Number of Genesis sold in USA in 2017 and 2018

[turnne]

LOL!!

There's nothing to unpack.

Aside from you having been proved WRONG!




As already pointed out, the G90 has bested the Equus in having the best sales year.

G90 - 4,398
Equus - 3,972

Same for the 2G Genesis/G80 compared to the 1G Genesis.

2G Genesis/G80 - over 30k
1G Genesis - 22,980

So despite your proclamations to the contrary, the addition of AWD did increase sales of both the G90 and 2G Genesis/G80.

And that's even w/ the G90 and 2G/G80 getting a price hike and more buyers having switched to CUVs/SUVs.

Funny how you just ignore all that (being wrong) and just repeat/rehash the same tired and debunked arguments.

Even w/ the facts staring you in the face, you ridiculously repeat the your erroneous claim.






Geeze, do I have to correct everything you post?


The '17MY LS 460 started at $72,520.

The LS 500 starts at $75k.

Wouldn't exactly call a $2,480 hike a large bump.

And the LS 460 did 35,226 in its 1st/best year of sale.

Toyota is projecting only 12k for the LS 500 and they will struggle to hit that.

Doing 12k/yr in sales volume (likely just for the 1st year) doesn't exactly make for good ROI, esp. as the LS isn't exactly a big seller in Japan (not like what the G90 has been in Korea); which is exactly why Toyota prolonged the life of the LS 460 in order to squeeze out every penny from that platform and powertrain (which is also the reason why they never bothered to update the powertrain, which Hyundai did for the Equus).

Furthermore, rumors have been strife about the demise of the GS.

Even if the GS escapes the knife (once again), there have been indications that if it does return, it will do so as a lower volume 4-door coupe model.




Stated numerous times that domestic buyers tend to be a different breed (many wanting to purchase domestic if given the chance).

Also, there's a significantly larger spread btwn the starting price of the CT6 and G90 than there is btwn the G90 and LS 500.

The CT6 starting at $54.1k and the G90 starting at $68.3k.

Wow....the only thing I am going to bother to unpack here is the last sentence
Many cars have extensive options packages and customization options..a similar equipped the CT6 is right there in price with the G90

I actually test drove the G90 and Ct6 back to back

Did you bother to go to the cadillac website and do a build on the CT6 and price it out?
In fact you can price it above the G90 with options that are not available on the G90 for any price

Many manufacturers like to play games with "base" cars that no one actually buys
How many V6 BMW 7 series have you seen?...How many base S class cars have you seen?

I love how you clump the Genesis and G80 sales together..LOL

This doesnt show how the rebaged(G80) car is not selling as well as when it was a Genesis at the Hyundai dealerships....but ok

Also..the Equus...as I said before, is outselling the G80 in 2012(YTD) versus 2018

Based on what you said the AWD and new Genesis "marketing" should have made the G90 "explode" over the Equus

Then there was the fact like Equus was an older design and should not have done as well...
I am using your same reasoning as to why the outgoing Kia K900 has performed the way that it has in sales...since it was an old design

But anyway...here is the long and the short of it

While the luxury sedan market is flat in the United States there is still plenty of sales that occur

At the price point of sedans that the G80 plays in...the $38-45K range...there is plenty of sales volume
Just the top three in this price range sell about almost 15000 cars a month

In the $58-65K price range of sedans where the G90 plays
Smaller volume...but still 7000 cars a month

There are winners and losers that move each year
What you should be looking at is market share in sedans of this price range.

That is the litmus test

 

[YEH]

Wow....the only thing I am going to bother to unpack here is the last sentence
Many cars have extensive options packages and customization options..a similar equipped the CT6 is right there in price with the G90

I actually test drove the G90 and Ct6 back to back

Did you bother to go to the cadillac website and do a build on the CT6 and price it out?
In fact you can price it above the G90 with options that are not available on the G90 for any price

Many manufacturers like to play games with "base" cars that no one actually buys
How many V6 BMW 7 series have you seen?...How many base S class cars have you seen?

The CT6 is not the S Class, much less the 7 Series.
And how many higher end CT6 is Cadillac moving?

The XTS ranges in price from $46.4k all the way up to $72.5k

In comparison, the CT6 ranges in price from $54.1k to $88.3k.

The ATP for the XTS has consistently stayed at $52-53k (2013-2017).

Which likely means a high % of buyers having opted for the mid trim, w/ some even for the lower trims.

Everyone but MB and BMW (in various levels) offer a value play, and part of that value play is the cost of entry (which is why Toyota was loathe to move the ES up a price-segment alongside the XTS, MKS/Continental. S90 and RLX - when the ES switched over to the Avalon platform, b/c doing so would have cut off a good % of ES owners).

So let's say that the ATP for the CT6 is $68.4k - on par w/ the entry price of the G90.

There still would be CT6 owners who paid less than that and opted for a mid-tier or even one of the lower trims.

3 Series sales would be lower w/o the 320 (starts at $34.9k) - which BMW uses as its CLA and A3 competitor.

I love how you clump the Genesis and G80 sales together..LOL

It makes perfect sense to clump them together if we are discussing sales in the context of whether it was worth the investment by an automaker - as the G80 and G90 share the same platform family and the same powertrains.

Every sale of a G80 or G90 (whether here or in Korea) increases the economies of scale for the platform and powertrains.

