Possible discussion regarding the 2015 RSPEC

[Mark_888]

Not much of a price differential between a 2014 GS 350 AWD and '15 Genesis 3.8 Htrac. Really wanted the 5.0 AWD but when it was determined that it was not going to be available in US market, I had to seriously consider other 6 cylinder options of which the GS 350 stood out at that price point. I think the Genesis will do well and is likely a big step forward for Hyundai.

I don't think you will regret it. No matter how good the Genesis is, the fact of the matter is that a Lexus is a panty-dropper, and a Hyundai is not.

 

[tompass]

At my age, the women are dropping their depends....

 

[YEH]

The A7 is closer in size, but it's a "4-door coupe". All of those cars are more expensive than their standard sedan siblings.

Nonetheless, the Genesis is larger than anything in its class.

All this talk about competing against the Germans is a bit superfluous b/c the Genesis really only has to compete against the Japanese and Hyundai did not develop the 2G Genesis to be a full-fledged sports sedan (if they did, they would have made it smaller).

FI and low-end torque are practically interchangeable terms for mass-market production vehicles.

Well, I guess the Germans have gone full-throttle on mass market (how 'bout those 4 cyl powered 5 Series and A6's?).

The way I see it Hyundai would have released an FI engine with the 1G refresh if they were totally serious about competing, since that's when all the Germans were doing it. To not release one at launch on the 2G isn't even keeping up with "fast follower". Now if they release an RSpec with one in the next couple months that's moot...

Again, really competing against the Japanese for right now and most automakers don't coincide the launch of a new body with powertrains and instead, separate them (doing the new powertrain for the MCE) as means to increase sales after the MCE.

Furthermore, it was better for Hyundai not to do DI for the 1G Genesis b/c in the luxury game (at least the luxury game that Hyundai is playing - mostly against the Japanese), starting off on the right foot when it comes to reliability is crucial and FI powerplants have had their issues (see BMW and Audi) and even Hyundai's reliability ratings (same goes for Ford) have dropped as they have moved to FI engines on many of their mainstream offerings.

I don't think you will regret it. No matter how good the Genesis is, the fact of the matter is that a Lexus is a panty-dropper, and a Hyundai is not.

Really?

The ES, RX and CT?

 

[dareaction]

The Lexus GS is a significantly smaller, lighter car, anyway Q-mile times are a much better indicator of overall acceleration than 0-60. 3 tenths between the A6 and 5.0 in Q-mile, not half a second . If straight line performance is your primary goal why not the new Impala SS? Yeah the old Genesis was a few tenths quicker to 60, but the ride-handling of the 15 is far superior to the old car according to everything read. The new Genesis is about so much more than just straight line acceleration. Would I like a faster R spec ? Sure I would, but if it is a few tenths of a second behind a Audi S7 I don't think it's a big deal.

The Genesis 5.0 is significantly slower than the S7. Acceleration times of the S7 and S6 are virtually interchangeable. The S6 can hit 60 in less than 4 sec with launch control and the S7 is nearly neck and neck.

 

[dreamerak]

The Genesis 5.0 is significantly slower than the S7. Acceleration times of the S7 and S6 are virtually interchangeable. The S6 can hit 60 in less than 4 sec with launch control and the S7 is nearly neck and neck.

If you look at the last part of my post you will see I'm referencing a possible Gen 2 R spec vs a S7, Car and Driver recorded a 4.3 0-60 and 12.7 Q-mile for the S7. Notice also the S7 weighs 4459 lbs and is nearly identical in size to a 15 Genesis.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...erm-test-update-review-long-term-intro-page-2

 

[dareaction]

If you look at the last part of my post you will see I'm referencing a possible Gen 2 R spec vs a S7, Car and Driver recorded a 4.3 0-60 and 12.7 Q-mile for the S7. Notice also the S7 weighs 4459 lbs and is nearly identical in size to a 15 Genesis.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...erm-test-update-review-long-term-intro-page-2

The S7 was also clocked by Motortrend at 3.9 sec 0-60 and 1/4 mi 12.3 sec so again the S6 and S7 can both crack the 4 sec barrier.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1304_audi_s7_bmw_650i_gran_coupe_xdrive_mercedes_benz_cls550_4matic/

And I didn't see that last part about possible R-Spec so my apologies. I don't however believe Hyundai would make this version Genesis that fast for a sport model. Hopefully a low to mid 4 sec run.

 

[italiabrain]

The Lexus GS is a significantly smaller, lighter car

Not in proportion. The GS is a little smaller and a lot lighter. Saying the GS is lighter doesn't change the math though, the heart of the problem is that the 15 Genesis is just too heavy, even after considering its size. The GS is mid-size RWD luxury car and that is the target of the Genesis.

Q-mile times are a much better indicator of overall acceleration than 0-60.

Maybe, but you just argued we'd never notice 0-60 times if we weren't drag racing. How do you switch from that to a quarter mile flat-out as a more reasonable comparison? And again, the cars it does close on in the quarter are still 6 cylinders...

