps other cars), the stock paper filter is actually close to a K&N in terms of air flow - but for that carbon filter cancelling it out. 3.8'ers who switch to a K&N report no change whatsoever, until they remove the carbon filter in this car. The two filters are designed to work together to be like a single normal filter but with added fume prevention. Removing the carbon filter and using only the stock thinner-style paper filter already in there gives you the same or better performance benefit as would switching to a K&N for a car with no extra carbon filter from the factory. I assure you, removing it was enough of a Butt Dyno boost for me to rave about it, especially on low-end torque and throttle response.

    The K&N "problems" I referred to are the oiling/drying out some people seem to have with K&N filters, or the potential questions one might get from a particular dealer in a warranty claim situation. Either problem might be moot with proper care of the filter or a more laid back dealer, but need to be considered, whereas staying with the 3.8 US Coupe filter is worry-free and regularly replaced same-for-same if serviced by the dealer. The dealer is unlikely to notice the carbon filter missing because of where it is, but even then it's easily replaced or explained away.

    Otherwise, I've got no problem running a K&N or other aftermarket filter

  4. #34
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    QuantumRift is offline Registered Member What I drive: Genesis 3.8 V6 Sedan
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    Default Re: C.A.I. Horsepower Gains

    There wouldn't be any 'warranty' situation with a K&N filter due to the legal issues covered by the Magnusen-Moss act of 1975 ( http://www.tundraheadquarters.com/bl...-new-warranty/ )

    K&N has their ducks in a row on this issue: "When you buy an OE replacement K&N High-Flow Air Filter or High-Flow Air Intake System you can be confident your vehicle’s warranty will remain in effect. If you experience a difficult dealership, K&N will resolve the issue so you won’t have to. We believe K&N makes The World’s Best Air Filter and we stand behind that claim 100 percent." But we all know this.

    Yea, I DO not have a 3.8 coupe (though I'd like to!).

    Are there any hard and fast dyno results on this? I know what the claims ARE; but its absolutely "interesting" that the simple removal of an activated charcoal element (filter) that essentially only absorbs unburnt hydrocarbons backflowing through the intake would "add" such HP or mpg gains. If car manufacturers are 'struggling' or working hard to get their fleet mpg averages up, it seems odd that this method (using the filter) would 'bog' down an engine so much when other, less 'taxing' methods could be utilized. Amazing.

    I use K&N for longevity, that's all. For example, an OEM Suzuki filter for my Suzuki Burgman 650 costs nearly $40 w/ tax. The K&N equivalent cost me about $52. That was almost 3 years ago. Based on ONE filter a year, that puts me on the plus side.


    Quote Originally Posted by Top Gear View Post
    The carbon filter deletion trick is no more an urban legend than a K&N filter upgrade, far less so, and costs nothing to try.

    My point was that for the 3.8 Coupe in the US (and perhaps other cars), the stock paper filter is actually close to a K&N in terms of air flow - but for that carbon filter cancelling it out. 3.8'ers who switch to a K&N report no change whatsoever, until they remove the carbon filter in this car. The two filters are designed to work together to be like a single normal filter but with added fume prevention. Removing the carbon filter and using only the stock thinner-style paper filter already in there gives you the same or better performance benefit as would switching to a K&N for a car with no extra carbon filter from the factory. I assure you, removing it was enough of a Butt Dyno boost for me to rave about it, especially on low-end torque and throttle response.

    The K&N "problems" I referred to are the oiling/drying out some people seem to have with K&N filters, or the potential questions one might get from a particular dealer in a warranty claim situation. Either problem might be moot with proper care of the filter or a more laid back dealer, but need to be considered, whereas staying with the 3.8 US Coupe filter is worry-free and regularly replaced same-for-same if serviced by the dealer. The dealer is unlikely to notice the carbon filter missing because of where it is, but even then it's easily replaced or explained away.

    Otherwise, I've got no problem running a K&N or other aftermarket filter

  5. #35
    Philth is offline Been here awhile... What I drive: Genesis/Equus In His/Her Dreams (Doesn't own one yet)
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    Default Re: C.A.I. Horsepower Gains

    Playing devil's advocate here...

