Number of Genesis sold in USA in 2017 and 2018

YEH

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The G80 is not even close to the same price as the E class and 5 series.Compare it to the C class and 3/4 series that outsell the G80 many times over and havent had their sales drop off by 25% , recently, like the G80 has
Again, who cares?

The LS 500 is not close to the price of the S Class, but the 2 are still compared.

Even more so, the original LS 400 against the price of the S Class of that era.

And why are you bringing up the 25% sales drop for the G80 when it has already been explained to you that it is materially artificially-induced (more on that later)


I am not sure why you try to compare the G80 to cars that have a lot more features and are significantly more expensive
It's not just me - the industry does it.

As few cars as are being sold with the genesis nameplate that really should not be an issue
And then there is the fact that these "designated" dealers will still not be freestanding
Is your comprehension ability really this poor?

The designated Genesis dealers have about 2 years to build a stand-alone store; until then, they can sell Genesis models at their Hyundai store or at their combined Genesis/Hyundai store (as some have already done).

What?!!
I posted over two years ago that the G90 would not sell well and would be discounted heavily along with low resale
That is exactly what has happened
Yeah, b/c sales have been artificially-reduced due to the halt in shipments over 3 months ago.

And you also posted that G90 sales never exceeded Equus sales which wasn't true.

That time-frame being important as that was about the time the G70 was supposed to launch.

But Genesis had to scrap their 100 or so dealership plan and start from scratch when it came to their dealer network, hence delaying not only the launch of the G70, but the '19MY G80 and G90.

Genesis actually moved up production of the '19MY G80 and G90 to better coincide w/ the launch of the G70.

That's why Canadian buyers have already been able to purchase '19MY (including some here).

But w/ the delay, that supply of '18MY which was supposed to replenished by '19MY a couple of months later, now had to last longer (it's heading into its 4th month and likely will last 5-6 months).

That limited supply of '18MY now had to be stretched out until the whenever the dealership issue gets resolved - which is why Genesis has not been supporting sales w/ advertising or incentives.

This time-line totally matches up.

Your problem is that you just take a superficial/lazy look/analysis of things.

Once Genesis gets its dealership issue resolved (which really won't be until the stand-alone store are up and running), sales of the G80 and G90 should recover from the current levels (by that, I mean it won't be selling 117 like it did last month, but should see sales rise to somewhere btwn 200 and 300, maybe even a bit higher if Genesis does the facelift for the G90 right).

Stand alone Genesis are nothing that is going to happen anytime soon

I will bet all types of money on that
The time-table is for them to be up and running in about 2 yrs.

No need to bet $$.

Why don't we bet that there will be stand-alone Genesis dealerships by then - w/ the loser agreeing to not post on here for 3 months?


Actuals are my strong point

Business sense 101 says there is no way they can build a free standing luxury dealership on slow selling highly discounted vehicles
Really?

You could have surprised me w/ your continued erroneous numerical claims.

Such as...

1. Plenty of '17 G90s left.
2. The G90 never outsold the Equus.

And as already pointed out, by the time the Genesis dealerships are all built, the Genesis lineup will include not only the G70, but the GV80, the GV70, a new G80 and a facelifted G90.

They may even be able to get the GT70 coupe in on that timeframe, but it'll be close.

And not long after that, the GV60 will join the lineup.

Doesn't say much about your biz sense - when you continue to think that Genesis will only be selling the G80 and G90 (and in their current form).


The LS500 is outselling the outgoing LS460

But the LS hasnt sold well in more than 10 years

In the last full year the LS only sold about 3500 cars
The LS500 is already there
OMG!

Again, the LS 500 is not even anywhere close to where the LS 460 sold in its first year, much less its 2nd, 3rd or 4th year of sale (you were the one comparing year to year in life-cycle).

The LS 500 is not even on track to hit what the 460 did in its 5th, 6th, 7th year of sale.

The 500 is on track to do around what 460 did in its 8th year of sale.

Yeah, sales of the 460 fell even further as it continued to age; do you really expect sales to not decline?

Meanwhile, the 500 has already seen its 4th straight month of declining sales (plenty of supply) and has only hit its modest month sales target once.

