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Genesis Forum: 2015 Genesis Pricing, a bit more
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  1. #31
    Aquineas's Avatar
    Aquineas is offline Been here awhile... What I drive: Genesis 5.0 V8 Ultimate
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    Default Re: 2015 Genesis Pricing, a bit more

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    Well when (if?) the US version of the AWD V8 version of the Genesis is released, I suppose it will settle the argument. I generally agree with Italia though. I don't think the BMW RWD-AWD comparison numbers are entirely comparable as BMW tends to under-promise and over-deliver on power, whereas with the 2012-2014 5.0 Genesis, I'm of the opinion that it's de-tuned slightly (particularly for torque). As Nissan has discovered time and time again when they have aimed for the M3 with the 350 and 370z, German horses are a lot stouter.

    Personally, I'm estimating the AWD version of the Genesis will be about .1-.2s slower, so about 5.3 0-60, which is still pretty damned respectable.
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  2. #32
    ksoze is offline Registered Member What I drive: 2G Genesis 5.0 V8 Ultimate
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    Default Re: 2015 Genesis Pricing, a bit more

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquineas View Post
    I generally agree with Italia though. I don't think the BMW RWD-AWD comparison numbers are entirely comparable as BMW tends to under-promise and over-deliver on power, whereas with the 2012-2014 5.0 Genesis, I'm of the opinion that it's de-tuned slightly (particularly for torque).
    There might be shift in the original argument happening here. There is no comparison between car brands being attempted here by me. The HP rating between the cars being discussed here are the exact same - the 535i and 535iX have the exact same engine (as does the 550i & 550iX), so how they rate them to other brands does not matter, it's the same rating between the two F10 cars models.

    One will assume the new Genesis AWD and RWD model also share the exact same power plant, forget the viability of the rating. We do not have both drivetrain versions to gauge the 0-60 yet, so a similar platform may give some insight into the suggested "loss" of performance of AWD.

  3. #33
    italiabrain is offline Registered Member What I drive: Genesis 5.0 V8
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    Default Re: 2015 Genesis Pricing, a bit more

    Quote Originally Posted by ksoze View Post
    Scusa Italian, you are incorrect. Tests show the X drive versions of BMW's cars to be faster 0-60, with the same HP. It is not really that surprising - in some cases the gearing is different in the AWD drivetrains and the added traction to all fours wheels on full throttle will slow up any anti-slip nannies from coming on resulting in quicker 0-60.

    How will Hyundai's AWD versions fare? No idea, but based on other brands who use similar hardware (AWD), there may not be the gap you proposed. Even you agreed, quoting a MT test that had both BMW cars the same.
    How am I "incorrect"? I never said the Xi was slower than the i. I said the BMW trend wasn't comparable to the Genesis trend because the BMW benefits from significant low-end torque as a result of forced induction that the Genesis does not have.

    I also suggested that the Genesis was more likely IN MY OPINION to follow the trend of other NA cars with significant disparities in peak HP and low-end Torque such as the GS and Q50.

  4. #34
    crepen is offline Getting familiar with the group... What I drive: Genesis 3.8 V6 Sedan
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    Default Re: 2015 Genesis Pricing, a bit more

    Quote Originally Posted by italiabrain View Post
    I agree with you on pricing considerations, but not on performance numbers:

    The 535xi is underrated at 300hp and (if the previous generation is an indicator) the Genesis will be slightly overrated at 420. The actual difference at the wheels between the two is likely to be more like 80hp.

    Same for 0-60. Apples-to-apples: Motor Trend has the 535xi at 5.5s while they have the RSpec at 4.8s. Adding weight and drivetrain loss on AWD the new Genesis V8 Htrac will probably be in the 5.1 ballpark. Different, but not worlds apart.
    Sorry - you are right the 535xi is 300 not 241.

    Still, you think that BMW understates by 20 and Hyundai over by 20 (or some such combo adding up to 40hp)? What facts do you have to support this? I don't buy it.