    If K&N filters are so great, then why aren't ANY OEMs using them?

  6. #36
    QuantumRift's Avatar
    QuantumRift is offline Registered Member What I drive: Genesis 3.8 V6 Sedan
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    Default Re: C.A.I. Horsepower Gains

    To just kind of respond:

    1) The average schlep who buys a car doesn't want to have to fart around with recharging an air filter once a year or so. Kind of messy and not everybody wants to deal with it. Some people might even get PO'd if it was installed and they were not told about the upkeep on it. Even though it saves them money, most folks are just for convenience and will pay for convenience. I don't like to pay $5 a gallon for milk at Circle K, but what's my alternative? Drive several miles back into town to the grocery store to get it for $2.99 a gallon.

    2) In the 'saving money' vein, why would the car makers put in a K&N filter and cut their dealers out of a lucrative tune up part. What's an OEM filter list for at a dealer? Motorcraft as well as AC/DELCO sell 'aftermarket' parts and air filters. As I noted, the owners manual for my Suzuki recommends Suzuki OEM filters (air and oil).

    3) NAPA Gold oil filters (WIX) are noteworthy as being excellent filers. Why don't car makers use those?

    You could say that Mercedes engines are very good; why don't all manufacturers use Mercedes engines. Your question really doesn't apply at all.


    Cars used OIL BATH air cleaners for a long time, and when the time came the jump was made to paper filters when the technology was there. I just converted an early 60's Ford pickup from oil bath air cleaner to a paper cleaner. Much nicer.




    Quote Originally Posted by Philth View Post
    Playing devil's advocate here...

    If K&N filters are so great, then why aren't ANY OEMs using them?

  7. #37
    Philth is offline Been here awhile... What I drive: Genesis/Equus In His/Her Dreams (Doesn't own one yet)
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    Default Re: C.A.I. Horsepower Gains

    I see your point, but why would they use paper in Corvettes, Vipers, etc?

  8. #38
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    Default Re: C.A.I. Horsepower Gains

    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumRift View Post
    Yea, I DO not have a 3.8 coupe (though I'd like to!).
    They're awesome, I tell you
    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumRift View Post
    Are there any hard and fast dyno results on this? I know what the claims ARE; but its absolutely "interesting" that the simple removal of an activated charcoal element...
    Well...that's the thing. At first, I was going by the troll's haven which is "jen coupe dot com" (sic, which we cannot utter or link to here). Reading through all the BS from their snake oil salesmen (site sponsors), I kinda picked up on this thinking from some guys who figured it out, and then I thought, hey, it won't cost me to try it! So, I did and that's that. I wish I could give you some figures, but if you do a search and read up over there you'll see the trick is very common, and is easily a 10hp bump or more, whereas just doing a K&N alone is essentially worthless, due to that extra filter. And speaking of worthless, the carbon filter only comes into play in rare situations when there's a slight spitback, which wouldn't happen if you don't run crappy gas, and even then it's not every time you turn off the engine. Sooo......
    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumRift View Post
    ...Based on ONE filter a year, that puts me on the plus side.
    I hear you (and I'm diggin' your sense of humor, Man). I'm on a "premium service plan" with the dealer, so the filters are free, in a sense, as I'm already paying for coverage. It's pretty cool knowing I can drive hard and get my jollies and then take it in on a regular maintenance schedule...or for other goodies, even. My last car was "paid for" - which means it had 250k on it when I parted with it - so it's nice to have that "luxury", hence not wanting to muck it up with a pesky K&N

  9. #39
    QuantumRift's Avatar
    QuantumRift is offline Registered Member What I drive: Genesis 3.8 V6 Sedan
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    Default Re: C.A.I. Horsepower Gains

    +10

    Quote Originally Posted by top gear View Post
    they're awesome, i tell you

    Well...that's the thing. At first, i was going by the troll's haven which is "jen coupe dot com" (sic, which we cannot utter or link to here). Reading through all the bs from their snake oil salesmen (site sponsors), i kinda picked up on this thinking from some guys who figured it out, and then i thought, hey, it won't cost me to try it! So, i did and that's that. I wish i could give you some figures, but if you do a search and read up over there you'll see the trick is very common, and is easily a 10hp bump or more, whereas just doing a k&n alone is essentially worthless, due to that extra filter. And speaking of worthless, the carbon filter only comes into play in rare situations when there's a slight spitback, which wouldn't happen if you don't run crappy gas, and even then it's not every time you turn off the engine. Sooo......