Last month, sales were barely above 700 - 2 years from now, can see sales somewhere btwn 500-600.

In it's last year of sale, the Equus sold 1,361.

The G90 did 1,582 in sales in its first 4 full months of sale (see how that works?).


Which is why I dont understand why you are using LS460 figures from 10 years ago as some litmus test
B/c that's comparing apples to apples!

You can't compare 1st year sales of a new model to the last year of an old one.

That's just idiotic.

I don't know why you keep going on about Cadillac (which I know way more about than you) and why you keep bringing up the G90's sales last month when again, sales have been artificially suppressed.

Important here to also keep in mind that the Cadillac dealer needs to sell Cadillacs
Most dont have a "corner" car in their showroom that has to have overhead covered by the other cars they are selling
Actually, out of the 925 Cadillac franchises, only 200 are standalone flagship stores.

700 or so are smaller boutique shops usually tied to a Buick/GMC or a Chevy dealership.

400 of those dealerships sell fewer than 50 Cadillacs a year (basically a side biz attached to the other brands).

Got anything else about Cadillac you want to tell me?

Don't know why this matters as Genesis will be getting standalone stores.
 
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turnne

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OMG!

Everyone knows that the A6 doesn't sell as well as its German compatriots.

But at the same time, it was outselling pretty much everything else (aside from the Genesis/G80).

2014 - 23,941
2015 - 22,850
2016 - 18,686

Such a drastic sales decline for the A6 is peculiar, even for a model change-over.



.
oh..I forgot to ask why you always seem to pick out the same slower selling cars time and time again and completely not address those that are selling well in the same showroom?

Also you never answered my question as to what you define as slow selling cars...??

Both the G80 and G90 sales have both dropped about 25% per month,consecutively, in May, June and July.
As you know that is along with the very large discounts/incentives being used to move them currently...which has been the case all year based on what people have posted about their transaction prices


Why dont you mention sales of the 3500 a month of the A4 and 2500 a month for the A5?

These are similarly priced to the G80 and they are not SUV's

Your wacky comment about not caring about the fact that the CT6 has a better feature set than the G90 is interesting

Buyers in the United States...as you hopefully can tell....like both heavy features and technology in their luxury cars

They also seem to like a true luxury dealership and all that it contains

Warren
 

turnne

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Again, who cares?

The LS 500 is not close to the price of the S Class, but the 2 are still compared.

Even more so, the original LS 400 against the price of the S Class of that era.

And why are you bringing up the 25% sales drop for the G80 when it has already been explained to you that it is materially artificially-induced (more on that later)
lol....Buyers care in the United States

The LS was traditionally been E class priced..in fact when it was introduced in the United States
As it has gone up scale the sales have gone down hill
I dont the average buyer in the United States feels they are getting equivalent car with any of the large Germans and a Lexus

or better stated...they seem to have been buying a lot more S classes, at a higher price, in the United States in the last 10 years
Again Lexus sells a lot of ES sedans and SUV's/CUV's. That is what is keeping the lights on



It's not just me - the industry does it.
The average buyer is clearly not doing it

Or..if they are they are consistently buying the more expensive model

According to some article I saw this past week..Lexus is trying to say their new ES is alternative to cars like the BMW 5 series and even offering an F sport package

Hmmm...I dont think those cars will be cross shopped since I still say the average luxury car buyer is using feature set as a litmus test of comparision


Is your comprehension ability really this poor?

The designated Genesis dealers have about 2 years to build a stand-alone store; until then, they can sell Genesis models at their Hyundai store or at their combined Genesis/Hyundai store (as some have already done).
Your business 101 must be poor

No independent business man can afford to build a luxury car dealership with two heavily discounted and slow selling cars

You do know what a the term "floorplan costs" means to an auto dealer correct?





Yeah, b/c sales have been artificially-reduced due to the halt in shipments over 3 months ago.

And you also posted that G90 sales never exceeded Equus sales which wasn't true.

That time-frame being important as that was about the time the G70 was supposed to launch.

