Number of Genesis sold in USA in 2017 and 2018

[YEH]

I am not even going to bother to unpack all that

If you the think the same market/buyer is looking at a G90 and an S class you are kidding yourself

Warren

Maybe they're in the minority, but some do (you're previous claims that no one would - had long been debunked).

Just like there have been prospective buyers who opted for a Stinger GT2 over not just a run of a mill 3 Series or C Class, but an M3 or AMG C63.

Not everyone cares that much about the brand of car they drive (or rather, what others may think of them); know a # of people who can afford a Bentley or Rolls, but don't even drive a luxury brand.

No..actually my point was
What they sell in Korea has absolutely nothing to do with what is desired and actually purchased in the United States...nothing
and again...we have a big disparity on what cars are in the same class

Geeze.

Which, again, was not the point of the discussion.

Those posting on this topic are well aware that the preferences for types of vehicles in Korea and the US differ, including for the lux market (if they didn't know before, I've stated it enough times).

The argument made was that Hyundai should have started w/ CUVs and not sedans, but while that would have been good for the US market, it wouldn't have been good for the Korean market where Genesis is the 8th best selling brand - and despite just a 3 sedan lineup (as stated a # of times), has sales that are not far behind MB and BMW.

Last month - over 3k sales of the G80 and about 1k for the G90 and G80, respectively, for a total of 5,148.

In Japan (which has 3x the pop. of Korea), the entire Lexus lineup sold 4,632.

The best selling Lexus model was the NX (including the hybrid) - 1,643.

The next best selling model was the CT200H - 586.

No other Lexus model was in the top 50 best sellers (the CT was 49th).

So, models like the IS, GS and LS aren't big sellers in Japan.

Which is why Toyota takes its sweet time in updating its sedan lineup (along w/ mulling over whether or not to cancel the GS - once again), as the US is by far the best market for Lexus sedans and even here it's been shrinking.

In contrast, Hyundai sells a good amount of its Genesis sedans in Korea (which is why it started w/ sedans) and why Hyundai has moved more quickly when it comes to upgrading (adding new powertrains, etc.).

The G90/EQ900 and K900 combined did over 2,100 in sales in Korea last month - which is why such an endeavor is worth it for them.

So not only did the G80 more than double the sales of the best selling Lexus model in Japan (the NX), the combined sales of the G90 and K900 easily exceeded that of the NX.

Look how much they invested in their dealerships and experience factor to compete in the luxury market....
How many cars did they sell per year when they just had two vehicles to offer?...
Do you think you can walk in Lexus dealer ship and buy a LS500 for the huge discounts they are offering on G90's?
VERY doubtfull

1. It was a different time (the cost of launching a new auto brand and dealer network has gone up considerably - which is what Hyundai is doing w/ Genesis).

2. It was thought that Toyota had to subsidize the Lexus dealerships for some time.

3. And Toyota pushed for sales volume by (a) VALUE-pricing the LS 400 (a screamer of a deal at $35k) and basically just bringing over a JDM Camry variant as the 2nd Lexus model for the 1G ES.

4. Maybe not on the LS 500 (at least not yet - let's see how it does next year); but people have gotten great deals on the LS 460 over the past few years, even better on the LS 600H (talking a 5 -figure discount from MSRP).

 

[turnne]

Maybe they're in the minority, but some do (you're previous claims that no one would - had long been debunked).

Just like there have been prospective buyers who opted for a Stinger GT2 over not just a run of a mill 3 Series or C Class, but an M3 or AMG C63.

Not everyone cares that much about the brand of car they drive (or rather, what others may think of them); know a # of people who can afford a Bentley or Rolls, but don't even drive a luxury brand.




Geeze.

Which, again, was not the point of the discussion.

Those posting on this topic are well aware that the preferences for types of vehicles in Korea and the US differ, including for the lux market (if they didn't know before, I've stated it enough times).

The argument made was that Hyundai should have started w/ CUVs and not sedans, but while that would have been good for the US market, it wouldn't have been good for the Korean market where Genesis is the 8th best selling brand - and despite just a 3 sedan lineup (as stated a # of times), has sales that are not far behind MB and BMW.

Last month - over 3k sales of the G80 and about 1k for the G90 and G80, respectively, for a total of 5,148.

