Gas regular or premium???

[IBJanky]

I use regular as on all my vehicles.

None has blown up yet.

 

[zielritter]

There are many reasons, detailed in this and several other threads, and across many forums like this one. Minimum standards are possibly good enough, depending on the brand you run, to get you down the road unawares, but don't you want the best for your car?? Do you wash it? Wax it? Why would you bother with all that, or your "premium tech" package and lighted door sills, since none of it is specifically recommended in the manual?? In short, why put so much love into your car and then say there's no reason to put decent gas in it?

I can't even wrap my head around the washing/waxing comparison. Removing bird crap from your clear coat clearly has tangible benefits as does sealing your paint with a quality wax (not to mention the aesthetic pleasure benefit). Have you seen a 5+ year old car that has never been waxed or washed regularly? The Genesis's "creature comfort options" aren't recommended by anyone, but are personal preferences that subjectively improve the driving experience for some.

Premium gas serves one purpose - prevent/reduce detonation on turbo cars or NA cars with a high compression ratio where the ECU can't/won't compensate. In the case of the Tau, the computers can retard timing and do whatever I'm not smart enough to understand in order to run safely on regular, but you're a fool for marketing if you believe that premium will imbue an engine created to run only on regular with extra power or longevity.

Shell does have that commercial where they say you can pick up a few extra miles per tank using their premium, but I have no personal experience one way or another.

 

[EXBMWGUY]

This thread has more power than the hp gains from using premium!

Since someone used the work "crap" to describe certain gas, perhaps we could define that as cheap, brand(less) gas that does not meet Top Tier standards due to insufficient levels of detergent additives. Others would say E10 is crap, but we are politically outnumbered on that subject.

My R-Spec runs perfectly fine on top tier regular, midgrade or premium. Differences in fuel consumption between the grades are insignificant, if any, and frankly life is already complicated enough.

There are situations where premium is mandated, but most modern cars make the necessary adjustments before knock occurs. There are people who will go to the mat on this subject, saying that by the time the knock sensors do their job and the ECU makes the necessary adjustments, damage has already occurred. I won't argue with them, because some other argument would immediately follow that one. Life is too short (for me).

I am convinced that some marketing and branding efforts promoting premium gas (Shell and others) have been very effective with many people who like to feel good about making good decisions with car expenditures. Also, some car manufacturers like BMW have been pretty Gestapo-like in the way that they mandate premium fuels. They are purists, and are convinced that achieving 99.999% of the potential their cars have been designed for isn't good enough.

That brand of Kool-Aid is one of the reasons I am "EXBMWGUY", and happily enjoy buying high-quality, top-tier gas in either regular or midgrade (which is generally priced the same as regular at many stations in my area. My "butt-dyno" isn't that good anymore.

 

[Top Gear]

Thanks for the spirited responses!

All gas originates from the same drilling sources and really is all the same, but that is true ONLY until the gas companies start pumping in their additives before it gets to the station. If you accept the simple facts, you cannot argue there are no differences. You can choose to believe there is no difference, pointing to one rationalization or another, but the facts have been illustrated for decades across a wide range of independent sources.

That said, sure, the effects are definitely different for different drivers, cars, etc. If you drive a larger, heavier vehicle at slower speeds around town, and maybe don't keep your vehicles long, then no, you're not going to notice the difference. Settling for minimum standards in low-end gas might suit your world just fine, but that doesn't prove there are no differences, or that nobody could ever notice them. With nearly every vehicle I've ever had I could tell the difference between regular and premium, and between one brand or another. The racier the vehicle and/or the more you get attuned to it, the more these differences stand out.

I'm actually surprised this is even a question in a car enthusiast forum. If you care about your car, you should care about the gas you're putting in it.