But Genesis had to scrap their 100 or so dealership plan and start from scratch when it came to their dealer network, hence delaying not only the launch of the G70, but the '19MY G80 and G90.

Genesis actually moved up production of the '19MY G80 and G90 to better coincide w/ the launch of the G70.

That's why Canadian buyers have already been able to purchase '19MY (including some here).

But w/ the delay, that supply of '18MY which was supposed to replenished by '19MY a couple of months later, now had to last longer (it's heading into its 4th month and likely will last 5-6 months).

That limited supply of '18MY now had to be stretched out until the whenever the dealership issue gets resolved - which is why Genesis has not been supporting sales w/ advertising or incentives.

This time-line totally matches up.
LOL......IF all of this is true
It really makes me question their business sense
There are no changes to the 19 models of the G80 and G90

So they "slowed" shipments of the same car with no added features...and will start shipping 19's with no changes

Ok...I will make a prediction that sales drop even further for the 2019 models than

Traditionally this scenario has also meant higher discounting at the dealership level as well in the United States
Your problem is that you just take a superficial/lazy look/analysis of things.
Really?

Because I am not cherry picking one car at the brand dealership that hasnt done well but pick others that are selling 1000s a month

You keep mentioning the A6..but never mention the A4 and A5....which are very in line with the Genesis sedans price wise
Audi is selling thousands of those per month

You mention the Lexus and use figures from 10 years ago and forget to mention how slow selling that car has been the last 4 years?
Lexus sold 4500 ES350s last month with an aged design
Its close in transaction price to the G90 and should roll up even higher when the new bodystyle is introduced

But according to you, sedans sales are absolutely tanking the United States and you say the replacements should not sell better than the outgoing model
Once Genesis gets its dealership issue resolved (which really won't be until the stand-alone store are up and running), sales of the G80 and G90 should recover from the current levels (by that, I mean it won't be selling 117 like it did last month, but should see sales rise to somewhere btwn 200 and 300, maybe even a bit higher if Genesis does the facelift for the G90 right).



The time-table is for them to be up and running in about 2 yrs.

No need to bet $$.

Why don't we bet that there will be stand-alone Genesis dealerships by then - w/ the loser agreeing to not post on here for 3 months?
Why dont we bet that sales of both the Genesis G80 and G90 continue to fall even as the 2019's hit the showroom floor?

Why dont we even add..as the 2019 G90 rolls into the showroom floor...that its sales fall to less than 100 cars per month in the US?




Really?

You could have surprised me w/ your continued erroneous numerical claims.

Such as...

1. Plenty of '17 G90s left.
2. The G90 never outsold the Equus.

And as already pointed out, by the time the Genesis dealerships are all built, the Genesis lineup will include not only the G70, but the GV80, the GV70, a new G80 and a facelifted G90.

They may even be able to get the GT70 coupe in on that timeframe, but it'll be close.

And not long after that, the GV60 will join the lineup.

Doesn't say much about your biz sense - when you continue to think that Genesis will only be selling the G80 and G90 (and in their current form).
There are several 2017 G90's left...considering the sales volume and the Equus is most certainly outselling the G90 at the same point in its life cycle

And then there are your consistent message that the sedan industry in the United States is tanking

Interesting...that the many thousand and thousands and thousands a month of luxury sedans sold in the United States and several are actually up
This is a feat when you already have a marker of selling several thousand a month in the past

We will see as the others models unfold
As I said before...an independent business man cant run a luxury car dealership on cars that are not selling well that are highly discounted
That is the current state of affairs with both the G80 and G90




OMG!

Again, the LS 500 is not even anywhere close to where the LS 460 sold in its first year, much less its 2nd, 3rd or 4th year of sale (you were the one comparing year to year in life-cycle).

The LS 500 is not even on track to hit what the 460 did in its 5th, 6th, 7th year of sale.

The 500 is on track to do around what 460 did in its 8th year of sale.

Yeah, sales of the 460 fell even further as it continued to age; do you really expect sales to not decline?

Meanwhile, the 500 has already seen its 4th straight month of declining sales (plenty of supply) and has only hit its modest month sales target once.

Last month, sales were barely above 700 - 2 years from now, can see sales somewhere btwn 500-600.