In Japan (which has 3x the pop. of Korea), the entire Lexus lineup sold 4,632.

The best selling Lexus model was the NX (including the hybrid) - 1,643.

The next best selling model was the CT200H - 586.

No other Lexus model was in the top 50 best sellers (the CT was 49th).

So, models like the IS, GS and LS aren't big sellers in Japan.

Which is why Toyota takes its sweet time in updating its sedan lineup (along w/ mulling over whether or not to cancel the GS - once again), as the US is by far the best market for Lexus sedans and even here it's been shrinking.

In contrast, Hyundai sells a good amount of its Genesis sedans in Korea (which is why it started w/ sedans) and why Hyundai has moved more quickly when it comes to upgrading (adding new powertrains, etc.).

The G90/EQ900 and K900 combined did over 2,100 in sales in Korea last month - which is why such an endeavor is worth it for them.

So not only did the G80 more than double the sales of the best selling Lexus model in Japan (the NX), the combined sales of the G90 and K900 easily exceeded that of the NX.




1. It was a different time (the cost of launching a new auto brand and dealer network has gone up considerably - which is what Hyundai is doing w/ Genesis).

2. It was thought that Toyota had to subsidize the Lexus dealerships for some time.

3. And Toyota pushed for sales volume by (a) VALUE-pricing the LS 400 (a screamer of a deal at $35k) and basically just bringing over a JDM Camry variant as the 2nd Lexus model for the 1G ES.

4. Maybe not on the LS 500 (at least not yet - let's see how it does next year); but people have gotten great deals on the LS 460 over the past few years, even better on the LS 600H (talking a 5 -figure discount from MSRP).

wow....again
Not going to try to unpack all that

However..lets look at the relevant and accurate stats

Year over year Genesis G80 sales are down 20% and G90 down 22%..to date through May 1st of 2018
Both models both trending downward with each of selling less each month than the prior month in 2018
Both models are being offered at significant and verified discounts...presumably just to move cars?

The G80 sold better when it named a Hyundai Genesis

There are new 2017 G90's still sitting on dealers lots
I saw an advertisement yesterday for a new 2017 G90 AWD for $20K off sticker



Can you imagine the floorplan cost to the Hyundai dealer with a car that expensive sitting on their lot for a year or more?
As an independent business people they would have to think how many Elantras they could have sold, at a profit, in the same period for the same floorplan costs

Maybe Hyundai is giving them some type of back end reimbursement for having costly inventory sitting there?

Interesting..of my speculation I had a couple of years ago
Funny how its panned out almost to the letter

I will adjust one thing I said with the fact that a 3 year old G90 lease return with 30K miles would be worth $35K

Today..I say lower
In fact we might see $28-30K on the 6 cylinders models and $31-32K on the V8 AWD models

I see those 2015 Kia K900's that were $67K sticker going for $22K now with very low mileage

Warren

 

[YEH]

wow....again
Not going to try to unpack all that

However..lets look at the relevant and accurate stats

Year over year Genesis G80 sales are down 20% and G90 down 22%..to date through May 1st of 2018
Both models both trending downward with each of selling less each month than the prior month in 2018
Both models are being offered at significant and verified discounts...presumably just to move cars?

There's no need to unpack anything.

You're repeatedly making an argument over nothing.

No one is disputing that sedan sales are declining or that the preferences for the US auto market is different from that of Korea's.

Regardless of that, it was a natural thing for Hyundai to have started w/ sedans, considering that their stronghold needed to be their domestic market (where lux sedans still rule).

The 1G Equus was launched in 1999 and Hyundai needed a replacement (which arrived in 2009).

Hyundai developed the 2G Equus w/o any intention of selling it in the US; but after the early sales success of the Genesis sedan, they brought over a # of Equus as display models to garner interest and then proceeded w/ homologation for the US market when it was deemed there was sufficient interest.

And its successor, the EQ900, was such a sales success in Korea that Hyundai had to DOUBLE production - and even with that, there was a 10 month wait (as there were 13k orders on the books about a month and half after the EQ900 launched).

So, it doesn't matter what the situation is for sedan sales in the US (or that the markets differ in preferences), it was a no-brainer for Hyundai to have started w/ lux sedans (hence, the argument that Hyundai should have started w/ lux CUVs being superfluous).