There has been more indication that Toyota will not continue the GS past its current gen and now even the question of whether the IS will survive the cutting block.

A big reason for that is that neither model sells in Japan - hence, minimizing the economies of scale.

W/o Japanese sales, a dwindling US market isn't enough for Toyota to keep investing in those models (and look how long it took them to invest in a new LS).

Strong G80 and G90 sales in Korea (not to mention that of the new K900) means that Hyundai is getting enough ROI on costly expenditures for the platform and powertrains that declining US sales (to a certain extent) won't materially impact whether it is worth Hyundai to keep spending $$ on the next gen platform/powertrains.

This doesnt show how the rebaged(G80) car is not selling as well as when it was a Genesis at the Hyundai dealerships....but ok

What about this do you not get?

2G Genesis/G80 - over 30k
1G Genesis - 22,980

The addition of AWD did increase sales.

Did you really think a simple rebadge would increase sales? Esp. when it had been on the market already for 2 years?

On top of that, CUVs still continue to gain marketshare, so expecting a sedan (into its 3rd year) to increase sales in this environment was highly improbable.

The 2G Genesis sedan had lower sales during its 2nd year, so the decline in sales started before the badge switch.

Also..the Equus...as I said before, is outselling the G80 in 2012(YTD) versus 2018

Based on what you said the AWD and new Genesis "marketing" should have made the G90 "explode" over the Equus.

So, you're finally admitting that you were wrong, but now are changing the parameters.

The G90 saw an 11% gain on the best sales year of the Equus, and again, that's in light of buyers moving to CUVs and the higher price-point.

Stated that the addition of AWD should help sales, but also stated that the flagship sedan was never going to be a big seller (which, didn't mean that it still couldn't outsell other flagship sedans sans the S Class and 7 Series - which it did).

Then there was the fact like Equus was an older design and should not have done as well...
I am using your same reasoning as to why the outgoing Kia K900 has performed the way that it has in sales...since it was an old design

The Equus launched in the US in late 2010.

The Equus launched in Korea mid-2009.

So taking the usual 6 months delay in hitting the US market, the Equus was only delayed by less than a year.

Meanwhile the K900 didn't hit the US market 'til 2014, and had its best sales year in 2015 - at which point sales really started to decline.

By 2016 - the platform was almost 7 yrs old, which is right when Genesis launched the G90 in the US.

So no, not comparable.

But anyway...here is the long and the short of it

While the luxury sedan market is flat in the United States there is still plenty of sales that occur

At the price point of sedans that the G80 plays in...the $38-45K range...there is plenty of sales volume
Just the top three in this price range sell about almost 15000 cars a month

Buyers generally are different for FWD and RWD sedans.

What you should be looking at is market share in sedans of this price range.

Yeah, so Audi, Cadillac, Jaguar and Lexus should just quit now and give up on the midsize and flagship sedan segments.

And w/ all your [ib]harping[/i] on discounting for the G80 and G90, you overlook that everyone is discounting sedans these days.

Lexus has offered (and is currently offering) $4,500 in lease cash on the ES (depending on market, can also apply other incentives) and the general rule of thumb for prospective ES buyers is to get 13-14% off the list price (probably more these days).

And w/ the larger built-in margins on the GS, could get over 20% off MSRP in the past (wouldn't surprise me to get that kind of a discount on a GS right now).

 

[turnne]

The CT6 is not the S Class, much less the 7 Series.
And how many higher end CT6 is Cadillac moving?

The XTS ranges in price from $46.4k all the way up to $72.5k

In comparison, the CT6 ranges in price from $54.1k to $88.3k.

The ATP for the XTS has consistently stayed at $52-53k (2013-2017).

Which likely means a high % of buyers having opted for the mid trim, w/ some even for the lower trims.

Everyone but MB and BMW (in various levels) offer a value play, and part of that value play is the cost of entry (which is why Toyota was loathe to move the ES up a price-segment alongside the XTS, MKS/Continental. S90 and RLX - when the ES switched over to the Avalon platform, b/c doing so would have cut off a good % of ES owners).

So let's say that the ATP for the CT6 is $68.4k - on par w/ the entry price of the G90.

There still would be CT6 owners who paid less than that and opted for a mid-tier or even one of the lower trims.

3 Series sales would be lower w/o the 320 (starts at $34.9k) - which BMW uses as its CLA and A3 competitor.




It makes perfect sense to clump them together if we are discussing sales in the context of whether it was worth the investment by an automaker - as the G80 and G90 share the same platform family and the same powertrains.

Every sale of a G80 or G90 (whether here or in Korea) increases the economies of scale for the platform and powertrains.

There has been more indication that Toyota will not continue the GS past its current gen and now even the question of whether the IS will survive the cutting block.

A big reason for that is that neither model sells in Japan - hence, minimizing the economies of scale.

W/o Japanese sales, a dwindling US market isn't enough for Toyota to keep investing in those models (and look how long it took them to invest in a new LS).

Strong G80 and G90 sales in Korea (not to mention that of the new K900) means that Hyundai is getting enough ROI on costly expenditures for the platform and powertrains that declining US sales (to a certain extent) won't materially impact whether it is worth Hyundai to keep spending $$ on the next gen platform/powertrains.





What about this do you not get?

2G Genesis/G80 - over 30k
1G Genesis - 22,980

The addition of AWD did increase sales.