 

[scottdk]

Which additive is better?:

Given the above discourse, it's obvious that we all want the gasoline with the best additive. Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Additives respond differently in different base gasoline's (even of the same grade). Also, some additives work better with gasoline's used in a carbureted car vs one that uses fuel injection. On a practical level, additives are going to be developed today for today's cars -- meaning fuel injected cars. For Corvette owners who have carbureted Vettes (like me), this is unfortunate. Carbureted engines leave a LOT more deposits behind than fuel injected cars. From a regulatory stand point, California was the first to call for all gasoline's to pass the BMW test (port-fuel-injected engine) in all grades of gasoline. Like all regulations, this one had various massages put to it, but the net effect was that all oil companies went to work developing additives that are a LOT better today than 10 years ago AND they are used in all grades (not just premium -- hence the argument to use premium to get a better additive went out the window).

Insider's trick on gasoline additives:

No matter what you do or what you drive, this trick will help you keep down deposits inside your engine. You see, additives themselves will make deposits and/or create a deposit that is different from the one made by base gasoline alone. If you think about this for a moment, you'll come to realize that your engine will build some kind of deposit based upon what additive you are using. Yes, it will build at a slower rate, but it will build deposits. At some level this will taper off (but this is maximum deposits and what Corvette owner wants that!). So what do you do? Simple, switch to a different brand of gasoline (this will almost assure you of getting a different additive but not always. Some companies buy additives from other companies, so it could be the same. More on this later). What this will do, is the new additive will look at the deposit formed from the old additive as foreign and begin removing it. Now after 5000 miles, you'll be rid of this deposit but you'll have a new one from your most recent additive, so switch back and start the process all over again. As an analogy, this is like building an immune response to an anti-biotic, so your doctor gives you a new one. I know of absolutely no additive that will work as well as switching back and forth between additives. On a molecular level this makes perfect sense.

Base gasoline:

Crude oil differs depending on where it's from, and consequently, what comes out of it when it's refined also differs. There are books on the subject and I can't possibly do the subject justice here. As the oil differs, what is available for blending and cutting is different. In the end, however, the refiner has to make economic choices, based on what's available to him from the oil he is refining, on how to get the required octane to sell (as well as meet MANY other criteria that make gasoline, gasoline -- again I can't do justice to it here). What I generally (but not exclusively) see is that BASE (no additive added to it -- you can't buy this, it isn't offered for sale) premium gasoline leaves less deposits behind than other grades. There are certain types of molecules in regular and mid-grade BASE gasoline's that simply do not exist in premium gasoline that cause much of this. Additives (see definition below) are added to the gasoline to help get rid of these deposits, and modern additives do a marvelous job of this. What you buy is additized gasoline.

More info on this old thread - A chemists view on octane and gasoline brands.

http://www.genesisowners.com/hyundai-genesis-forum/showthread.php?t=5401

 

[Potty_Pants]

Thanks for the spirited responses!

That said, sure, the effects are definitely different for different drivers, cars, etc. If you drive a larger, heavier vehicle at slower speeds around town, and maybe don't keep your vehicles long, then no, you're not going to notice the difference. Settling for minimum standards in low-end gas might suit your world just fine, but that doesn't prove there are no differences, or that nobody could ever notice them. With nearly every vehicle I've ever had I could tell the difference between regular and premium, and between one brand or another. The racier the vehicle and/or the more you get attuned to it, the more these differences stand out.

I'm actually surprised this is even a question in a car enthusiast forum. If you care about your car, you should care about the gas you're putting in it.

While i do care about my car and the gas used... I have not seen or had any performance benefits with using 93 octane gas . If there was any performance benefit I'd be using it instead of regular. The ECU adjusts for the octane rating of
the gas. These 5.0 Rspec's with the nanny tranny (under normal use) provide no value using 93 premium gas.

Past 3 or so cars used premium... so im suprised Regular works.

ppp

 

[Midnightsun]

Settling for minimum standards in low-end gas might suit your world just fine, but that doesn't prove there are no differences, or that nobody could ever notice them.

Here we go again. like I said, your problem is you associate Premium with better. Regular gas is not low end by any means. They need to add a bunch of junk to it so it is not as volatile and this additional process cost $. This is the only reason it cost more, not because it is better. Once you understand the word Premium is a marketing scheme you will finally come to your senses.

 

[zielritter]

Thanks for the spirited responses!