If straight line performance is your primary goal why not the new Impala SS?

It's not, and I never said it was. I want a luxury cruiser that will take off when I drop the hammer, hence the conspicuous and repeated comparison to cars that fill that niche (and again, cars which Hyundai states it intends as competitors -- The E550/550i/A6).

Would I like a faster R spec ? Sure I would, but if it is a few tenths of a second behind a Audi S7 I don't think it's a big deal.

Again, you've missed the point completely. The S7 is in the 3's!!! I'm not asking Hyundai for something to compete with the S6/S7/E63/CLS63/M5. I just want something that will at least be reasonably close to an E550. If Hyundai releases an Rspec that's just a wheel-and-suspension package like the last one, or even one that includes a minor tune on the 5.0 we still aren't even in E550 territory. There's no need to even discuss AMG/S/M at this point. We've got a full second to drop on 0-60 to one-up the normal E550.

My simple hope is to get an RSpec that competes with the current E550 with sport package.

 

[italiabrain]

All this talk about competing against the Germans is a bit superfluous b/c the Genesis really only has to compete against the Japanese

Again, really competing against the Japanese for right now

I get your point, but I think it's an overstatement. If would-be Japanese sales are all they're shooting for they're in some trouble. Acura and Infiniti aren't exactly moving a lot of product, and as previously mentioned Lexus' midsize competitor keeps up with the 5.0 in V6 trim, largely killing the price advantage of the Hyundai.

Even if I were to concede your point completely, the '15 Genesis still can't run with the M56. As the only Japanese V8 midsize, and the only naturally aspirated competitor that doesn't speak well either.

...most automakers don't coincide the launch of a new body with powertrains and instead, separate them (doing the new powertrain for the MCE) as means to increase sales after the MCE.

This isn't true as a generality. The M56 was released as a new body style (so was the smaller G37), and the new CTS vsport was as well. I suspect that the "FI revolution" with the Germans had more to do with Euro regulations about gas mileage and emissions (as well as Euro fuel prices).

Furthermore, it was better for Hyundai not to do DI for the 1G Genesis b/c in the luxury game (at least the luxury game that Hyundai is playing - mostly against the Japanese), starting off on the right foot when it comes to reliability is crucial and FI powerplants have had their issues (see BMW and Audi) and even Hyundai's reliability ratings (same goes for Ford) have dropped as they have moved to FI engines on many of their mainstream offerings.

This is about the only argument I have any real sympathy for. I totally agree they need a bulletproof one before they release one, but they need to get to work and make that bulletproof one.

The Tau has been around for a while, and Hyundai has been turbocharging for a while. It's time to combine them. TBH I'd also be fine with a 5/60 powertrain specifically for Rspec high-performance FI models. That would probably go over better if it were part of a separate N (or whatever they call it) division.

 

[ksoze]

I am becoming more convinced, Hyundai will take the luxury route rather than the sport route with this model. Those who are the target buyers for the Genesis, those moving up market, will value luxury items more than HP, 0-60 times or G force ratings. I think attempts at half-executed sport versions will hurt the cars image, where the luxury slant is easier to compete with, as they have just done. The bar to beat the germans on electronics, luxury and cost of ownership is easier to win - challenging cars with decades of proven motorsports experience and history is a higher mountain to climb.

 

[dreamerak]

Not in proportion. The GS is a little smaller and a lot lighter. Saying the GS is lighter doesn't change the math though, the heart of the problem is that the 15 Genesis is just too heavy, even after considering its size. The GS is mid-size RWD luxury car and that is the target of the Genesis.



Maybe, but you just argued we'd never notice 0-60 times if we weren't drag racing. How do you switch from that to a quarter mile flat-out as a more reasonable comparison? And again, the cars it does close on in the quarter are still 6 cylinders...



It's not, and I never said it was. I want a luxury cruiser that will take off when I drop the hammer, hence the conspicuous and repeated comparison to cars that fill that niche (and again, cars which Hyundai states it intends as competitors -- The E550/550i/A6).



Again, you've missed the point completely. The S7 is in the 3's!!! I'm not asking Hyundai for something to compete with the S6/S7/E63/CLS63/M5. I just want something that will at least be reasonably close to an E550. If Hyundai releases an Rspec that's just a wheel-and-suspension package like the last one, or even one that includes a minor tune on the 5.0 we still aren't even in E550 territory. There's no need to even discuss AMG/S/M at this point. We've got a full second to drop on 0-60 to one-up the normal E550.

My simple hope is to get an RSpec that competes with the current E550 with sport package.

The Lexus GS is a size class below the 15 Genesis as is the Audi 6, BMW 5 series and E class.

The E 550 has a twin turbo V8, it competes with the S6. The BMW 535i with A6 and E 350

Sounds like you want a E 550, I suggest you hurry, MB says it will be dropped after the 14 model year.