Of course Genesis needs CUVs to grow sales for the US market, but that doesn't change the fact that sedans were what they needed to start with.

 

[Mark_888]

Hyundai developed the 2G Equus w/o any intention of selling it in the US; but after the early sales success of the Genesis sedan, they brought over a # of Equus as display models to garner interest and then proceeded w/ homologation for the US market when it was deemed there was sufficient interest..

That's why there were no Hyundai logos or emblems anywhere on the 2011 Equus imported in to the USA in 2010.

 

[turnne]

There's no need to unpack anything.

You're repeatedly making an argument over nothing.

No one is disputing that sedan sales are declining or that the preferences for the US auto market is different from that of Korea's.

Regardless of that, it was a natural thing for Hyundai to have started w/ sedans, considering that their stronghold needed to be their domestic market (where lux sedans still rule).

The 1G Equus was launched in 1999 and Hyundai needed a replacement (which arrived in 2009).

Hyundai developed the 2G Equus w/o any intention of selling it in the US; but after the early sales success of the Genesis sedan, they brought over a # of Equus as display models to garner interest and then proceeded w/ homologation for the US market when it was deemed there was sufficient interest.

And its successor, the EQ900, was such a sales success in Korea that Hyundai had to DOUBLE production - and even with that, there was a 10 month wait (as there were 13k orders on the books about a month and half after the EQ900 launched).

So, it doesn't matter what the situation is for sedan sales in the US (or that the markets differ in preferences), it was a no-brainer for Hyundai to have started w/ lux sedans (hence, the argument that Hyundai should have started w/ lux CUVs being superfluous).

Of course Genesis needs CUVs to grow sales for the US market, but that doesn't change the fact that sedans were what they needed to start with.

Again...the Korean market has absolutely no relevance on what is being purchased in the United States
If Hyundai wants to play in the United States luxury market they will need product, atmosphere and content that are desired by buyers in the United States... not the other way around

So this downward trend of 20-22% in sales has to be a concern when its their entire Genesis United States portfolio

There are other luxury sedans in the same price range of the G80 and G90 that have increasing sales year over year
As I said before and I am sure you know...there are 2017 G90's , brand new, sitting on dealers lots.
Try to find other sedans in the same price range, like a 2017 E class or 5 series, sitting on a dealers lots

I hope Hyundai is subsidizing these independent dealers for having Genesis inventory sit there are more than a year?
The independent business owners/dealers have to be thinking many more Hyundai Elantras, Sonatas etc they could have sold for the same floor plan costs at the 2017 G90 that is still sitting there..a year later

The luxury sedan market is smaller than it used to be. However there are thousands of luxury sedans over $50K sold in the United States each month. Mercedes alone is selling 5500 cars a month in that category.
Hyundai is selling 300 G90's a month and trending downward....and that is with large discounting
The Kia K900 only sold over 50 units a month once since January 2017

Do you think they will break 100 a month with the new body style?
By the way..I see yet another VERY good used car value coming with that new body style as well

Lexus is hitting 1000 a month with the new LS
The Lexus ES is selling about 3500 a month and its close enough to the G80 price point to be sedan competition for the same budget buyer

So..there is plenty of available luxury sedan sales volume/willing buyers in the United States

Warren

 

[turnne]

That's why there were no Hyundai logos or emblems anywhere on the 2011 Equus imported in to the USA in 2010.

I would think that sitting in the dealership next to Elantras etc along with pretty much the same dealership experience had a bigger impact than a logo

My personal Equus buying experience was horrific

Warren

 

[Mark_888]

Again...the Korean market has absolutely no relevance on what is being purchased in the United States
If Hyundai wants to play in the United States luxury market they will need product, atmosphere and content that are desired by buyers in the United States... not the other way around

That is correct. Lexus models in the US were sold in Japan under the Toyota brand until about 2005 (Lexus brand in the US started in 1989). Most car sales in Japan and Korea actually take place in boutique shops in shopping malls or small stores as is being done in Canada right now to some degree. Service was done elsewhere.

