Number of Genesis sold in USA in 2017 and 2018

[Mark_888]

Luxury car market is totally different now than the 1990s, no need to follow Lexus approach to use full-size sedan as the 1st step.

They should have skipped sedans altogether, and gone with a stable of SUV's, which are the majority of sales at Lexus and most other luxury car makers. The new Bentley Betangya SUV is now there best-selling model.

 

[EdP]

They should have skipped sedans altogether, and gone with a stable of SUV's, which are the majority of sales at Lexus and most other luxury car makers. The new Bentley Betangya SUV is now there best-selling model.

Had they skipped the sedans, I, and many others, would be driving a non-Genesis brand. They probably have lost many sales to Bentley though.

 

[Mark_888]

Had they skipped the sedans, I, and many others, would be driving a non-Genesis brand.

I think that was true for many a few years ago, but sales of the Genesis are plummeting, and will get worse when the dealer networks is shrunk (even if they double the original number of 100).

But I am not suggesting that Hyundai skips the G80, as it could have been sold as a Hyundai, like the 2015-16 models.

 

[Mcc]

They should have skipped sedans altogether, and gone with a stable of SUV's, which are the majority of sales at Lexus and most other luxury car makers. The new Bentley Betangya SUV is now there best-selling model.

Glad you mention this because I wanted to bring up their roadmap but didn’t want to be the one who kept this thread alive unnecessarily. So the roadmap was leaked in 2016. At that time where were all the journalists and posters screaming that this was a major mistake and they should be doing all SUVs or at least posting and ringing bells that they are on the wrong path and should do the SUV first. Where were all these alarms in 2016? Hindsight is always 20/20. Easy today to say that, assuming it’s even true. I know you are going to point to other brand but we have already been over that. Genesis was just starting and formulating its vision as a luxury car and I think they thought an SUV does not send that message.

 

[Mcc]

I think that was true for many a few years ago, but sales of the Genesis are plummeting, and will get worse when the dealer networks is shrunk (even if they double the original number of 100).

But I am not suggesting that Hyundai skips the G80, as it could have been sold as a Hyundai, like the 2015-16 models.

Yes they could but you are confusing your vision with theirs.

 

[Mark_888]

Glad you mention this because I wanted to bring up their roadmap but didn’t want to be the one who kept this thread alive unnecessarily. So the roadmap was leaked in 2016. At that time where were all the journalists and posters screaming that this was a major mistake and they should be doing all SUVs or at least posting and ringing bells that they are on the wrong path and should do the SUV first. Where were all these alarms in 2016? Hindsight is always 20/20. Easy today to say that, assuming it’s even true. I know you are going to point to other brand but we have already been over that. Genesis was just starting and formulating its vision as a luxury car and I think they thought an SUV does not send that message.

There was quite a lot of discussion on this forum a couple of years ago about this. Some believed, even if they had to use the Santa Fe as the basis for a luxury SUV, they should have done that at least temporarily. They could have released the improved RWD version later. That's how Lexus and Acura first got started, by mostly offering upgraded versions of Toyota and Honda.

Personally, I am not convinced that a RWD SUV is all that important, since all of them offer AWD at least as an option. The number of FWD SUV's sold in the US is staggering, even among the luxury automakers such as Lexus and Acura.

As far as the auto press, it is pretty much freelancers these days, who do it as a hobby to get free test drives or at best a free vacation at an auto unveiling and test drive junket. Most of the press these days is actually totally unpaid people posting on YouTube.

In any case, the job of the media is to report, not to tell the automakers what to do. Especially since most people in the automotive press these days are drop-outs and couldn't even afford to buy any of the new cars they review, so they are in no position of telling executives how to run a business.

 

[Mark_888]

Yes they could but you are confusing your vision with theirs.

No, you are confusing their mis-steps with vision.

As I said, I am also, and chiefly, taking them to task for the completely FUBAR'ed rollout of the Genesis dealership network, and the fact that many G80's and G90's are being registered as a Hyundai and not a Genesis, due to specific direction of Genesis Finance. So many people who were being sold on the idea of a premium brand, are now seeing they own a Hyundai, and many dealers have re-negged on the valet service.

 

[YEH]

They should have skipped sedans altogether, and gone with a stable of SUV's, which are the majority of sales at Lexus and most other luxury car makers. The new Bentley Betangya SUV is now there best-selling model.

That's overlooking the fact that the Equus and Genesis sedans were developed for the Korean market first and foremost and that sedans are still the body-style of choice in the Korean luxury market.