Did you really think a simple rebadge would increase sales? Esp. when it had been on the market already for 2 years?

On top of that, CUVs still continue to gain marketshare, so expecting a sedan (into its 3rd year) to increase sales in this environment was highly improbable.

The 2G Genesis sedan had lower sales during its 2nd year, so the decline in sales started before the badge switch.






So, you're finally admitting that you were wrong, but now are changing the parameters.

The G90 saw an 11% gain on the best sales year of the Equus, and again, that's in light of buyers moving to CUVs and the higher price-point.

Stated that the addition of AWD should help sales, but also stated that the flagship sedan was never going to be a big seller (which, didn't mean that it still couldn't outsell other flagship sedans sans the S Class and 7 Series - which it did).




The Equus launched in the US in late 2010.

The Equus launched in Korea mid-2009.

So taking the usual 6 months delay in hitting the US market, the Equus was only delayed by less than a year.

Meanwhile the K900 didn't hit the US market 'til 2014, and had its best sales year in 2015 - at which point sales really started to decline.

By 2016 - the platform was almost 7 yrs old, which is right when Genesis launched the G90 in the US.

So no, not comparable.






Buyers generally are different for FWD and RWD sedans.




Yeah, so Audi, Cadillac, Jaguar and Lexus should just quit now and give up on the midsize and flagship sedan segments.

And w/ all your [ib]harping[/i] on discounting for the G80 and G90, you overlook that everyone is discounting sedans these days.

Lexus has offered (and is currently offering) $4,500 in lease cash on the ES (depending on market, can also apply other incentives) and the general rule of thumb for prospective ES buyers is to get 13-14% off the list price (probably more these days).

And w/ the larger built-in margins on the GS, could get over 20% off MSRP in the past (wouldn't surprise me to get that kind of a discount on a GS right now).

hmmm

where to start here

No..A Cadillac CT6 is not a S class or a & 7 series...and nor is the G90
Never said it was
The "average " CT6 has about the same sticker( and transaction price) as the G90 and actually has a higher available feature content than the G90

The G90 is not selling as well as the Equus did in in its best year...to date
No,I didn't think a rebadge G80 would bring in increased buyers
But is seems with the G90 that an all new platform and the addition of AWD doesn't seem to be having much impact either

In fact if you look back at what I posted nearly two years ago I predicted the very sales situation the Hyundai/Genesis dealers have on their hands right now

Why should the other manufacturers give up on their sedans?
Lexus is selling 3500 ES350s a month( with a dated platform)..and there is new bodystyle coming that will increase sales no doubt
And that car is smack dab in the same transaction price range as the G80
In fact as a used car its worth more than the G80/Genesis is

None of those brands you mentioned is discounting as heavily as Genesis is on their sedans in the same price range

Then there are some other new redesign's coming in the next 6 months that will probably change market share in the $38-45K range that the G80 resides in and the $58-65K range the G90 resides in

And for about the tenth time...
What happens in Korea has no bearing on what buyers in the United States want to buy or how they want to buy cars

Sales of sedans in the categories of the G80 ( $38-45K) and G90($58-65K) is not falling in the United States
You keep mentioning everyone is jumping and buying SUV's. Its simply not the case
SUV sales are growing and likely more profitable...but there is still a consistent and high number of sedans sold in the United States at the G80 price point
Just between Lexus(ES350 w/dated platform), BMW(3/4 series) and Mercedes( C class) there is approximately 15,000 cars a month sold in the United States


You do realize that those discounts you mention available on a Lexus...that you can get much higher discounts on a G80s and G90s these days right?

Warren

 

[YEH]

^ You stated in numerous posts that (1) the G90 didn't outsell the Equus and (2) that the addition of AWD didn't help sales - both of which have been proven false.

And that was an increase in light of accelerated movement to CUVs/SUVs.

Also, stated from the very start (re the whole argument that Hyundai should have launched the Genesis brand and dealer network when they launched the Genesis sedan) that doing so may attract more buyers who would eschew purchasing a non-premium branded lux sedan, but would also lose some buyers in the process due to the higher pricing such a thing would have entailed.

And speaking of the Genesis sedan, based on the early sales data, seems like the Kia Stinger may even more successful than the 1G Genesis outside of Korea.

Last month, sold 2,816 in 4 of the 5 largest markets for the Stinger (US, Korea, Australia and Canada; Canada has yet to get the turbo-4) and the EU should push it close to the 3,500 mark.

Australian sales have been limited by the availability of the 3.3TT; a whopping 82% of Oz Stinger buyers opt for the TTV6, but not only that, 78% get the top -of-the-line Stinger and 35% of the TTV6 buyers spend another AU $2659.99 (retail) for the dealer fitted, bimodal sports exhaust.

In Germany, sold 129 units - which is more than the combined sales of the IS, RC, GS, LS, Q50 an Q60 (88).

In those 4 markets (of which Genesis has still yet to launch in Australia), the Korean lux models did nearly 7k in sales; and w/ the EU Stinger sales, should easily push it above that mark (the new K900 did 1,705 in Korea - which is more than what the new LS sold in the US and Japan combined).

Despite not being available fully in every market (Genesis still to launch in Aus. and the EU, the G70 still to launch in the US, Stinger currently limited to the V6 in Canada, no hybrid model yet which is key for the EU market), the Korean RWD sedans outsell the Lexus RWD sedans/coupes (substituting Japan for the Korean market).