 

[turnne]

That is correct. Lexus models in the US were sold in Japan under the Toyota brand until about 2005 (Lexus brand in the US started in 1989). Most car sales in Japan and Korea actually take place in boutique shops in shopping malls or small stores as is being done in Canada right now to some degree. Service was done elsewhere.

Ok...if that information is accurate..

We know the United States is a completely different animal where that dealership experience , for a luxury brand, makes a huge difference

Hence the reason why Lexus and Infiniti probably launched the way that they did

However...there is some very good news here
The cars are discounted heavily and make for some very good used car bargains 2-3 years old

I bring up the Kia K900 again...$67K new and $22K now ..3 years later and still with plenty of new car warranty left on it

Warren

 

[Mcc]

However...there is some very good news here
The cars are discounted heavily and make for some very good used car bargains 2-3 years old

I bring up the Kia K900 again...$67K new and $22K now ..3 years later and still with plenty of new car warranty left on it

I think that if you are looking for a used car for whatever reasons it may be good news. It’s just a gamble that assumes the new G90s will follow the same curve as the older Hyundai’s. Even if so recognize you are still getting a car with technology and safety features that are three years out of date, your decision. There may be a few great steals on current models but just good buys I believe are more the norm and that is what most people are posting. It’s are good buy now, wait and you take your chances and not just on price.

 

[turnne]

I think that if you are looking for a used car for whatever reasons it may be good news. It’s just a gamble that assumes the new G90s will follow the same curve as the older Hyundai’s. Even if so recognize you are still getting a car with technology and safety features that are three years out of date, your decision. There may be a few great steals on current models but just good buys I believe are more the norm and that is what most people are posting. It’s are good buy now, wait and you take your chances and not just on price.

The market value curve we are seeing now on year old G90 models is the same as the Equus...and the G90s are selling at about the same rate the Equus was

Which makes me wonder if Hyundai should not have saved what ever money the Genesis brand concept cost them and continued to sell ( and brand ) them as a Hyundai

As far as out of date
My friends 2015 Mercedes S class has features that are not even available on a 2018 G90....so buying a new 2018 G90 does not mean that you are cutting edge on feature set

Warren

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[YEH]

That's why there were no Hyundai logos or emblems anywhere on the 2011 Equus imported in to the USA in 2010.

Whether it did or did not is immaterial.

Doesn't change the fact that the Equus was known as the Hyundai Equus in Korea, just as (as stated prior) the Mustang or the Thunderbird didn't have the Blue Oval and yet most everyone knew that they were Fords.

And if that indeed were true (that the US-spec Equus had no Hyundai badges anywhere), that actually further proves my point as it was also sold as the Hyundai Equus here.

C&D shows a Hyundai badge on the engine cover for the '11MY Equus.

2011 Hyundai Equus Pictures | Photo Gallery | Car and Driver

 

[Mark_888]

And if that indeed were true (that the US-spec Equus had no Hyundai badges anywhere), that actually further proves my point as it was also sold as the Hyundai Equus here.

C&D shows a Hyundai badge on the engine cover for the '11MY Equus.

What? I never said the USA Equus or USA Genesis models had no Hyundai badges. You are confused. I said the exact opposite, that the Korean models had no Hyundai badges on them. The 2011-2016 Equus for USA market had a flying H on the trunk.

That's because the intent, before the Great Recession of 2008, was to eventually launch a new luxury brand. As we know, the new brand got postponed for about 10 years, and when it was decided to import them to the USA starting in 2008 (Genesis), Hyundai Motor America decided to sell them as part of the Hyundai brand, in order to improve the brand reputation of Hyundai in the USA (straight from the mouth of then HMA CEO John Krafcik).

 

[YEH]

Again...the Korean market has absolutely no relevance on what is being purchased in the United States
If Hyundai wants to play in the United States luxury market they will need product, atmosphere and content that are desired by buyers in the United States... not the other way around

Again - no one is saying that it does.

But Hyundai dipped its toe in the lux segment w/ the 1G Equus and not a lux CUV (aside from the fact that lux CUVs weren't as popular back then even in the US) b/c that is what their domestic market demanded; Hyundai was not going to dip its toe in the lux segment catering to the US market (even if lux CUVs dominated back in 1999) since they needed to establish themselves in their domestic market first.

