New Luxury SUV's from Rolls Royce and Aston Martin

[Mcc]

No way - that would have created an even bigger problem for them!

Precisely what I think also

 

[Mcc]

That speculation would not be cured by knowing what Genesis Motors executives have to say about this, because they most likely are making ridiculous excuses (or in some cases outright lying) to keep their jobs in the face of the Genesis USA rollout fiasco, and the lack of SUVs.

You always assume the worst possible case to make your point, again without considering other reasonable alternatives. Such extreme positions only serve to lessen your credibility. Maybe Raphael “could” be right. Only time will tell. The story is still unfolding. You know through some sort of psychic power that he is wrong and is lying.

 

[Mark_888]

Of course, you conveniently gloss over the fact that everyone else existed as standalone brands/companies for many years... Genesis was not even annnounced as a standalone brand until November 4, 2015? Who knows what resources were actually in place to really develop broad, actionable plans and procure required funding/resources before that? Do you know?

The stand alone brand issue is a bit more complicated. The Genesis was from the beginning a standalone brand in Korea since 2008, and was imported into the USA as a Hyundai, because HMA wanted to improve the brand image of Hyundai in the USA. That is why we were able to replace our flying H's with wings obtained from the parts departments of Genesis in Korea. There have never been any flying H's on the Genesis or Equus in Korea, so they were in effect, a separate brand in Korea.

But it doesn't make any difference anyway, because they spent lots of money on the 2nd generation Genesis introduced for sale in 2014 as a 2015 model (sold as a Hyundai in the USA) and on the 2017 Genesis G90 introduced in 2016, and those projects started long before they decided to create a Genesis brand in the USA. I believe that the G70 project also started before they decided to create a Genesis brand in the USA. So they could have (had they understood the market) also started a RWD SUV project before they actually did.

So the fact is that they missed the SUV market compared to the rest of the automotive industry. If most or even some of competition had likewise missed the market, one could understand, but it looks to me like Genesis Motors (or their parent Hyundai) is dead last in their class. That (and the Genesis USA rollout fiasco) doesn't bode well for having confidence in their current management.

You seem to assume a lot of things without any direct knowledge or inside information. Of course, if it makes you feel better/validates you, continue with your constant complaining of how screwed up Genesis is as I'm sure that will fix everything. lol.

It doesn't make me feel better at all. As far as fixing things, the main point is that if you want correct decisions made today that will affect the company in the future, you have to have the correct people in place to make those decisions. I have no confidence at all in the current Genesis management, based on their track record so far.

It's funny, but Hyundai fired the HMA CEO in Dec 2014 (John Krafcik, who now runs Waymo at Google), and then fired the HMA CEO again (Zuchowski) a couple of years later, and no one on this forum complained. So why all the complaints now about a call to replace the current Genesis Motors management for some rather obvious screwups.

 

[Mark_888]

You always assume the worst possible case to make your point, again without considering other reasonable alternatives. Such extreme positions only serve to lessen your credibility. Maybe Raphael “could” be right. Only time will tell. The story is still unfolding. You know through some sort of psychic power that he is wrong and is lying.

I hesitate to characterize what Raphael said, other than to say he tried to defend his actions (or actions of others) as best he can, which would be expected. I am not going to criticize someone for not suggesting that they should be fired for their screwups.

As a former manager (before retirement) I had to evaluate the performance of many people. In the field I worked in, the best person as valuable as 10 of the worst people. People have to be evaluated base on what they do and how they perform, not on what they "say" about their performance. IMO, the actual performance of Genesis management, in the rollout of the brand in the USA and in lack of planning for the SUV market, has been abysmal, and is an embarrassment to the company. Hearing what the individual people have to say about their performance, doesn't change the fact that the performance has been abysmal.

 

[Mcc]

It doesn't make me feel better at all. As far as fixing things, the main point is that if you want correct decisions made today that will affect the company in the future, you have to have the correct people in place to make those decisions. I have no confidence at all in the current Genesis management, based on their track record so far.

It's funny, but Hyundai fired the HMA CEO in Dec 2014 (John Krafcik, who now runs Waymo at Google), and then fired the HMA CEO again (Zuchowski) a couple of years later, and no one on this forum complained. So why all the complaints now about a call to replace the current Genesis Motors management for some rather obvious screwups.

Alright I think we are finally getting somewhere based on what you say above. What you say means to me that it’s the Hyundai Motors America management of 2014 that was all screwed up. CEOs John Krafcik and Zuchowski messed up Hyundai Motor America and were fired maybe because of that. Now the current General Manager of Genesis has nothing to do with them. He wasn’t appointed until 2016. Why should he be saddled with their sins. What would you expect him to do differently in the two years he has been in place? Why do you have no confidence in him? What part of his track record gives you trouble?