    The G is bigger, faster, better kitted for less $. I have long been a BMW fan, but having driven recent BMWs (especially those on run-flats) the G is better suited to pot-holed CDN roads. It's not a fair fight.
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  5. #35
    italiabrain is offline Registered Member What I drive: Genesis 5.0 V8
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    Default Re: 2015 Genesis Pricing, a bit more

    Quote Originally Posted by crepen View Post
    Sorry - you are right the 535xi is 300 not 241.

    Still, you think that BMW understates by 20 and Hyundai over by 20 (or some such combo adding up to 40hp)? What facts do you have to support this? I don't buy it.

    The G is bigger, faster, better kitted for less $. I have long been a BMW fan, but having driven recent BMWs (especially those on run-flats) the G is better suited to pot-holed CDN roads. It's not a fair fight.
    On the Hyundai being over rated (at least vs industry standards), here's a comparison to a non-German car advertised as having 9 fewer horsepower than the Genesis:



    Edmunds on the same dyno has the 535 at 277. 277 vs 364... That's a difference of 87. I think that makes 80 a pretty good guess, don't you?

  6. #36
    tompass is offline Been here awhile... What I drive: Genesis 4.6 V8 Tau Sedan
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    Default Re: 2015 Genesis Pricing, a bit more

    Perhaps that has something to do with Hyundai downgrading HP numbers on 2015 models. I compared performance of Acura TL SH AWD to '13 Genesis 3.8. Genesis rated at 333HP and TL at 306HP but TL much faster 0-60.

  7. #37
    Aquineas's Avatar
    Aquineas is offline Been here awhile... What I drive: Genesis 5.0 V8 Ultimate
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    Default Re: 2015 Genesis Pricing, a bit more

    Quote Originally Posted by tompass View Post
    Perhaps that has something to do with Hyundai downgrading HP numbers on 2015 models. I compared performance of Acura TL SH AWD to '13 Genesis 3.8. Genesis rated at 333HP and TL at 306HP but TL much faster 0-60.
    I haven't checked this, but how close are they in weight?
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  8. #38
    tompass is offline Been here awhile... What I drive: Genesis 4.6 V8 Tau Sedan
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    Default Re: 2015 Genesis Pricing, a bit more

    Acura TL SH AWD 4001 Genesis 3.8 3824

  9. #39
    italiabrain is offline Registered Member What I drive: Genesis 5.0 V8
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    Default Re: 2015 Genesis Pricing, a bit more

    Quote Originally Posted by tompass View Post
    Perhaps that has something to do with Hyundai downgrading HP numbers on 2015 models. I compared performance of Acura TL SH AWD to '13 Genesis 3.8. Genesis rated at 333HP and TL at 306HP but TL much faster 0-60.
    I think downrating on the 2015 is just that. I would bet that on the dyno it actually gains a little bit of power (dual intake and increased compression ratio seem like definitive positives). I think they're just moving toward the industry standard in terms of how they rate it. I'm betting the dyno line will move up to match the peak HP of the M56, and the advertised rating is also moving down to match it.

    I haven't seen weight numbers for the 2015 Genesis in US spec 5.0 yet, but if the weight gain is minimal I wouldn't be surprised if the 275 rears and increased low-end torque shaved a tenth off the 2013 times.

    I didn't think the TL was that much faster, at least not the automatic. Allow for an AWD clutch dump and the TL might do 5 flat, but I've seen 5.5ish for the auto.

  10. #40
    tompass is offline Been here awhile... What I drive: Genesis 4.6 V8 Tau Sedan
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    Default Re: 2015 Genesis Pricing, a bit more

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    Yes, 5.5 for the TL SH AWD is about right but I have also seen 5.3 and 5.4. Don't think the Genny 3.8 can get there. I know the 4.6, which I have, is advertised at 5.3 but not so sure that is attainable unless completely defeating the ESC. So how can the heavier TL perform better than the lighter Genny with more advertised horsepower? 333/305.

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