So, all in all, considering the current market being in favor of CUVs/SUVs, sales of the RWD H/K sedans/saloons are pretty decent.

There certainly is no talk of H/K discontinuing any of their RWD sedans like what surrounds the GS and even now, the IS.

 

[MyCorvette]

My comments:

1. A car brand doing well in one market, does not mean it will perform well in another market. This is totally normal and understandable. So we admit: while Genesis is doing well in Korean domestic market; in North America at this moment it is definitely not doing well, compared to "tier-2" or even "tier-3" luxury brands (Acura/Infiniti/Volvo etc.), let alone the "tier-1" brands (Mercedes/BMW/Audi/Lexus etc.)

2. While a brand is generating positive profit globally, it is still senior management's due diligence to make effort to terminate regional markets, which are constantly losing money with no hope to overturn. Just as if one of your internal organ is slowly bleeding, even though the speed of your body to produce new blood can easily compensate that bleeding, you will not consider yourself to be in good health, and you definitely will not let this bleeding keep going forever.

I do not know what is the Korean company's traditional culture; but I do know the principle of business is universal. After you have run a brand in a market for a couple of years, you will have the feeling that whether it will be successful and earning money. From how the Genesis brand is doing in US and Canadian market, I do see the trend has been formed and the base tone already set. It is like a student constantly get D or even F grade in every college/gradate school math/physics/science courses, suddenly become a Nobel prize laureate in the next few years - this simply won't happen. On the contrary, you will know this student won't make his career in science at all, during his life.

3. The G70 has been on sale in Canada for a couple months. Look at the sales stats, only 1/8 - 1/6 of the C class, or 3-series, or A4 etc. Even the IS or ATS each outsold it by ~2x. Given the similarity of cultures/behaviors/mindset between Canadian and US consumers, how the G70 performs in Canadian market predicts the US market, proportionally.

No doubt, Genesis models are all mechanically sound and well done, but again like what I have said above, in auto industry this has little effect on whether the brand will be successful or not. Yes it is unfair and sad, but this is reality, at least for NA markets.

 

[turnne]

^ You stated in numerous posts that (1) the G90 didn't outsell the Equus and (2) that the addition of AWD didn't help sales - both of which have been proven false.

And that was an increase in light of accelerated movement to CUVs/SUVs.

Also, stated from the very start (re the whole argument that Hyundai should have launched the Genesis brand and dealer network when they launched the Genesis sedan) that doing so may attract more buyers who would eschew purchasing a non-premium branded lux sedan, but would also lose some buyers in the process due to the higher pricing such a thing would have entailed.

And speaking of the Genesis sedan, based on the early sales data, seems like the Kia Stinger may even more successful than the 1G Genesis outside of Korea.

Last month, sold 2,816 in 4 of the 5 largest markets for the Stinger (US, Korea, Australia and Canada; Canada has yet to get the turbo-4) and the EU should push it close to the 3,500 mark.

Australian sales have been limited by the availability of the 3.3TT; a whopping 82% of Oz Stinger buyers opt for the TTV6, but not only that, 78% get the top -of-the-line Stinger and 35% of the TTV6 buyers spend another AU $2659.99 (retail) for the dealer fitted, bimodal sports exhaust.

In Germany, sold 129 units - which is more than the combined sales of the IS, RC, GS, LS, Q50 an Q60 (88).

In those 4 markets (of which Genesis has still yet to launch in Australia), the Korean lux models did nearly 7k in sales; and w/ the EU Stinger sales, should easily push it above that mark (the new K900 did 1,705 in Korea - which is more than what the new LS sold in the US and Japan combined).

Despite not being available fully in every market (Genesis still to launch in Aus. and the EU, the G70 still to launch in the US, Stinger currently limited to the V6 in Canada, no hybrid model yet which is key for the EU market), the Korean RWD sedans outsell the Lexus RWD sedans/coupes (substituting Japan for the Korean market).

So, all in all, considering the current market being in favor of CUVs/SUVs, sales of the RWD H/K sedans/saloons are pretty decent.

There certainly is no talk of H/K discontinuing any of their RWD sedans like what surrounds the GS and even now, the IS.

Why do you keep bringing up all these other markets outside the United States?

For about the 50th time it has no bearing on what vehicles buyers will buy in the United States or the manner in which they will buy them
And yes the Equus is on track to outsell the G90
I am comparing 2012 to 2018....and the Equus was an older design with no AWD available

The G80( rebadge) is not selling at levels when it was just called a Hyundai
Both the G80 and G90 are being discounted heavily with upwards of 20% off sticker...along with rapidly falling resale value

Note that I said this was going to happen two years ago if you read my posts....

And for about the 50th time as well
The overall market for sedans, in the same transaction price range of the G80 and G90, in the United States has not fallen
The transaction range that the G80 is in is huge...check out the Lexus ES350( an old design)..BMW 3/4 series..Mercedes C class
Just those are over 15000 cars a month

So..if the market is not shrinking and yet sales of a particular unit is going down

That is simply a loss in market share

Stop making excuses about CUV's/SUV's and speaking to what is selling in Australia...LOL

Warren

 

[Mcc]

Both the G80 and G90 are being discounted heavily with upwards of 20% off sticker...along with rapidly falling resale value

You have said this many times but I am not seeing the proof from the posts here. You can point to what is for sale online but until it is sold and we know the details, it can’t be called really representative. I have seen the last few posters say they bought around $60-62K for their G90.