    I hear you (and i'm diggin' your sense of humor, man). I'm on a "premium service plan" with the dealer, so the filters are free, in a sense, as i'm already paying for coverage. It's pretty cool knowing i can drive hard and get my jollies and then take it in on a regular maintenance schedule...or for other goodies, even. My last car was "paid for" - which means it had 250k on it when i parted with it - so it's nice to have that "luxury", hence not wanting to muck it up with a pesky k&n

  10. #40
    BlueGenny12 is offline Hasn't posted much yet... What I drive: Genesis 3.8 V6 Sedan
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    Default Re: C.A.I. Horsepower Gains

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowScoobySTi View Post
    I agree with most of your statement, however, I wouldnt go as far as saying manufacturers "super tune" their cars. My car runs pig rich, as evident by the black soot on my bumper and the black smoke that comes out at WOT. Its not a billowing plume of smoke, but its noticable. None the less, my car runs super rich.

    Most stock cars come under tuned (rich) for efficiency. Any BPU mod is worthless on these cars without a pro tune map. And since our cars are not tunable, then its a waste of money. Just my opinion.
    Sorry, but this is not necessarily accurate. The "black soot" is carbon leftovers from burning off the air and fuel. The soot doesn't necessarily distinguish rich or lean mixtures. In my opinion, even if they don't get you a ton of horsepower they DO help. The combustion in your engine accures in milliseconds. I would hardly say it's worthless that adding air to the engine could create a strongER combustion.

  11. #41
    IT-PRO is offline Hasn't posted much yet... What I drive: 2013 RSpec 5.0
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    Question Re: C.A.I. Horsepower Gains

    Sorry if I missed some of the good stuff, but was there ever a definite solution for the CIA, Tune? If so were there actual documented results?

  12. #42
    84FordMan is offline Registered Member What I drive: Genesis 4.6 V8 Tau Sedan
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    Default Re: C.A.I. Horsepower Gains

    On the 4.6, yes. Tuned two 4.6s back to back, one with a 3.5" CAI, the other with a 4" CAI, both nearly identical design, just the diameter difference. Once tuned, the 4" gapped the 3.5" by 12 WHP. The 3.5" diameter tubing was larger than the stock accordion tubing, as well as smoother transitions and no resonator chambers hanging off it either, but still shows it was not nearly large enough for what the 4.6 Tau actually needs.

    It is safe to assume the even larger 5.0 Tau is just as thirsty for air as the 4.6.
    -- 2010 3.8 Coupe Auto Bathurst Black -- (Gone)
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  13. #43
    yeggenny is offline Hasn't posted much yet... What I drive: 1G Genesis Sedan
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    Default Re: C.A.I. Horsepower Gains

    I did a custom mod and added an K&N filter to my 2011 3.8 Sedan. For 6 months i kept track of my fuel consumption going to and from work. Since adding the filter, Im averaging almost 1L/100 km better fuel mileage. Sorry dont know what that is in gallons, but for me that about $5 per gas tank in better fuel mileage.

  14. #44
    jmac is offline Hasn't posted much yet... What I drive: 2012 Genesis 5.0 V8
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    Default Re: C.A.I. Horsepower Gains

    It looks similar to the 5.0?? Check under the filter. If there is door-flap, remove it & get a K&N filter. It works great on the 5.0..

  15. #45
    Parasurfer1979 is offline Getting familiar with the group... What I drive: Genesis 4.6
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    Default Re: C.A.I. Horsepower Gains

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    Is there any tonal change? I'm wanting the extra MPG's but with little to no change in the sound. Not looking to have my Genesis sound like a Z28/Mustang. Is anyone willing to take a photo of this FLAP?

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