South Korea

Total Genesis sales - 5,148 (8th best selling brand)

G70 - 1,103
G80 - 3,132
EQ900 - 913

Stinger - 463
K9 - 1,222 (seems like the new K9 bit into EQ900 sales)

YTD Genesis sales - 22,345

Mercedes - 28,982
BMW - 25,150

So despite currently only having a 3 model lineup, the Genesis brand is not that far off the pace compared to MB and BMW in its home market.

The Korean market is one of the most lucrative for Germans - actually sell more of the E/S Class and 5/7 Series there than anywhere else except for China and the US (2 far larger markets).

Right now, not sure where they would build the GV80 and GV70; with all the new models in the pipeline or recently having started production, can't see Hyundai having the production capacity in Korea to build everything.

There was talk of Hyundai expanding its plant in Alabama to build more CUVs or even certain Genesis models, but if they still plan on doing that, they need to get moving fast.

 

[Mcc]

No, you are confusing their mis-steps with vision.

As I said, I am also, and chiefly, taking them to task for the completely FUBAR'ed rollout of the Genesis dealership network, and the fact that many G80's and G90's are being registered as a Hyundai and not a Genesis, due to specific direction of Genesis Finance. So many people who were being sold on the idea of a premium brand, are now seeing they own a Hyundai, and many dealers have re-negged on the valet service.

As I said I don’t think they need to be excused for the dealership network. Just doing business and negotiation, and nothing tragic about the registration. How many posters out there who own a G80 or G90 don’t believe they own a Genesis? I think you are making a bigger deal than it is, but that is your style. Finally, how many posters who own a G80 or G90 have found that their dealer has reneged on the valet service. Maybe you know that number since you cite this as a significant number of problems. I know I have read about a handful but I don’t pretend to know all the circumstances surrounding this trouble. If you went to the Lexus or BMW forum do you think no one there is complaining about service? Are heads rolling at those brands.

So I think we have covered all your issues except the huge debacle which you brought up where the pdf file did not match the paper manual. Unforgivable, that alone should get senior management fired. Plus I think there is a misspelling on page 3-13

Now since you had so much fun guessing my background I am going to have a little fun and guess why you are so positive that Hyundai and Genesis are a bunch of lazy incompetents. I believe you own Hyundai stock as some part of your 401k or IRA and that stock has been performing poorly lately, as has many auto brands. I believe you think that if top management was replaced (heads are going to roll) Hyundai stock will improve which I personally doubt.

 

[Mark_888]

So I think we have covered all your issues except the huge debacle which you brought up where the pdf file did not match the paper manual. Unforgivable, that alone should get senior management fired. Plus I think there is a misspelling on page 3-13

Now since you had so much fun guessing my background I am going to have a little fun and guess why you are so positive that Hyundai and Genesis are a bunch of lazy incompetents. I believe you own Hyundai stock as some part of your 401k or IRA and that stock has been performing poorly lately, as has many auto brands. I believe you think that if top management was replaced (heads are going to roll) Hyundai stock will improve which I personally doubt.

You are dead wrong about the PDF manual. Go back and read those posts about the owners manual. I did not bring up the subject about the fact that the PDF manual was different than the paper manual. It is perfectly reasonable to me that if an error is found in a manual, that they would correct in the electronic version, and I said so. I personally only look at the PDF versions anyway.

But the fact that there was an error in the first place about the oil change interval of the 3.3T does smack of a lack of thoroughness that we have seen before with Genesis, since it could affect warranty claims. However, once the error is discovered it makes perfect sense to me to fix it in the PDF version. Personally, I would have notified all owners about it. And it was a little strange (or not so strange) that the dealer had no idea what the correct oil change interval actually was.

No, I don't own any Hyundai stock. But back in 2010 or so, I did "try" to buy some Hyundai Motor Stock, but was shocked to find that there was no ADR (American Depository Receipt) listing for it on the NYSE. Typically, major foreign companies that trade on exchanges outside the USA have an ADR listed on the NYSE so USA stockholders can easily buy it. I have owned ADR's of other foreign companies such as Royal Dutch Shell, GlaxoSmithKline, Toyota, etc. Some brokers do allow one to buy stocks on foreign exchanges, but for my broker it cannot be done online, and they charge a hefty trading fee for that service, so I passed on that.

I haven't owned any auto company stock in the last 2-3 years, foreign or domestic.

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[turnne]

As I already said, MB has dropped the V6 from the E class and gone to a 4 cylinder turbo. So not only have they dropped the V8, the dropped the V6 in this case. One can get a V6 on a AMG E class, but that puts the price near an S-class.