All gas originates from the same drilling sources and really is all the same, but that is true ONLY until the gas companies start pumping in their additives before it gets to the station. If you accept the simple facts, you cannot argue there are no differences. You can choose to believe there is no difference, pointing to one rationalization or another, but the facts have been illustrated for decades across a wide range of independent sources.

That said, sure, the effects are definitely different for different drivers, cars, etc. If you drive a larger, heavier vehicle at slower speeds around town, and maybe don't keep your vehicles long, then no, you're not going to notice the difference. Settling for minimum standards in low-end gas might suit your world just fine, but that doesn't prove there are no differences, or that nobody could ever notice them. With nearly every vehicle I've ever had I could tell the difference between regular and premium, and between one brand or another. The racier the vehicle and/or the more you get attuned to it, the more these differences stand out.

I'm actually surprised this is even a question in a car enthusiast forum. If you care about your car, you should care about the gas you're putting in it.

It seems like you're changing your argument mid-stream. First you were arguing that, given the same brand, premium grade is better for your car than regular even if the vehicle is tuned to run solely on regular. I disagree with you here.

Now, you seem to be arguing different brands of gasoline being superior or inferior. I have no argument here - I only use Shell or maybe a BP if I'm in a pinch. Different companies use different types and quantities of detergents, which definitely can have an impact on engine cleanliness.

 

[Mark_888]

While i do care about my car and the gas used... I have not seen or had any performance benefits with using 93 octane gas . If there was any performance benefit I'd be using it instead of regular. The ECU adjusts for the octane rating of
the gas. These 5.0 Rspec's with the nanny tranny (under normal use) provide no value using 93 premium gas.

Past 3 or so cars used premium... so im suprised Regular works.

ppp

Hyundai advertises two different HP ratings for the 4.6L based on whether regular or premium gas is used. The 4.6L gets about 7 more HP with premium compared to regular. EPA MPG estimates are based on premium only, since presumably that gives the highest MPG.

Whether or not these differences are large enough to offset the increased cost of premium gas is debatable, especially since very few people need 400+ HP (or whatever it is now for the 4.6).

Although the above information was published by Hyundai for the 4.6L, I am quite sure it also applies to the Hyundai 5.0L.

The reason why many newer engines can benefit (albeit slightly) from premium fuel is the ECU adjusts for the octane rating of the gas and converts that into more power, which also allows for better MPG at a given RPM.

 

[Mark_888]

It seems like you're changing your argument mid-stream. First you were arguing that, given the same brand, premium grade is better for your car than regular even if the vehicle is tuned to run solely on regular. I disagree with you here.

Due to computerization, etc of engine functions, many newer engines can be optimized to used different octane fuels and to take advantage of that to provide more HP and better MPG with higher octane fuel. Hyundai specifically claims that this is the case for the Tau V8 engine. Are you calling them liars?

Saying"even if the vehicle is tuned to run solely on regular" seem to be irrelevant for this discussion since that is not the case for the Tau V8 according to Hyundai.

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[zielritter]

Due to computerization, etc of engine functions, many newer engines can be optimized to used different octane fuels and to take advantage of that to provide more HP and better MPG with higher octane fuel. Hyundai specifically claims that this is the case for the Tau V8 engine. Are you calling them liars?

Saying"even if the vehicle is tuned to run solely on regular" seem to be irrelevant for this discussion since that is not the case for the Tau V8 according to Hyundai.

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not calling anyone a liar - hence why I specifically said vehicles "tuned to run solely on regular" in an attempt to exclude the Tau (which is clearly tuned to run on regular up to premium). I thought that part was clear but I guess not.

Maybe this will be more clear - The V6 is not tuned to run on premium. It will run on premium, but will not take advantage of the extra detonation resistance like the Tau does. The ECU on the V6 (and other vehicles not tuned to run on higher octane) will not advance spark timing (keeping it simple), per Hyundai, to make additional power. The whole MPG argument I'm not familiar with. Do you have anything from Hyundai that shows you get lower MPG using regular on the Tau or is that just conjecture from the disclosure that MPG estimates are formulated using Premium?

 

[zielritter]

Has anyone reviewed the Wikipedia page for the Genesis? I found this little nugget that seems to imply that the V6 makes its 333/291 running on premium. Thoughts?