An automaker needs a strong presence in its domestic market as geo-politics (as can be seen in the Chinese boycott of not only H/K, but all Korean products) as the basis before expanding to other markets (and here, w/ the current admin, a non-domestic automaker runs the risk of getting hit w/ a hike in tariffs).

The Genesis brand was launched in late 2016; Genesis is not going to have CUVs ready in a flash (esp. if they are going to do them right - which in today's world, allows for electrification).

The GV80 may launch in Korea as early as late next year - 3 yrs is not that long of a time to await not only an entirely new model, but one on a new platform; a platform which apparently was designed w/ electrification from the start.

Again, you are arguing over nothing as no one is disputing that Genesis needs CUVs for the NA market (actually stated at the time that Genesis needed to add a 3rd CUV when they 1st announced their product map in 2016; something which they proceeded to do months later), but the notion that Hyundai needed to start w/ CUVs was ridiculous (for the reason stated).

In addition, the Genesis brand is starting w/ CUVs - as the GV80 will be the first Genesis product launched from inception.

The G70 was in development a good while before the launch of the Genesis brand - which is why its design language differs from that of the Genesis brand (as seen in the Essentia concept, the GV80 and even the facelifted G90).

One could say that in a way, the G70 is the last model that has strong ties to Hyundai.

So this downward trend of 20-22% in sales has to be a concern when its their entire Genesis United States portfolio

No one is saying that it isn't; but at the same time, let's not pretend that the market for lux sedans is dead in the US either.

BMW still sells about as many sedans/coups as CUVs (if not more) at this juncture.

Audi has seen increased sales of the A4 ever since the new model went on sale in 2016 and the A5/S5 has seen an even bigger increase in sales.

The Kia Stinger has done around 1.4k in sales the past 3 months despite having higher lease terms than competitors like the Q50 (a Q50 Red Sport is $200/ month cheaper to lease than a GT2).

There are other luxury sedans in the same price range of the G80 and G90 that have increasing sales year over year

Like what?

Not the GS or LS (have seen a spike w/ the new LS, but we'll eventually see sales decline once the early adopters have gotten theirs).

Q50 declined btwn 2016 and 2017.

After its launch in 2016, the 7 Series has seen a sales decline; the 5 Series may hit last year's sales total, but it may also miss it.

The S Class has declined every year in sales since its 2014 launch.

That being said - there are still sales to be had in the various lux sedan segments.

Over the years, the Genesis/G80 had actually fared pretty well - usually finishing 3rd after the E Class and 5 Series in sales.

But competition has gotten more fierce which is why Genesis needs to up its game for the next gen G80 (which I think they will, for the most part).

Even for its last model year, don't think we'll see G80 sales drop to the level of GS sales.

As I said before and I am sure you know...there are 2017 G90's , brand new, sitting on dealers lots.
Try to find other sedans in the same price range, like a 2017 E class or 5 series, sitting on a dealers lots

Putting $$ on the hood was a good way to grease sedan sales in 2017...

But discounts on Audi car models have risen by about $391 per vehicle to $4,796.

Mercedes is spending $6,755 on incentives per car sold through the first 10 months of the year, up about $242, while Lexus is up $266 to $5,426. Only BMW has reduced spending on passenger-car discounts, dropping its promotions by about $1,533 to $5,747 per vehicle through October, data released Thursday show.

SUV demand is killing off-lease luxury sedans

I hope Hyundai is subsidizing these independent dealers for having Genesis inventory sit there are more than a year?

Why would Hyundai?

Didn't cost most Hyundai dealerships $$ to carry the Genesis/G80 and the investment was minimal for those carrying the Equus/G90 ($100k-200k).

In fact, Hyundai had offered compensation packages of more than $4 million to certain dealerships for lost sales (which only applies to the G80 and G90) in not being awarded a Genesis store under the old 100 store plan.

The big brouhaha was due to many Hyundai dealerships/dealer groups being upset over getting cut out of Genesis (for the opportunity to sink millions into a new dealership).

The luxury sedan market is smaller than it used to be. However there are thousands of luxury sedans over $50K sold in the United States each month. Mercedes alone is selling 5500 cars a month in that category.

There are G80s that list for nearly $60k.

And MB is like the one exception to the rule.