Is anyone out there buying at a discount upwards of 20% on the G90 that is not a special case like miles or demo or something like that?

Wanting to make it lower to prove your repeated point won’t make it so.

 

[turnne]

$60-62K from a 75K sticker

You have said this many times but I am not seeing the proof from the posts here. You can point to what is for sale online but until it is sold and we know the details, it can’t be called really representative. I have seen the last few posters say they bought around $60-62K for their G90.

Is anyone out there buying at a discount upwards of 20% on the G90 that is not a special case like miles or demo or something like that?

Wanting to make it lower to prove your repeated point won’t make it so.

Make it lower?

a $75K sticker and cars transacting in 60-62K range is what percentage off?

Then there are used 2017 V8's on them in the mid 40's( asking prices)


Warren

 

[Mcc]

$60-62K from a 75K sticker


Make it lower?

a $75K sticker and cars transacting in 60-62K range is what percentage off?

Then there are used 2017 V8's on them in the mid 40's( asking prices)


Warren

I honestly am not interested in asking price. I think you need to wait until the buy to see if there are any warts.

Now let’s say 61k as a mid range of the numbers you gave although there are those who have posted legitimately higher purchase prices. And we will assume an Ultimate

So 61k/71.850k = ~15% discount on the RWD
And 61k/74.350k = ~18% discount on the AWD

So where is the upwards of 20% off sticker?
To me that means it would be discounted price of significantly less than $60k for the G90 Ultimate AWD. Not seeing it with the numbers you gave.

 

[turnne]

I honestly am not interested in asking price. I think you need to wait until the buy to see if there are any warts.

Now let’s say 61k as a mid range of the numbers you gave although there are those who have posted legitimately higher purchase prices. And we will assume an Ultimate

So 61k/71.850k = ~15% discount on the RWD
And 61k/74.350k = ~18% discount on the AWD

So where is the upwards of 20% off sticker?
To me that means it would be discounted price of significantly less than $60k for the G90 Ultimate AWD. Not seeing it with the numbers you gave.

You are right....based on the "average" mid range price you used
That makes me 3% per cent off of the upwards of 20%

And yes I know some paid significantly higher prices.....they did the same thing on the Equus
I think the Hyundai salesmen would charge you sticker if they thought they could

As some one told me years ago
Something is worth what someone is willing to pay

With automobiles, transaction prices vary widely

Unfortunately when/if they trade them in they will not get the benefit of paying over the market average transaction price

Warren

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[Mcc]

No worries.
I am sure that for those willing to wait a few years the price will be lower.
My point has always been that while a lease return might be a good deal, a G90 is also a good deal new.

 

[turnne]

No worries.
I am sure that for those willing to wait a few years the price will be lower.
My point has always been that while a lease return might be a good deal, a G90 is also a good deal new.

I think the day to buy a used 2017 good deal is already here

I have seen $46K( asking) for a 2017 V8 AWD ultimate w/10K miles at a dealership

I used to say they would be bringing $35K at 3 years old

I no longer think that is the case

Warren

 

[Mcc]

I know there is a lot to “see” out there. Things always look great a first glance. It’s see what the story is from those that do buy. They are not “bringing” anything until they are sold.

It seems that posters here are still buying new G90s. I doubt you mean it but your tone has always implied that you have to be an idiot to buy a new G90. Although I don’t claim to be unbiased but I think if that is what you mean to imply, a lot of folks here would disagree.

 

[YEH]

My comments:

1. A car brand doing well in one market, does not mean it will perform well in another market. This is totally normal and understandable. So we admit: while Genesis is doing well in Korean domestic market; in North America at this moment it is definitely not doing well, compared to "tier-2" or even "tier-3" luxury brands (Acura/Infiniti/Volvo etc.), let alone the "tier-1" brands (Mercedes/BMW/Audi/Lexus etc.)

Well, not exactly a fair comparison as Genesis currently only as 2 models (which are sedans) in its current lineup here.

When comparing apples to apples -

G80/G90 sales to GS/LS and A6/A8 sales, Genesis holds its own.

The only Acura sedan that competes in the segment is the RLX and we all know how RLX sales have been faring.

Along the same lines, it wouldn't be fair to compare Alfa sales to that of BMW considering that its current lineup only consists of the Giulia and the Stelvio (not really counting the old and niche 4C).

Anyhow, my whole point w/ that post was to show that there was strong enough sales worldwide for Hyundai/Genesis to be getting ROI, and thus, for Genesis to invest in the next gen replacement for the G70, G80 and G90.

That's something that cannot be said for the Lexus GS and even the IS.

And even the LS is on shaky ground when it comes to Toyota/Lexus getting a ROI - which is why it took so long for Lexus to replace the LS 460, wanting to squeeze every cent from the (ancient) platform and powertrain.

The LS doesn't really sell in Japan, nor does it sell in Europe.

Even in China, it's not not a particularly big seller (in comparison to the Germans or even the CT6).

With LS sales having fallen to where they are now - it's going to be very difficult for Toyota to see ROI (we will likely see Lexus drag out the life of the LS 500, like they did for the LS 460).