Lambda 3.8 GDi 2011- 3,778 cc (230.5 cu in) V6 (3.8 Lambda GDi)/G6DJ 334 PS (246 kW; 329 hp)@6400, 40.3 kg·m (395 N·m; 291 lb·ft)@5100

Premium fuel: 338 PS (249 kW; 333 hp)@6400, 40.3 kg·m (395 N·m; 291 lb·ft)@5100

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Genesis

 

[Mark_888]

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not calling anyone a liar - hence why I specifically said vehicles "tuned to run solely on regular" in an attempt to exclude the Tau (which is clearly tuned to run on regular up to premium). I thought that part was clear but I guess not.

This is a Hyundai Genesis forum and in this thread the discussion seems to be about the Tau V8, so not sure about the relevancy of other engines. However, my suspicion is that many other new engines from other manufacturers behave in a similar fashion as the Genesis engines. In the realm of auto mechanics, old myths die hard, even when engine technology is vastly different than even 10-20 years ago.

Maybe this will be more clear - The V6 is not tuned to run on premium. It will run on premium, but will not take advantage of the extra detonation resistance like the Tau does. The ECU on the V6 (and other vehicles not tuned to run on higher octane) will not advance spark timing (keeping it simple), per Hyundai, to make additional power. The whole MPG argument I'm not familiar with.

That is interesting because I also thought it only applied to the Tau V8. But I tried mid-grade in by V6 and it gets at least 1 MPG better on the highway than with regular. All we know right now is that Hyundai makes no claims about regular vs premium on the V6, probably because people who get the V6 are more interested in economy (cheaper gas) than in more HP.

Do you have anything from Hyundai that shows you get lower MPG using regular on the Tau or is that just conjecture from the disclosure that MPG estimates are formulated using Premium?

Not specifically from Hyundai, but there is almost always a correlation between the two. Anecdotal feedback from some members on this forum is that MPG is slightly higher with premium on the V8, assuming one is testing at same exact speed. As I mentioned in an above post, I got 1 MPG better with mid-grade on my V6 (non-GDI version).

 

[zielritter]

This is a Hyundai Genesis forum and in this thread the discussion seems to be about the Tau V8, so not sure about the relevancy of other engines. However, my suspicion is that many other new engines from other manufacturers behave in a similar fashion as the Genesis engines. In the realm of auto mechanics, old myths die hard, even when engine technology is vastly different than even 10-20 years ago.

The OP drives a V6 and I was addressing his question. The V6 is a Lambda, not a Tau. Besides the point, I think we're on the same page.

How controlled were your regular vs premium comparisons out of curiosity? How many comparisons have you tried? It would indeed be interesting if higher octane yields better economy on the Lambda, but with so many potential variables I'm hesitant to draw conclusions. I guess it would also mean more power is made if you correlate the conclusions drawn from the Tau?

 

[Mark_888]

The OP drives a V6 and I was addressing his question. The V6 is a Lambda, not a Tau. Besides the point, I think we're on the same page.

How controlled were your regular vs premium comparisons out of curiosity? How many comparisons have you tried? It would indeed be interesting if higher octane yields better economy on the Lambda, but with so many potential variables I'm hesitant to draw conclusions. I guess it would also mean more power is made if you correlate the conclusions drawn from the Tau?

I have taken several 2-3 hour trips recently on fairly flat terrain on Interstate Highways and compared the MPG at the same highway speeds (65 MPH) using regular and mid-grade fuel. I use the dash display, which I know is not accurate (probably reads about 1 MPG high), but it should be accurate from a relative point of view when comparing two different fuels. I can reset the MPG display at any time (not just after a fill-up).

I am not saying that the 1 MPG increase will pay for the increase in cost of mid-grade (I am not sure), but I just think there is a lot of folklore about auto-mechanics that is now out-of-date due to the pervasive use of computer controlled engine technology for newer engines.

 

[Top Gear]

Wow, great discussion!

...like I said, your problem is you associate Premium with better...