S Class - 6,100

Pana - 2,942

LS 2,671

7 - 2,346

G90 - 1,226

XJ - 713

A8 - 484

Hyundai is selling 300 G90's a month and trending downward....and that is with large discounting

Pretty much everyone is discounting, even MB (w/ nearly $7k in spiffs on avg. for sedans last year).

Like I had stated before, could get $15k off the price of a new 7er w/o even trying - and that was a year ago when the 7 Series was still pretty new.

The Kia K900 only sold over 50 units a month once since January 2017

What do you expect?

The K900 is on an antiquated platform (which dates back to 1999) which doesn't even offer AWD.

Do you think they will break 100 a month with the new body style?

Don't see why not.

The old K900 broke the 100 sales barrier 16 times in its first 2 years of sale.

The new K900 is much better in every way (well, aside from maybe sheetmetal) and this time is available w/ AWD.

Lexus is hitting 1000 a month with the new LS

And as I had already stated - is a pace which isn't going to last and is a fraction of what the LS used to sell.

The Lexus ES is selling about 3500 a month and its close enough to the G80 price point to be sedan competition for the same budget buyer

Wasn't aware of the ES being spec'd to nearly $60k.

The Lexus ES is selling about 3500 a month and its close enough to the G80 price point to be sedan competition for the same budget buyer

So..there is plenty of available luxury sedan sales volume/willing buyers in the United States

So what exactly is it that you're trying to argue?

First you argue that Hyundai/Genesis shouldn't have started w/ sedans and now you're saying that there are plenty of available lux sedan sales.

Sorry, but can't have both sides of the coin.

 

[YEH]

What? I never said the USA Equus or USA Genesis models had no Hyundai badges. You are confused. I said the exact opposite, that the Korean models had no Hyundai badges on them. The 2011-2016 Equus for USA market had a flying H on the trunk.

Yes, I know that (that the US spec had Hyundai badges).

Got confused as to what you were stating - as you still can't grasp FACTS that have been posted numerous times.

How many times do I have to post this?

Again, at the 8:44 mark, the (blue) Hyundai Genesis has a Hyundai logo on its engine cover and the (grey) G80 has the winged Genesis logo.

And that's putting aside the presenter repeatedly referring to the blue car as the Hyundai Genesis and the grey car as the Genesis G80.

Again, it doesn't matter if the KDM versions have or don't have Hyundai badges anywhere - both the Genesis and Equus were known as Hyundais (as the Mustang, Thunderbird and Corvette are known to be Fords and a Chevy despite sans the Blue Oval or Bow Tie).

That is correct. Lexus models in the US were sold in Japan under the Toyota brand until about 2005 (Lexus brand in the US started in 1989). Most car sales in Japan and Korea actually take place in boutique shops in shopping malls or small stores as is being done in Canada right now to some degree. Service was done elsewhere.

And just like the Toyota Crown series and Toyota Century, despite each getting their own special badging, both are seen as Toyotas in Japan.

And in fact, the Crown and Century are sold at Toyota stores, along w/ models like the Land Cruiser, etc.

Toyopet stores carry the Mark X, GT-86 (also had carried the Celsior - aka Lexus LS).

Corolla stores carry the Camry, etc.

And there's also Netz.

Models like the Prius, Avensis and GT-86 can be carried by multiple sales networks, but regardless, they are all known as Toyotas.

 

[Mark_888]

Got confused as to what you were stating.

Yes, you got quite confused.

You tend to spew all kinds of facts, which may be true, but have nothing to do with anything I posted, and then you claim victory.

 

[YEH]

Excuse me if I (mistakenly) thought you finally had a semblance of acuity in realizing that you were wrong about the KDM Genesis not having the Hyundai logo anywhere after I had posted the relevant video a # of times (which showed otherwise).

But apparently, you're still as ignorant (or maybe mentally handicapped is more apropos at this juncture?) as before.

And sorry, you're the one who is spewing inane, tangent facts as if they support your argument (such as Lexus models having been sold as Toyotas in Japan).

So Koreans referring to the Genesis and Equus as the Hyundai Genesis and Hyundai Equus are facts which have nothing to do w/ the argument? lol

So why don't you go tell the Koreans how they have been wrong all this time; nevermind telling Hyundai corporate.