In it's last year of sale, the Equus sold 1,361.

The G90 did 1,582 in sales in its first 4 full months of sale (see how that works?).[/QUOTE]

Again...the Lexus LS has not sold well, comparatively, in many years
Not sure why you keep bringing that up..

Meanwhile buyers in the United States have bought other luxury cars at similar price points( and higher) to tune of thousands of units per month
Ditto with the GS

Lexus does well with the ES level car though...moving 4500 units in July 2018 and highly increased month over month

Track the ES over the same trajectory and see how much better Lexus is doing with that car than the LS sedan

The Equus sold more cars in 2012 than the G90 is selling today in 2018. I further say that when we look at the end of the year with a 2019 intro the Equus will still have a calendar year win

Do you understand math and numbers?



B/c that's comparing apples to apples!

You can't compare 1st year sales of a new model to the last year of an old one.

That's just idiotic.

I don't know why you keep going on about Cadillac (which I know way more about than you) and why you keep bringing up the G90's sales last month when again, sales have been artificially suppressed.
Whats idiotic is you keep bringing up the same slow selling cars...some very long on tooth like the A6
But you never mention that the same brand has another model that is selling at thousands of units a month
You keep mentioning the A6,,,but never mention the A4 or A5
You keep mentioning the Lexus LS but never tough on the many thousands a month Lexus sells of the ES

Some cars just havent done well...but they have other sedans in the showroom that are doing well without having to be discounted 22-25% to sell as with the G80 and G90

Hmmm....so they are artificially suppressing supply on the G90
A slow selling and highly discounted car

I guess from a business standpoint that is to stop the bleeding
However since the 2019 model has no changes...I suspect their will no impact on sales

When the 2019 G90 rolls in showrooms and has no increase in sales...what excuse will you use?


Actually, out of the 925 Cadillac franchises, only 200 are standalone flagship stores.

700 or so are smaller boutique shops usually tied to a Buick/GMC or a Chevy dealership.

400 of those dealerships sell fewer than 50 Cadillacs a year (basically a side biz attached to the other brands).

Got anything else about Cadillac you want to tell me?

Don't know why this matters as Genesis will be getting standalone stores.
Every larger city and luxury car market metro area in the United States has several large free standing Cadillac dealerships. In the same high cost areas as Lexus, Mercedes and BMW. Since you are a luxury "expert" clearly you already knew this

A far as cadillac goes..the CT6 has a better feature set and outsells the G90 at a similar price

I think you said who cares about a better feature set?

Buyers perhaps care, judging by the sales results

Warren
 

jsmit86

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More info on the reason for lack of sales.... (lack of inventory)
Warren's statement:
"There is tons of inventory of both 2018 G80 and G90's available. "
is flat out wrong.
No shipments for the last 5 months... yeah... that will leave a mark.

To avoid burdening the slimmed down Genesis dealership network with a glut of 2018 model year vehicles, the 2018 model year was discontinued early, in February, causing the above sales dip as supply dwindled.
Genesis is gradually sending out separation offers to Hyundai dealers, wherein they may revert to a Hyundai-only dealer after exhausting their Genesis supply or sign an agreement to become a Genesis outlet. Signing means making a commitment to improved training and service befitting a premium automaker, as well as separating the Hyundai and Genesis brands within showrooms to emphasize their differences. Those that elect to become Genesis franchisees will be allocated only 2019 model year (and later) vehicles.

It will take some time for Genesis availability to become nationwide again; Genesis as its own legal entity must attain distributor licenses state-by-state. After Genesis receives its license from a state, it will work out agreements with Hyundai dealers that have raised their hands to become Genesis dealers. Finally, dealers themselves will have to attain the necessary state business license, and can then reboot Genesis sales. Gradually, the new automaker will reestablish itself across the United States.


More info:
Hyundai's July 2018 U.S. Sales: Genesis Sales Slow in Transition

This also explains the lack of discounting as compared to the last few years. I know this for a fact because I was working on a purchase. Low supply = lower price cuts and incentives = less sales.
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turnne

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More info on the reason for lack of sales.... (lack of inventory)
Warren's statement:
"There is tons of inventory of both 2018 G80 and G90's available. "
is flat out wrong.
No shipments for the last 5 months... yeah... that will leave a mark.