Only because it is in this case. Sure, there's a lot of brand marketing involved, but again, that does not prove the negative. More octane, more effective additive detergents, and less ethanol gunk, yields "better" gas. That's why the term "premium" is used

...First you were arguing that, given the same brand, premium grade is better for your car than regular even if the vehicle is tuned to run solely on regular.

Did you mean to say "solely"? No car I know of is designed to run solely on the lowest grade. But yes, at a particular brand's pump, the premium is going to be better than the regular. The mid-grade is a mix of the two. Although, maybe "better" is a very small difference to some engines and to many drivers who wouldn't take notice. Also, the brand's best additive mixes are usually in the premium, not in the regular, and mixed partly in the mid-grade.

Now, you seem to be arguing different brands of gasoline being superior or inferior.

Yes, there is a wider variety between brands and ethanol blends than between grades in one brand.

...I am not saying that the 1 MPG increase will pay for the increase in cost of mid-grade (I am not sure), but I just think there is a lot of folklore about auto-mechanics that is now out-of-date due to the pervasive use of computer controlled engine technology for newer engines.

Gee, I've seen swings of 20-30% or more between various grades, blends and brands. True story. Mileage gains are something I've seen in a number of vehicles running premium, but also, the performance and efficiency of having the engine run its best, at optimal computer settings, should speak for itself. Yes, new computers can adjust to some extent, but why would anyone want their engine to be running on its lowest settings?

I don't know what everyone's car histories are in this discussion, but some of you must have been buying the same brand and grade and driving very sedately for your whole driving life to be so convinced it's all hype and there are no differences? I've tried nearly all brands over decades and in a wide variety of vehicles and engine loads, and every gearhead I've ever known has reached the same conclusion: Premium is just better than regular, and top brand gas is better than no-name, which often lacks the better additives.

Is this only brand mystique and marketing? No. It's experience with the chemistry the Top Tier companies put in which makes these differences what they are. Just because some low-end regular cheapo gas will run in your pride and joy does not mean there is no difference between fuels. It just means you don't care about this issue

 

[Midnightsun]

I know this will not change your mind because it is obviously set, set so hard the it is acting like a placebo in your mind and you actually see/feel a difference. In a last ditch effort to help you see the light, here is an article for you to read. This is not a forum or typical rag or some hear say. This is from the US Federal Trade Commission. If you don't believe them then all hope is unfortunately lost. http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0210-paying-premium-high-octane-gasoline

 

[PMCErnie]

I use regular as on all my vehicles.

None has blown up yet.

Agreed, and very incisive. I put regular gas in my car and it goes forward with alacrity.

 

[Mark_888]

I know this will not change your mind because it is obviously set, set so hard the it is acting like a placebo in your mind and you actually see/feel a difference. In a last ditch effort to help you see the light, here is an article for you to read. This is not a forum or typical rag or some hear say. This is from the US Federal Trade Commission. If you don't believe them then all hope is unfortunately lost. http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0210-paying-premium-high-octane-gasoline

I read the link and it says "Read Your Owner’s Manual." I read the owners manual (and other official Hyundai information) and it says that premium will result about 7 more HP than regular, for the V8.

Besides, I am not taking any government employee's word for anything.

 

[Top Gear]

Well, I am still unmoved, my friend I do love your sense of humor about it, Midnightsun, really, and so...I find the FTC's opinion-driven page has two takeaways:

First, "check your manual", which in my case the owner's manual literally recommends "Top Tier" fuel with a link, it mentions using higher octane, it warns about ethanol, and it notes the car will run on 87/E10 as a bare minimum standard, but to move up to higher grades if there is any problem. This sane advice from Hyundai goes along with my experience with hi-performance engines, and just getting the most out of any engine.

Second, the FTC page is all about octane, and if you read me more closely, you'll see I've not argued that octane is the whole story, or even a major part of it. I've been talking about "detergent additives", which octane is not. "Premium" top-branded fuels have the best of these additives, and that is a fact. The marketing budget is irrelevant to that.

I've also been talking here and in other threads about the evils of ethanol (despite my views on Peak Oil), which creates a whole new level of comparison between fuels...