Really, how stupid can someone get?

 

[lt2211]

Excuse me if I (mistakenly) thought you finally had a semblance of acuity in realizing that you were wrong about the KDM Genesis not having the Hyundai logo anywhere after I had posted the relevant video a # of times (which showed otherwise).

But apparently, you're still as ignorant (or maybe mentally handicapped is more apropos at this juncture?) as before.

And sorry, you're the one who is spewing inane, tangent facts as if they support your argument (such as Lexus models having been sold as Toyotas in Japan).

So Koreans referring to the Genesis and Equus as the Hyundai Genesis and Hyundai Equus are facts which have nothing to do w/ the argument? lol

So why don't you go tell the Koreans how they have been wrong all this time; nevermind telling Hyundai corporate.

Really, how stupid can someone get?

Every time I come to check posts, they seem to be less and less interesting or relevant to the Genesis brand.

 

[turnne]

Again - no one is saying that it does.

But Hyundai dipped its toe in the lux segment w/ the 1G Equus and not a lux CUV (aside from the fact that lux CUVs weren't as popular back then even in the US) b/c that is what their domestic market demanded; Hyundai was not going to dip its toe in the lux segment catering to the US market (even if lux CUVs dominated back in 1999) since they needed to establish themselves in their domestic market first.

An automaker needs a strong presence in its domestic market as geo-politics (as can be seen in the Chinese boycott of not only H/K, but all Korean products) as the basis before expanding to other markets (and here, w/ the current admin, a non-domestic automaker runs the risk of getting hit w/ a hike in tariffs).

The Genesis brand was launched in late 2016; Genesis is not going to have CUVs ready in a flash (esp. if they are going to do them right - which in today's world, allows for electrification).

The GV80 may launch in Korea as early as late next year - 3 yrs is not that long of a time to await not only an entirely new model, but one on a new platform; a platform which apparently was designed w/ electrification from the start.

Again, you are arguing over nothing as no one is disputing that Genesis needs CUVs for the NA market (actually stated at the time that Genesis needed to add a 3rd CUV when they 1st announced their product map in 2016; something which they proceeded to do months later), but the notion that Hyundai needed to start w/ CUVs was ridiculous (for the reason stated).

In addition, the Genesis brand is starting w/ CUVs - as the GV80 will be the first Genesis product launched from inception.

The G70 was in development a good while before the launch of the Genesis brand - which is why its design language differs from that of the Genesis brand (as seen in the Essentia concept, the GV80 and even the facelifted G90).

One could say that in a way, the G70 is the last model that has strong ties to Hyundai.




No one is saying that it isn't; but at the same time, let's not pretend that the market for lux sedans is dead in the US either.

BMW still sells about as many sedans/coups as CUVs (if not more) at this juncture.

Audi has seen increased sales of the A4 ever since the new model went on sale in 2016 and the A5/S5 has seen an even bigger increase in sales.

The Kia Stinger has done around 1.4k in sales the past 3 months despite having higher lease terms than competitors like the Q50 (a Q50 Red Sport is $200/ month cheaper to lease than a GT2).




Like what?

Not the GS or LS (have seen a spike w/ the new LS, but we'll eventually see sales decline once the early adopters have gotten theirs).

Q50 declined btwn 2016 and 2017.

After its launch in 2016, the 7 Series has seen a sales decline; the 5 Series may hit last year's sales total, but it may also miss it.

The S Class has declined every year in sales since its 2014 launch.

That being said - there are still sales to be had in the various lux sedan segments.

Over the years, the Genesis/G80 had actually fared pretty well - usually finishing 3rd after the E Class and 5 Series in sales.

But competition has gotten more fierce which is why Genesis needs to up its game for the next gen G80 (which I think they will, for the most part).

Even for its last model year, don't think we'll see G80 sales drop to the level of GS sales.




Putting $$ on the hood was a good way to grease sedan sales in 2017...



SUV demand is killing off-lease luxury sedans




Why would Hyundai?

Didn't cost most Hyundai dealerships $$ to carry the Genesis/G80 and the investment was minimal for those carrying the Equus/G90 ($100k-200k).