Motor Trend says S7 3.9, Car & Driver 4.3, Road & Track 4.0 that still averages to 4's!!!

I'm not missing your point, I just disagree that the Genesis 5.0 has to be as fast as smaller, lighter cars to be a success. It is very close to the supercharged $80K+ A7 (5.1 @ C&D), a car which it is also very close to in size. I have a lot of experience with turbocharged engines and I'm not so sure a performance turbo in a heavy car like the 15 Genesis can meet Hyundai durability requirements for their 10 year 100,000 mile powertrain warranty. The Germans are all 4 years 50,00 miles on powertrain warranty I believe. It will be interesting to see what Hyundai does with the R spec.

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[italiabrain]

The Lexus GS is a size class below the 15 Genesis as is the Audi 6, BMW 5 series and E class.

Not really, the genesis is slightly larger than all of them, but it's not designed to compete with the A8/7/S either. It's not in a whole different class. It's also very convenient of you to ignore the fact that Hyundai is naming these cars as intended competitors.

The E 550 has a twin turbo V8, it competes with the S6.

The performance, price, and marketing of the two suggest otherwise. Audi is a bit of an oddball. You could argue the RS line are closer to true AMG and M competitors, but the A6 3.0"T" is a much closer competitor to the E550 than the new Genesis is. If you think the A6 belongs in the E350 class that only becomes a bigger problem. Audi's S is an "in-between" version which Mercedes plans to pick up doing as well with "AMG-sport" on the 15 C-class.

Sounds like you want a E 550

I don't get why you keep doing this. I want a Genesis with a drivetrain that can compete with the E550. I actually directly said this... There are plenty of things to like about the Genesis. The 5.0 itself might have even been fine to stay if the car hadn't gained 400lbs.

It is very close to the supercharged $80K+ A7 (5.1 @ C&D), a car which it is also very close to in size.

ROFL. I love how you have no problem turning your argument 180 degrees to suit another point. The A7 still beats the Genesis V8 by 0.4 and you consider that to be in the 535 / E350 group. I also love that you hit S7 pricing...

I have a lot of experience with turbocharged engines and I'm not so sure a performance turbo in a heavy car like the 15 Genesis can meet Hyundai durability requirements...

It is absolutely hilarious to me that you think the weight of a vehicle has an direct impact on the lifetime of a turbo. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the mechanism behind that added wear.

Warranty might very well be a major concern, but it wouldn't exactly be Hyundai's first turbo.

 

[Mark_888]

Really?

The ES, RX and CT?

Yes really. Most women, especially older ones, only know the name Lexus has prestige and don't know much about individual models. But I was really talking about a Lexus in the same price range as Genesis.

 

[Mark_888]

At my age, the women are dropping their depends....

You gotta take whatever you can get.

 

[tompass]

I think I will pass and rest on my laurels....

 

[dreamerak]

It is absolutely hilarious to me that you think the weight of a vehicle has an direct impact on the lifetime of a turbo. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the mechanism behind that added wear.

Warranty might very well be a major concern, but it wouldn't exactly be Hyundai's first turbo.

If you think a turbocharged engine in a heavy car, which will be needed to achieve E 550 acceleration, is going to last as long as a large naturally aspirated V8, then I'm the one ROFL.

 

[dareaction]

If you think a turbocharged engine in a heavy car, which will be needed to achieve E 550 acceleration, is going to last as long as a large naturally aspirated V8, then I'm the one ROFL.

Modern turbos have a life expectancy roughy similar to naturally aspirated engines. Turbos have been used and refined for decades now. Every single heavy duty truck uses a turbo diesel.

 

[italiabrain]

If you think a turbocharged engine in a heavy car, which will be needed to achieve E 550 acceleration, is going to last as long as a large naturally aspirated V8, then I'm the one ROFL.

Way to ignore what I actually said in order to avoid answering the question.

 

[italiabrain]

.

 

[Midnightsun]

Turbos are getting better but they are not all as reliable as naturally aspirated engines. What the heck do you expect when you spin something on bearings at 80,000 to 200,000 rpm.

"Not all is going smoothly in the world of turbocharging, with some modern early adopters, and their customers, having already experienced serious flaws. Notable among them is BMW, which faced a class action lawsuit in 2010 over its N54 engine used in 2007-2012 1 Series, 3 Series, 5 Series, X6, and Z4 models. "

Heck the masters of German tech and turbos still have not got it down pat.

 

[dareaction]

That problematic twin turbo was replaced quickly by the much more reliable twin scroll TwinPower single turbo N55 engine.

Based on your assumption Hyundai needs a bigger more powerful, thirstier V8 to better compete with cars like the E550 than a smaller turbo engine.

Hyundai already has multiple turbo engines of various sizes among its 4-cylinder engine families with Hyundai's 10 year warranty so I'm sure in time there will be bigger Hyundai turbo engines with the same warranty.