MB will continue to make niche cars for the super rich, not matter how expensive they are, and no matter what the gas-guzzler tax is in the USA. But Genesis is not MB AMG or the former Maybach. Genesis is apparently having to discount their G90 to about $60K on lease deals, which is not much higher than E class territory.

I am not sure where you are getting your information
check out mbusa.com

They have not dropped the V8 from the Eclass
What they have done is reconfigured their line up....the V8 in the E class has always sold less than the V6
It also seems that a lot of V8 E class buyers bought the sport package
So they simply rolled higher performance engines with the sport packages. I am not sure any E class buyer, from the past, would be deterred from their options. The only thing they are missing is a V8 powered E class car with a more luxury tuned suspension. I suspect that most of their V8 E class buyers wanted more sport and that is what they were given

I am not sure I would call anything a niche that is selling 4000 cars a month in the United States...that is how many E classes are being rolled out each month. At 300 cars a month one could say the G90 was a niche car

You make an interesting statement about Genesis....who are they trying to compete with

You have seen no doubt that Cadillac is rolling out a 500HP for the CT6 and already has their super cruise system on the street
I think you have to have the power and the technology if you want even a remote chance of competing with the Germans

As for the heavy discounting of the G90...read my posts from two years I ago..I said it was going to be another Equus type of car
They are going to have to free standing dealerships with all the luxury attributes, a few SUV's/crossovers and delve a lot more into technology, customization and performance if they want to grab some of the large volume potential

Warren

 

[turnne]

For a non-European brand, having a full-size sedan model or not is irrevalent to the brand image anyway. Having most G90s with 180+ days in inventory significantly hurts the brand image further. How people will view your brand, if they .

But that is where the majority of the full size luxury sedan sales volumes is...in the European brands

The rumor mill is still going that Cadillac is going to roll out another car...a flagship above its Ct6....with an all new 500HP V8 to compete with the Germans
Mercedes sell 1200 S classes per month in the United States
I suspect that is a very profitable( per unit) car for them

Warren

 

[Mark_888]

I am not sure where you are getting your information
check out mbusa.com

I just looked and here is what they have done for E Class (which preciously had a V6 as standard engine in the USA last year):

• Standard E-Class RWD is now 2.0L 4-cylinder turbo
• E-Class 4-Matic (AWD) is standard with 2.0L 4-cylinder turbo, or has optional 3.0L V6 turbo

The AMG E-Class has two models, with much higher prices:

• 3.0L V6 turbo - Starting at $71,600 (AWD only)
• 4.0L V8 turbo - Starting at $104,400 (AWD only)

So I am saying that the V6 was previously standard on the E-Class, but now a 2.0L 4-cylinder turbo is the standard engine for USA models. The only way to get an engine bigger than the 2.0L 4 cylinder turbo is to get an AWD E-Class.

 

[Windchaser]

I think that was true for many a few years ago, but sales of the Genesis are plummeting, and will get worse when the dealer networks is shrunk (even if they double the original number of 100).

But I am not suggesting that Hyundai skips the G80, as it could have been sold as a Hyundai, like the 2015-16 models.

From your posts I would expect that you don't want anyone to have a sedan. Sedans still represent a large segment of the cars on the road and they would lose sales if they only offered SUV/CUVs. Not everyone wants to drive a SUV. Personally, I think Ford and Chrysler are making a mistake dropping most of their sedans. I certainly don't want to be forced to buy a SUV because it is the only option out there. I doubt I am alone in NOT wanting a SUV/CUV.

 

[turnne]

I just looked and here is what they have done for E Class (which preciously had a V6 as standard engine in the USA last year):

• Standard E-Class RWD is now 2.0L 4-cylinder turbo
• E-Class 4-Matic (AWD) is standard with 2.0L 4-cylinder turbo, or has optional 3.0L V6 turbo

The AMG E-Class has two models, with much higher prices:

• 3.0L V6 turbo - Starting at $71,600 (AWD only)
• 4.0L V8 turbo - Starting at $104,400 (AWD only)

So I am saying that the V6 was previously standard on the E-Class, but now a 2.0L 4-cylinder turbo is the standard engine for USA models. The only way to get an engine bigger than the 2.0L 4 cylinder turbo is to get an AWD E-Class.

doesn't really matter what is standard
It matters what is available and what is selling
If they sell at whatever price then it just the public thinks its worth the money

The BMW 7 series had a standard 6 cylinder for many years....ever noticed how rare they are?
It seems like 90% of them are V8's..in fact I see almost as many 12 cylinders models as I do 6 cylinder ones

You saying Mercedes is a "niche" brand is funny
They sell about 30,000 automobiles a month in the United States alone

I understand that China is their next big front and sales there keep growing highly year over year.