In fact, Hyundai had offered compensation packages of more than $4 million to certain dealerships for lost sales (which only applies to the G80 and G90) in not being awarded a Genesis store under the old 100 store plan.

The big brouhaha was due to many Hyundai dealerships/dealer groups being upset over getting cut out of Genesis (for the opportunity to sink millions into a new dealership).




There are G80s that list for nearly $60k.

And MB is like the one exception to the rule.

S Class - 6,100

Pana - 2,942

LS 2,671

7 - 2,346

G90 - 1,226

XJ - 713

A8 - 484




Pretty much everyone is discounting, even MB (w/ nearly $7k in spiffs on avg. for sedans last year).

Like I had stated before, could get $15k off the price of a new 7er w/o even trying - and that was a year ago when the 7 Series was still pretty new.




What do you expect?

The K900 is on an antiquated platform (which dates back to 1999) which doesn't even offer AWD.




Don't see why not.

The old K900 broke the 100 sales barrier 16 times in its first 2 years of sale.

The new K900 is much better in every way (well, aside from maybe sheetmetal) and this time is available w/ AWD.




And as I had already stated - is a pace which isn't going to last and is a fraction of what the LS used to sell.




Wasn't aware of the ES being spec'd to nearly $60k.




So what exactly is it that you're trying to argue?

First you argue that Hyundai/Genesis shouldn't have started w/ sedans and now you're saying that there are plenty of available lux sedan sales.

Sorry, but can't have both sides of the coin.

LOL...down the rabbit hole...

Just a few points though

As I said there are ample luxury sedan sales in the United States each year

I am not sure where you got your sales figures from but Mercedes for one, has sold both more E and S class cars to date than the same period year over year( 2017 vs 2018). Both the G80 and G90 were available for sale during this same period
Heck Mercedes is selling more $150K G wagons than G90's are being sold

As I said before, the Genesis G80 is off 20% and G90 22% in sales volume , respectively for the same period year over year...and trending downward

I assure you there is NO WAY you are going to get the same type of discount on E class as you will on a G90. I use these because of the similar price
There are really no leftover Mercedes 2017 E classes on dealer lots either

You mention the Lexus LS trending downward....how far will the G90 trend downward versus the Lexus?

I am betting the G90 will trend downward more

I used the Lexus ES the G80 because the transaction prices are actually with in a few thousand dollars of each other
Due to the G80 sales volume being in the V6 and the heavy discounting , the cars come out to be very similar in transaction price

You no doubt have seen what people are actually paying for G80's...right?

Again...the conversation at the Lexus dealership for an ES doesn't start with $12K-15K off( or more) the sticker like it does with a G80

There are many 2017 G80's sitting on dealer lots as well. You talk about grease..lol
There is a LOT of grease being laid out on these cars to move them as a percentage of their sticker prices
And yet they are still sitting and trending downward in sales year over year

In regard to them introducing an antiquated platform for the K900....LOL

That's suggests a huge marketing mistake.
Probably the pickiest/finickiest market in the world and they introduce an antiquated platform...…….

The addition of AWD hasn't helped the G90 versus the historical Equus sales

I am betting the the refresh does nothing for the G90 sales. The same that held true for the Equus

Warren

 

[YEH]

^ Once again, you're arguing a non-issue.

No one is saying that CUVs aren't the body-style to go w/ for the US market.

Again, Genesis needed to establish itself in its home/domestic market first, before growing elsewhere - and the G80 and G90 have been huge successes for Genesis in their domestic market.

And as stated, elsewhere, it's a moot argument, as Genesis did not have a (RWD) platform suitable for CUV-duty.

The GV80 and GV70 are underpinned by a new RWD/AWD platform; and when the Genesis brand was launched in Korea in 2016, the first 2 models that got greenlit for production were the 2 CUVs (the G70 had already been in development for some time at that point).

 

[lt2211]

ES doesn't start with $12K-15K off (or more) the sticker like it does with a G80

You will have to prove that one. Give me a link to any dealer (excluding Michigan dealers) who are advertising $12-15 K off sticker on a new 2018 Genesis G80. Or proof from any individual that they received $12-15 K off the sticker price, on a new 2018 G80. Word from our area, there is a shortage of the 2018 G80 Ultimate, in the colors buyers want.