3. The G70 has been on sale in Canada for a couple months. Look at the sales stats, only 1/8 - 1/6 of the C class, or 3-series, or A4 etc. Even the IS or ATS each outsold it by ~2x. Given the similarity of cultures/behaviors/mindset between Canadian and US consumers, how the G70 performs in Canadian market predicts the US market, proportionally.

Have to keep in mind Genesis Canada experimenting w/ the direct sales approach which has had a limiting effect on sales (esp. as there are only a few Genesis boutiques in malls at the present).

While the G70 sold 111 last month, the Stinger (only available w/ the 3.3TT currently) sold 171 units.

While not exactly an apples to apples comparison, the G70/Stinger outsold both the Q50/Q60 and the IS/RC, as well as the ATS.

No doubt, Genesis models are all mechanically sound and well done, but again like what I have said above, in auto industry this has little effect on whether the brand will be successful or not. Yes it is unfair and sad, but this is reality, at least for NA markets.

Well, considering the G80 still outsells the GS and Q70 in Canada, as well as in the US, don't think you really have a point.

Currently the G80 sells 1.5x what the GS sells in Canada.

Before the switch to the Genesis brand and G80 moniker (and the limiting direct sales approach), the Genesis sedan outsold the GS and Q70 by many multiples.

Case in point.

2014

Genesis - 3,027
GS - 480
Q70 - 128

Before the switch to the Genesis brand and direct sales model, the (Hyundai branded) Genesis sedan simply spanked the GS and Q70 in sales.

 

[YEH]

Why do you keep bringing up all these other markets outside the United States?

Really? You still don't get it?

B/c whether an investment in a model/platform/powertrain is worth it for an automaker is based upon total worldwide sales.

If H/K are getting at least a decent ROI, then they will continue to invest in future generations of those nameplates/platforms.

Toyota isn't seeing that w/ either the GS and IS - which is why there has been a lot of scuttlebutt about both being on the chopping block.

The original argument was over whether Hyundai should have started w/ lux sedans first, rather than lux CUVs.

Putting aside the fact that when they started w/ lux sedans, CUVs hadn't attained the marketshare they have presently (in addition to Genesis not having a suitable platform, which is in development), even in today's marketplace, Hyundai is getting a decent return on its RWD sedan/platform investment, better than Toyota.

For about the 50th time it has no bearing on what vehicles buyers will buy in the United States or the manner in which they will buy them

Again, no one is arguing what Americans favor nowadays.

But what an automaker can offer to the marketplace is dependent on what getting enough economies of scale where there is sufficient ROI.

Even w/ dwindling sedan sales in the US, it still makes sense for H/K to offer RWD sedans in the US as there is sufficient sales worldwide.

That may not be the case for Toyota w/ the GS and IS.

Sure, would it be better for Genesis if their planned CUVs were on the lots now?

Most definitely, but they had to develop a new (lighter-weight) platform for their RWD CUVs - so that takes the normal time in developing a new platform (which will also underpin the next gen of Genesis sedans).

And yes the Equus is on track to outsell the G90

Sorry, that wasn't what you initially claimed (which was that the G90 never outsold the Equus).

I am comparing 2012 to 2018....and the Equus was an older design with no AWD available

LOL!

Can't just pick and choose years - have to take their best sales years.

2012 was the 2nd full year of sale for the Equus.

2017 was the 1st full year of sale for the Q90.

Not a material difference.

Maybe the G90 won't match the Equus in sales over its lifecycle, but as I had already pointed out, have to take into account the movement to CUVs/SUVs, as well as the higher price-point.

Take the new LS 500 for instance, it won't even come close to the best sales year for the LS 460 (35.2k).

It won't even come close to the 2nd best sales year for the LS 460 (20.2k).

The best it will do is around the 3rd and 4th best sales years for the LS 460 - which was during the Great Recession (around 11.5k).

That's how much of a drop off there has been in LS sales - and yet, you expect the G90 to grow in what has been a shrinking market for flagship sedans?

The G80( rebadge) is not selling at levels when it was just called a Hyundai

Again, the 2G Genesis sedan (w/ AWD) initially outsold the 1G Genesis.

What did the rebadge offer? (When many buyers were already switching badges on their own.)

By the time of the nameplate switch, the 2G Genesis/G80 was already in its 3rd year, when sedans (in this marketplace) typically see a decline.

Both the G80 and G90 are being discounted heavily with upwards of 20% off sticker...along with rapidly falling resale value

Note that I said this was going to happen two years ago if you read my posts....

First of all, that 20% # you're throwing out there is a bit high.

And 2nd, as I have stated numerous times - so is everyone else when it comes to sedans.

People are getting huge discounts on the 7 Series (as stated before, could get $15k knocked off the 7 Series w/o even trying when it was still pretty new) and S Class.

Heck, there was a prospective buyer who got a better lease deal on a '17MY C63 than on a Stinger GT2.

 

[MyCorvette]

Using your same logic, everything in auto industry will be "not exactly a fair comparison". For example, 3 series is not comparable to C class in US market (because you can say 3 series offers 5 different engine/output, but C class only has 2) - here I mean non M/AMG models.

With that being said, you can always find out an excuse for whatever you want to prove.

The same applies to the rest of your posts - you always pick other "loser" models from other brands to compare.