To avoid burdening the slimmed down Genesis dealership network with a glut of 2018 model year vehicles, the 2018 model year was discontinued early, in February, causing the above sales dip as supply dwindled.
Genesis is gradually sending out separation offers to Hyundai dealers, wherein they may revert to a Hyundai-only dealer after exhausting their Genesis supply or sign an agreement to become a Genesis outlet. Signing means making a commitment to improved training and service befitting a premium automaker, as well as separating the Hyundai and Genesis brands within showrooms to emphasize their differences. Those that elect to become Genesis franchisees will be allocated only 2019 model year (and later) vehicles.

It will take some time for Genesis availability to become nationwide again; Genesis as its own legal entity must attain distributor licenses state-by-state. After Genesis receives its license from a state, it will work out agreements with Hyundai dealers that have raised their hands to become Genesis dealers. Finally, dealers themselves will have to attain the necessary state business license, and can then reboot Genesis sales. Gradually, the new automaker will reestablish itself across the United States.


More info:
Hyundai's July 2018 U.S. Sales: Genesis Sales Slow in Transition

This also explains the lack of discounting as compared to the last few years. I know this for a fact because I was working on a purchase. Low supply = lower price cuts and incentives = less sales.

Like I said
They took the necessary steps to stop the bleeding....
They will have leases coming back in about a year of the first G90's

A lot of lease inventory coming back as well as gluts of new cars sitting....it means serious discounting and a punch to resale values even more
The only thing that could be worse is if they start adding them to rental fleets just to move cars

If you have been in Lexus showroom you will know that you can still get a better discount on a Genesis sedan than a Lexus

But maybe all of this is a moot point.. since the 2019 G80 and G90 models have zero changes and I cant really see any upcoming difference in the sales trajectory over where they are today

As I said before
I predict even when they roll out the 2019 G90's that they fall below the 100 cars per sales month mark in 2018

Trust me....the good deals will be available on the G80 and G90 cars...:)

Warren
 

jsmit86

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Warren said:
"But maybe all of this is a moot point.. since the 2019 G80 and G90 models have zero changes and I cant really see any upcoming difference in the sales trajectory over where they are today "

So.... cutting off all shipments had no impact on sales? Starting shipping again won't have any change to the sales trajectory? That's just silly. Oh.. and actually, I can get a deeper discount on Lexus ES and GS in my area than a G80.
I don't assert that means much for the long term, but you are apparently oblivious to the concept of supply vs. demand.

You also seem to take glee in bashing the value of Genesis. I'll leave it at that.
 

turnne

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An
Warren said:
"But maybe all of this is a moot point.. since the 2019 G80 and G90 models have zero changes and I cant really see any upcoming difference in the sales trajectory over where they are today "

So.... cutting off all shipments had no impact on sales? Starting shipping again won't have any change to the sales trajectory? That's just silly. Oh.. and actually, I can get a deeper discount on Lexus ES and GS in my area than a G80.
I don't assert that means much for the long term, but you are apparently oblivious to the concept of supply vs. demand.

You also seem to take glee in bashing the value of Genesis. I'll leave it at that.
They were smart to cut shipments
Why would they want a glut of inventory when the sales have been falling consistently

Do you understand supply and demand?

A seriously short supply car sells at sticker price.....

And again...long term when the unchanged 2019's hit the showroom floor it will be no different

To alleviate your false assumptions...I am not bashing anything
I have explained this a few times now

I see this as a good thing since the prices of the cars will come down even further

Warren
 

jsmit86

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Do I understand supply and demand? Yes... better than some here apparantly! ;-)
( At least I understood that 2018s are actually in short supply, and discounts are scarce; vs. some who think there are tons of cars with deep discounts available, until confronted with the facts)

I predict that when supply improves, the sales will also improve.
Of course the prices should come down somewhat from current levels with that improved availability.
I don't see discounts on the G80s returning to the levels of the '15 and '16 Hyundai Genesis.
G90 is such a low volume play that stock leftovers will probably see strong discounting.
I would not bet that will continue at the same levels for 2019.