 

[Johnboy2k10]

Not to derail a completely futile debate, but to answer the OP, here is the Genesis' CUV/SUV.

Genesis GV80 Test Mule Spotted Ahead of SUV's 2019 Arrival » AutoGuide.com News

 

[Mark_888]

Alright I think we are finally getting somewhere based on what you say above. What you say means to me that it’s the Hyundai Motors America management of 2014 that was all screwed up. CEOs John Krafcik and Zuchowski messed up Hyundai Motor America and were fired maybe because of that. Now the current General Manager of Genesis has nothing to do with them. He wasn’t appointed until 2016. Why should he be saddled with their sins. What would you expect him to do differently in the two years he has been in place? Why do you have no confidence in him? What part of his track record gives you trouble?

No, I am not saying that. No one (even in the press) ever explained or came up with a theory as to why Krafcik was fired as HMA CEO. He was at one point considered a hero for being part of the Hyundai Genesis development team. I think it was probably because he did have a personality that was too flamboyant and did not fit well with Korean management (he looks and acts a lot like the infamous John DeLorean from GM and later DeLorean Motors).
John DeLorean - Wikipedia
John Krafcik was voted the automotive excutive of the year right before the was fired. Krafcik is now head of Waymo Self Driving Car project at Google.

Zuchowski took over as HMA CEO after Krafcik and lasted only a couple of years. He was formerly head of HMA marketing and was highly lauded as the person who came up with the Hyundai Assurance Plan after the great recession (Hyundai would buy your car back if you lost your job, etc) and other well-received marketing plans in th USA. He was supposedly fired for not meeting sales targets, probably because he didn't have enough SUV's to sell.

Raphael is the General Manager of Genesis USA, not of Genesis Motors. He was involved in making the decisions about having only 100 dealers, which we have since learned violated the existing franchise agreements and state franchise laws. That alone is enough to remove him, but obviously that is just my opinion.

There is guy named Fitzgerald who is head of Genesis Motors worldwide. I don't know what decisions he made regarding the Genesis models. But I don't think that the former HMA CEO's had much, if anything, to do with it.

 

[Mark_888]

Not to derail a completely futile debate, but to answer the OP, here is the Genesis' CUV/SUV.

Genesis GV80 Test Mule Spotted Ahead of SUV's 2019 Arrival » AutoGuide.com News

That looks just like the Hyundai Santa Fe. I am sure there is a car somewhere, but not sure that is it.

 

[joneillnj]

Not to derail a completely futile debate, but to answer the OP, here is the Genesis' CUV/SUV.

Genesis GV80 Test Mule Spotted Ahead of SUV's 2019 Arrival » AutoGuide.com News

And here we have a RR Cullinan test mule from over 3 years ago, meaning actual devlopment had likely started at least 1-2 years prior - long before Genesis was a standalone brand:

Rolls-Royce has done some crazy things with its first SUV prototype

So these things do take time to develop and get to market - the Cullinan will not be available until later this year or early 2019 (no official release date set yet)!

 

[Mark_888]

And here we have a RR Cullinan test mule from over 3 years ago, meaning actual devlopment had likely started at least 1-2 years prior - long before Genesis was a standalone brand:

Rolls-Royce has done some crazy things with its first SUV prototype

So these things do take time to develop and get to market - the Cullinan will not be available until later this year or early 2019 (no official release date set yet)!

As I have explained before, the G80 and G90 were started long before there was a Genesis brand. Also the G70. The start of the brand had nothing to do with it.

Whatever the date of the RR SUV is, they beat Genesis.

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[Sal Collaziano]

As I have explained before, the G80 and G90 were started long before there was a Genesis brand. Also the G70. The start of the brand had nothing to do with it.

Whatever the date of the RR SUV is, they beat Genesis.

In my opinion, the only logical reason for there being no Genesis CUVs available right now - is there was no internal assurance that a luxury sub-brand would be created - and no real need for RWD/AWD CUVs. If "Genesis Motors" never became a thing - the Sante Fe would have sufficed - and I believe that's what happened.

 

[Mcc]

As I have explained before, the G80 and G90 were started long before there was a Genesis brand. Also the G70. The start of the brand had nothing to do with it.

Whatever the date of the RR SUV is, they beat Genesis.

Yes they beat the Genesis. Do you think Genesis had its hands full getting the G90 and G80 (2018 model) ready plus the G70 which they could do much faster than an all new SUV. Otherwise they would have nothing for quite a while. You might say they could do everything all at the same time. I am not so sure with a new brand. Any misstep would certainly draw criticism for over reaching. But then hindsight is always perfect.

So how many new products was RR putting out during this time, and in what volume?

 

[Mark_888]

Yes they beat the Genesis. Do you think Genesis had its hands full getting the G90 and G80 (2018 model) ready plus the G70 which they could do much faster than an all new SUV. Otherwise they would have nothing for quite a while. You might say they could do everything all at the same time. I am not so sure with a new brand. Any misstep would certainly draw criticism for over reaching. But then hindsight is always perfect.