Showing Genesis is better than losers, won't make it to be a winner. The point is, although each of the other brands has loser models, they all have its own winner models. However for Genesis, all of its current offerings are not doing well in the NA market. For example:

GS/IS are not selling well, but Lexus has RX, NX; TLX/RLX may not sell well, but Acura has MDX and RDX. Audi A6/A8 are not so popular, but Audi has A4, Q5, Q7 which are doing great. Now think about, what Genesis has right now that can achieve similar sales volume? - None.

Well, not exactly a fair comparison as Genesis currently only as 2 models (which are sedans) in its current lineup here.

When comparing apples to apples -

G80/G90 sales to GS/LS and A6/A8 sales, Genesis holds its own.

The only Acura sedan that competes in the segment is the RLX and we all know how RLX sales have been faring.

Along the same lines, it wouldn't be fair to compare Alfa sales to that of BMW considering that its current lineup only consists of the Giulia and the Stelvio (not really counting the old and niche 4C).

Anyhow, my whole point w/ that post was to show that there was strong enough sales worldwide for Hyundai/Genesis to be getting ROI, and thus, for Genesis to invest in the next gen replacement for the G70, G80 and G90.

That's something that cannot be said for the Lexus GS and even the IS.

And even the LS is on shaky ground when it comes to Toyota/Lexus getting a ROI - which is why it took so long for Lexus to replace the LS 460, wanting to squeeze every cent from the (ancient) platform and powertrain.

The LS doesn't really sell in Japan, nor does it sell in Europe.

Even in China, it's not not a particularly big seller (in comparison to the Germans or even the CT6).

With LS sales having fallen to where they are now - it's going to be very difficult for Toyota to see ROI (we will likely see Lexus drag out the life of the LS 500, like they did for the LS 460).




Have to keep in mind Genesis Canada experimenting w/ the direct sales approach which has had a limiting effect on sales (esp. as there are only a few Genesis boutiques in malls at the present).

While the G70 sold 111 last month, the Stinger (only available w/ the 3.3TT currently) sold 171 units.

While not exactly an apples to apples comparison, the G70/Stinger outsold both the Q50/Q60 and the IS/RC, as well as the ATS.





Well, considering the G80 still outsells the GS and Q70 in Canada, as well as in the US, don't think you really have a point.

Currently the G80 sells 1.5x what the GS sells in Canada.

Before the switch to the Genesis brand and G80 moniker (and the limiting direct sales approach), the Genesis sedan outsold the GS and Q70 by many multiples.

Case in point.

2014

Genesis - 3,027
GS - 480
Q70 - 128

Before the switch to the Genesis brand and direct sales model, the (Hyundai branded) Genesis sedan simply spanked the GS and Q70 in sales.

 

[turnne]

I know there is a lot to “see” out there. Things always look great a first glance. It’s see what the story is from those that do buy. They are not “bringing” anything until they are sold.

It seems that posters here are still buying new G90s. I doubt you mean it but your tone has always implied that you have to be an idiot to buy a new G90. Although I don’t claim to be unbiased but I think if that is what you mean to imply, a lot of folks here would disagree.

There are some G90's selling

you can see the numbers versus other cars in the same price range


Warren

 

[turnne]

Really? You still don't get it?

B/c whether an investment in a model/platform/powertrain is worth it for an automaker is based upon total worldwide sales.

If H/K are getting at least a decent ROI, then they will continue to invest in future generations of those nameplates/platforms.

Toyota isn't seeing that w/ either the GS and IS - which is why there has been a lot of scuttlebutt about both being on the chopping block.

The original argument was over whether Hyundai should have started w/ lux sedans first, rather than lux CUVs.

Putting aside the fact that when they started w/ lux sedans, CUVs hadn't attained the marketshare they have presently (in addition to Genesis not having a suitable platform, which is in development), even in today's marketplace, Hyundai is getting a decent return on its RWD sedan/platform investment, better than Toyota.




Again, no one is arguing what Americans favor nowadays.

But what an automaker can offer to the marketplace is dependent on what getting enough economies of scale where there is sufficient ROI.

Even w/ dwindling sedan sales in the US, it still makes sense for H/K to offer RWD sedans in the US as there is sufficient sales worldwide.

That may not be the case for Toyota w/ the GS and IS.

Sure, would it be better for Genesis if their planned CUVs were on the lots now?

Most definitely, but they had to develop a new (lighter-weight) platform for their RWD CUVs - so that takes the normal time in developing a new platform (which will also underpin the next gen of Genesis sedans).




Sorry, that wasn't what you initially claimed (which was that the G90 never outsold the Equus).



LOL!

Can't just pick and choose years - have to take their best sales years.

2012 was the 2nd full year of sale for the Equus.

2017 was the 1st full year of sale for the Q90.

Not a material difference.

Maybe the G90 won't match the Equus in sales over its lifecycle, but as I had already pointed out, have to take into account the movement to CUVs/SUVs, as well as the higher price-point.

Take the new LS 500 for instance, it won't even come close to the best sales year for the LS 460 (35.2k).

It won't even come close to the 2nd best sales year for the LS 460 (20.2k).

The best it will do is around the 3rd and 4th best sales years for the LS 460 - which was during the Great Recession (around 11.5k).

That's how much of a drop off there has been in LS sales - and yet, you expect the G90 to grow in what has been a shrinking market for flagship sedans?




Again, the 2G Genesis sedan (w/ AWD) initially outsold the 1G Genesis.