G70 should do very well as long as the distribution debacle is fixed.
I don't know how many 3 series and C-Class sales it captures, but Infiniti should be concerned.
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YEH

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They were smart to cut shipments
Why would they want a glut of inventory when the sales have been falling consistently
Even for you, you're really grasping at straws.

I'm sure Genesis took into account a decline in sales due to the continued move to CUVs and SUVs and as models age, but such a drastic decline for the past 2 months (the real decline was in June and July) is an anomaly and something they wouldn't have been able to anticipate at the time they halted shipments.

But let's just say that your story holds true.

In that case, Audi and MB must have also cut inventory in anticipation of drastically falling sales.

G90: -61.6%

A8: -87.4% (even a more drastic decline %-wise than the G90)

S Class: -57.1% (the S Class was down a whopping 840, only selling 630 last month)


Same deal for the midsize segment.

G80: -62.8%

A6: -87.1%

E Class/CLS: -41.9% (lost a whopping 1,624 in sales)


But there's a more rationale reason behind the declines for Audi and MB.

The A6 and A8 will soon be replace by their respective next gen models (note: the A6 was only down 5.9% in the EU; the C and E Class were both down double-digits).

MB sales were affected by “temporary dealer inventory shortfall” (related to a changeover in 2019 models) and an unrelated “mainframe outage” which impacted dealership operations.

Just like for Audi and MB, Genesis' drastic decline in sales (for the past 2 months) has every thing to do w/ an inventory shortfall.



Do you understand supply and demand?

A seriously short supply car sells at sticker price.....

And again...long term when the unchanged 2019's hit the showroom floor it will be no different
Evidently, you don't.

Again, let's assume your concoction is true.

That Genesis cut shipments b/c they anticipated such a drastic, anomalous decline in sales.

Well, the thing is they didn't simply cut shipments, they halted them altogether.

When sales slow, it's standard business practice for an automakers to reduce shipments (in order for there not to be a glut of supply), but that's entirely different from halting them entirely.

If Genesis had cut shipments, they would still be sending over G80's and G90's - just in smaller nos., but that's not what happened, they stopped shipments altogether over 3 months ago (which is not anything close to the norm).

And even if Genesis wanted to send more G80's and G90's over, they couldn't, b/c they didn't merely stop shipping them over, they (as previously stated) stopped building them ('18MY) back in February.

This all, of course, totally coincides w/ the initial plan to launch the G70 sometime around late April/May, along w/ the '19MY G80's and G90's.

But the launch of the G70 and other '19 models were delayed due to the hang-up over the dealership issue, which left Genesis having to stretch-out the supply of the '18MY they had on hand.

Furthermore, if what you state is true (not that there has been much truth in anything you have posted), would the same thing apply to Genesis in Canada?

Compared to last July - G80 sales are basically flat and G90 sales actually increased

11 G90's were sold in Canada last month which isn't that far off the pace of the brand new LS 500 (15).

Well, why haven't Canadian sales of the G80 and G90 seen the same drastic downturn as in the US?

The answer is pretty simply - unlike for here, there is no delay in sales of the '19 models and hence, Canada has been getting shipments of the G80 and G90, as well as the G70.

And even for here, the sales downturn was only really bad for June and July.

April and May sales were still (comparatively) decent - but as the launch of the G70 and other '19 models never materialized in April/May (and no more '18MY G80's and G90's forthcoming), and thus, as stated, Genesis had to try to stretch out what supply they did have on hand.

Furthemore, you really think Genesis would be struggling to sell 500 G80's a month (w/o some reason behind it other than sales just suck) when Kia is selling 1,500-1,700 Stingers a month?


I have explained this a few times now
Yeah, a superficial, piss-poor explanation.

Just b/c you keep repeating the same thing over and over - doesn't make it any more true (or less superficial).

And there's absolutely no point in rehashing the rebuttals again (when you, evidently, are incapable of being cognizant when your arguments clash).

So how 'bout that bet?

Care to literally put up and shut up?
 
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