So how many new products was RR putting out during this time, and in what volume?

Hyundai (not even counting Kia) sold 4.5 million vehicles in 2017. They missed their sales target of 5.08 million units by 10%.

RR sold 3,362 vehicles in 2017, and I believe they are still mostly handmade. So comparing RR to Hyundai is kind of ridiculous.

I assume that one of the main reasons that Hyundai missed their target is that they didn't have the right kind of vehicles available to sell.

I completely disagree that they could do the G70 much faster than a SUV. I believe the exact opposite is true. All they needed to do (what others have done) is take the Genesis (aka G80) platform and raise the road clearance up to 8" (from about 5"), change the spring and shock rates a little bit, put on bigger wheels, and redo the external sheet metal and interior in the shape of an SUV. The drivetrains could remain exactly the same. Many other automakers have done this also, where their highly successful SUV is based on the same platform as an existing sedan.

The G70 was a brand new platform that required redesign from scratch.

 

[Mark_888]

In my opinion, the only logical reason for there being no Genesis CUVs available right now - is there was no internal assurance that a luxury sub-brand would be created - and no real need for RWD/AWD CUVs. If "Genesis Motors" never became a thing - the Sante Fe would have sufficed - and I believe that's what happened.

Well, they could have made an enhanced version of the Santa Fe, with more soundproofing, better suspension, better interior materials, more gadgets, etc. That's what Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, etc have done, and they have made billions of profit doing it. They could have sold that as a Genesis SUV, even if they kept selling them at Hyundai dealers.

BTW, I no longer am going to use the CUV term, and only say SUV to cover both of them. That's what MB does.

 

[joneillnj]

So comparing RR to Hyundai is kind of ridiculous.

. Lol - says the guy who started this thread bitching about how about RR will have an SUV (next year) and Genesis does not...

 

[Mark_888]

. Lol - says the guy who started this thread bitching about how about RR will have an SUV (next year) and Genesis does not...

The point is that RR is one of the lowest volume manufactures, and probably the slowest moving one on the planet, and if you can't beat them to market then it is a disgrace. Kind of like getting beaten up by a girl on the playground.

 

[joneillnj]

Well, they could have made an enhanced version of the Santa Fe, with more soundproofing, better suspension, better interior materials, more gadgets, etc. That's what Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, etc have done, and they have made billions of profit doing it. They could have sold that as a Genesis SUV, even if they kept selling them at Hyundai dealers.

BTW, I no longer am going to use the CUV term, and only say SUV to cover both of them. That's what MB does.

Did you ever stop to think that Genesis might want to actually do it better than the competition and not just be a me too brand? They cleary stated from the beginning that their strategy was rear whee drive platforms - deal with it.

 

[Mark_888]

Did you ever stop to think that Genesis might want to actually do it better than the competition and not just be a me too brand? They clearly stated from the beginning that their strategy was rear whee drive platforms - deal with it.

As I explained above (maybe you missed it), they could have converted the Genesis (G80) platform to a RWD SUV faster than creating the brand new G70 platform. That's probably what they did anyway.

The point about basing it on the FWD platform was if they continued to sell the Genesis at Hyundai dealers. It was brought up that they didn't want a RWD SUV if there was no Genesis Motors brand.

The idea that Genesis is right out of the gate going to be better, and/or make more money, and be more prestigious, than Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti is so far-fetched it borders on megalomania. Besides, I was only talking about their first attempt, and they could have refined their products later with 2nd generation models, in the same manner as they did when they completely revamped the Genesis sedan in 2015 (which is the same as the 2017 G80).

I don't understand why it so hard to grasp (and admit to) the idea that Hyundai (including Genesis) made some bad decisions about the kinds of vehicles to produce for the USA market). Part of that may have been incorrect guesses about oil prices, but they are way behind other manufacturers in the SUV segment of the business.

 

[Mcc]

I don't understand why it so hard to grasp (and admit to) the idea that Hyundai (including Genesis) made some bad decisions about the kinds of vehicles to produce for the USA market). Part of that may have been incorrect guesses about oil prices, but they are way behind other manufacturers in the SUV segment of the business.

Well I guess now we have at least admitted that this is not a Genesis management problem but a Hyundai problem too. They just can’t do anything right at least from 2014 on, maybe even earlier. If they have it doesn’t count. All of Hyundai present top management should be fired, right?

 

[EdP]

The point is that RR is one of the lowest volume manufactures, and probably the slowest moving one on the planet, and if you can't beat them to market then it is a disgrace. Kind of like getting beaten up by a girl on the playground.

But are you trying to beat RR or is it really done by BMW and their experience? That is a more fair comparison.