What did the rebadge offer? (When many buyers were already switching badges on their own.)

By the time of the nameplate switch, the 2G Genesis/G80 was already in its 3rd year, when sedans (in this marketplace) typically see a decline.





First of all, that 20% # you're throwing out there is a bit high.

And 2nd, as I have stated numerous times - so is everyone else when it comes to sedans.

People are getting huge discounts on the 7 Series (as stated before, could get $15k knocked off the 7 Series w/o even trying when it was still pretty new) and S Class.

Heck, there was a prospective buyer who got a better lease deal on a '17MY C63 than on a Stinger GT2.

LOL

What I mean is United States buyers don't care what is going on in other countries
frankly a brand... a luxury brand especially, has to cater to what product they want and where and how they want to buy it

The market is very competitive in luxury sedans in the United States
Lots of choices and there is a lot of sales volume

And then why do you compare cars that are WAY more expensive?

Especially when you talk about discounting
$15K off a $100K car and $20K off a $75K car is a HUGE discount difference

In regard to a rebage
What is the Lexus ES350 then?
Its a rebadge on an old platform that sells in the same transaction price range as the G80
Lexus still moves 3500 of them a month in the United States

I suspect when the new body style rolls out later this year those number will go even higher monthly

btw..2011 was the first full year of Equus sales in the Unites States...not 2012

There are no dwindling sales of sedans in the United States
As I said about 5 times now

Looking at just three sedans close to the transaction price of the G80
The Mercedes C class..the BMW 3/4 series and the Lexus ES350, combined, sell over 15000 cars a month
The G80 is selling 800 a month.....
And there are thousands more sold than of just the three I mentioned in the sedan category in the same price range

When the new Lexus ES rolls out I bet the total numbers go up

The Mercedes E class, in the same price range as the G90, is selling 4000 a month in the United States
The G90 sold about 240 units in May 2018 in the United States

Sedan sales are not dwindling in the United States in either the G80 or G90sedan category transaction ranges

I am not sure why you keep mentioning dwindling sales. It is not true

Warren

 

[turnne]

Take the new LS 500 for instance, it won't even come close to the best sales year for the LS 460 (35.2k).

It won't even come close to the 2nd best sales year for the LS 460 (20.2k).

The best it will do is around the 3rd and 4th best sales years for the LS 460 - which was during the Great Recession (around 11.5k).

That's how much of a drop off there has been in LS sales - and yet, you expect the G90 to grow in what has been a shrinking market for flagship sedans?

.

LOL....why are you using figures from 10 years ago?

Look at 3-4 years ago and compare the LS to today

Sales are up and again we are talking about a car that was significantly more money than anything Hyundai had to offer

Lets look at the worst sales year for the LS...when the same body style had been around for what 7 years?

Compare that number to what a brand new design G90 is doing a year later

The OLD 7-8 year body style (2017) LS is on track to outsell the G90..... a sedan that was brand new last year!!

Warren

 

[YEH]

Using your same logic, everything in auto industry will be "not exactly a fair comparison". For example, 3 series is not comparable to C class in US market (because you can say 3 series offers 5 different engine/output, but C class only has 2) - here I mean non M/AMG models.

Really can't separate out the non-AMG models as the C43 is essentially the competitor to the 340.

Plus, the 320 is BMW's current competitor to the likes of the CLA and A3 (until the new 2 Series arrives).

Of course, not everything lines up - the G80, for example, being a tweener in size.

But generally they do; unlike the competition, the G80 is not offered w/ a turbo-4, but didn't take that into account.

But something like this (variations in engine/powertrain offerings) is quite diff. from comparing a brand w/ a full (basic) lineup and one that only has 2 models.

It's totally not the same thing comparing Genesis sale now and 4 years from now when they will have 7 models in their lineup.

Do you think the industry compares Chrysler sales to that of Toyota - in light of Chrysler being only a 2 model brand these days?

Heck, even a comparison btwn Hyundai and Toyota wouldn't exactly be an apple and apple comparison since Hyundai doesn't compete in a no. of segments that Toyota does - pick-ups and BOF SUVs.

With that being said, you can always find out an excuse for whatever you want to prove.

Saying that it's not an apples to apples comparison to compare a 2-model brand to one w/ a full lineup is hardly making an excuse.

The same applies to the rest of your posts - you always pick other "loser" models from other brands to compare.

How am I always picking other loser models - when I'm picking/including every brand that is not BMW or MB?

OK, then - every brand other than BMW or MB is a loser.

Showing Genesis is better than losers, won't make it to be a winner. The point is, although each of the other brands has loser models, they all have its own winner models. However for Genesis, all of its current offerings are not doing well in the NA market. For example:

GS/IS are not selling well, but Lexus has RX, NX; TLX/RLX may not sell well, but Acura has MDX and RDX. Audi A6/A8 are not so popular, but Audi has A4, Q5, Q7 which are doing great. Now think about, what Genesis has right now that can achieve similar sales volume? - None.

Is this even a serious argument? lol

The whole point is that Genesis does not yet have competitors to the RX, NX, etc. or even the IS - so can only compare them in the segments in which they do compete.

Your argument is like GM spinning off Corvette into its own separate brand and then complaining about how low sales are in comparison to Toyota.

Geeze, when Lexus only had the LS400, were we supposed to compare Lexus sales to overall MB sales? Or just to S Class sales?