Warren

 

[turnne]

That's overlooking the fact that the Equus and Genesis sedans were developed for the Korean market first and foremost and that sedans are still the body-style of choice in the Korean luxury market.


.

and the Korean market has zero to do with the United States....

Clearly..its another world in the United States and if Hyundai wants Genesis to be a player they are going to have to make some drastic changes in marketing/dealerships as well as models offered


Remember my posts from a couple of years ago speculating on some of these details


No free standing Genesis dealerships in the United States
Sales of the G90 would be like the Equus
Deals/discounting and resale , of the G90, would fall in the same trajectory as the Equus had

Warren

 

[ballistic]

I mean, where are the performance variants that get all of the never-ending attention? AMG, M, V, S series, etc.

why would you expect these things in the first generation? nobody does that. launching all these variants at the same time would have delayed the release of all genesis models for years. high performance cars need a lot more testing then mainstream grocery getters. bmw didn't have an m5 in its first generation. mb didn't have any amg cars in its first generation. be fair and don't expect genesis to go way above and beyond what any other manufacturer has. this is a business for genesis motors and before amg and m variants there are going to be what most people want. suvs.

 

[turnne]

why would you expect these things in the first generation? nobody does that. launching all these variants at the same time would have delayed the release of all genesis models for years. high performance cars need a lot more testing then mainstream grocery getters. bmw didn't have an m5 in its first generation. mb didn't have any amg cars in its first generation. be fair and don't expect genesis to go way above and beyond what any other manufacturer has. this is a business for genesis motors and before amg and m variants there are going to be what most people want. suvs.

didn't Cadillac have their V variants in model year 2 of the CTS and ATS?

Technically we are several years in on the G80...since it is a rebadged Hyundai Genesis
The G90 in in year two in the United states and may be further in Korea...I am not sure

Warren

 

[Mark_888]

doesn't really matter what is standard
It matters what is available and what is selling
If they sell at whatever price then it just the public thinks its worth the money

The BMW 7 series had a standard 6 cylinder for many years....ever noticed how rare they are?
It seems like 90% of them are V8's..in fact I see almost as many 12 cylinders models as I do 6 cylinder ones

You saying Mercedes is a "niche" brand is funny
They sell about 30,000 automobiles a month in the United States alone

I understand that China is their next big front and sales there keep growing highly year over year.

Warren

1. There is no V8 on the E class, unless one gets the AMG version that "starts" at over $100K.

2. Last year, the V6 was standard on the E class, but now it is 4 cylinder turbo.

3. There is no V6 or V8 on any RWD E class (only on AWD models).

4. I strongly suspect that more than 50% of E class units sold in the US for 2018 model year (not calendar year) will be with the 4 cylinder turbo, especially in the south were most are RWD.

5. I rarely see an new BMW sedans anymore. Almost all the new ones I see are SUV's.

6. I didn't mean that MB is a niche brand. I meant that they make some niche cars (AMG, Maybach and its replacement, etc) for the rich. The C and E class are not aimed at rich people.

 

[turnne]

1. There is no V8 on the E class, unless one gets the AMG version that "starts" at over $100K.

2. Last year, the V6 was standard on the E class, but now it is 4 cylinder turbo.

3. There is no V6 or V8 on any RWD E class (only on AWD models).

4. I strongly suspect that more than 50% of E class units sold in the US for 2018 model year (not calendar year) will be with the 4 cylinder turbo, especially in the south were most are RWD.

5. I rarely see an new BMW sedans anymore. Almost all the new ones I see are SUV's.

6. I didn't mean that MB is a niche brand. I meant that they make some niche cars (AMG, Maybach and its replacement, etc) for the rich. The C and E class are not aimed at rich people.

1. The AMG is an E class

2. Again...a 6 clinders have been available in the 7 series for years...looks like 90%( or more) opted for the V8
MB has also done the same 6 cylinder standard with the S class....and buyers bought the V8 overwhelmingly

3. So what..Mercedes like BMW made more AWD automobiles available

4.Most of the E classes I see( including my next door neighbors) are AWD and his is not a 4 cylinder

5. BMW sells more sedans in the United States than SUV's...so it seems you have a less than typical sightings

6. and this is significant for what reason?...do you think the Kia stinger will be a "niche" car
and frankly one could say the last Kia K900 was a niche car based on its sales volume

Warren