Ineffective high beams

[Rey]

Don't like my high beam pattern and light intensity. Have mounted the Sylvania SilverStar Ultra high performance bulbs, which made little improvement. My high beams seem pointed almost downward.

Noted that the high beam bulbs do not mount perfectly horizontal as I have seen in other vehicles. They are tilted upward about 5-10 degrees. The bulbs have a mounting prong on the rim at six o'clock and two mounting "bumps" on the rim at two and ten o'clock. There is no corresponding indentation at two and ten o'clock in the headlight hosing mount. I think this allows the bulbs to tilt. I will grind smooth the "bumps" on the bulbs and see if it makes a difference. Anyone tried this?

Also, the high beam bulbs are partially encased/shaded in a "cup" in the headlight housing. What is the purpose of this "cup". I have seen it on other vehicles also. But I have never seen such a cup on aftermarket driving lights - their bulbs are fully exposed. Wondering if anyone has removed these cups?

 

[Mark_888]

Do you have the tech package with auto-leveling headlights? If so, I would not make any changes without discussing the problem with the dealer service dept.

 

[Disaster]

Don't like my high beam pattern and light intensity. Have mounted the Sylvania SilverStar Ultra high performance bulbs, which made little improvement. My high beams seem pointed almost downward.

Noted that the high beam bulbs do not mount perfectly horizontal as I have seen in other vehicles. They are tilted upward about 5-10 degrees. The bulbs have a mounting prong on the rim at six o'clock and two mounting "bumps" on the rim at two and ten o'clock. There is no corresponding indentation at two and ten o'clock in the headlight hosing mount. I think this allows the bulbs to tilt. I will grind smooth the "bumps" on the bulbs and see if it makes a difference. Anyone tried this?

Also, the high beam bulbs are partially encased/shaded in a "cup" in the headlight housing. What is the purpose of this "cup". I have seen it on other vehicles also. But I have never seen such a cup on aftermarket driving lights - their bulbs are fully exposed. Wondering if anyone has removed these cups?

Silvania Silverstar are barely better than stock. Check to see if a HIR bulb is available. Might want to post a question on the Automotive forum of the Candlepower forums. There are real experts there.

Also, don't monkey with the "cup." It is part of the reflector assembly and if you remove it you will make the light worse while at the same time blind oncoming drivers.

By the way, do you have the tech package?...the one that comes with low beam HIDs?

 

[Rey]

I have the tech package. These high beams are independent of the self adjusting low beams. I may try with and without the cups on one headlight. It is easily reversible. I live in deer country where bright high beams are a true safety requirement. Dimming high beams for oncoming traffic is also a safety requirement. Thanks for the reference to Candle Power.

 

[Disaster]

I have the tech package. These high beams are independent of the self adjusting low beams. I may try with and without the cups on one headlight. It is easily reversible. I live in deer country where bright high beams are a true safety requirement. Dimming high beams for oncoming traffic is also a safety requirement. Thanks for the reference to Candle Power.

I agree you should check your high beam aim points however, you shouldn't mess with the cup.

The cup is part of the reflector system. Not only does it block forward light (which is unaimed and not useful) it reflects light back to the rear reflector so that it can be aimed. Removing it will compromise the forward light. The problem with messing with the reflectors or putting in an incorrect bulb (like an HID in a halogen housing) is that it can create uneven lighting with bright and dim spots. The brighter spots can fool your eyes into thinking there is more light when they actually reduce your visibility because your pupils adjust to the brighter spots and you see even less in the dimmer spots. This is a common occurance when people install HID kits in a halogen housing. The element, which must be precisely located to the reflector is not even close, scattering light into the forground and looking very bright...while objects further downfield, ones that really need to be seen, are not lit well.

P.S. For this same reason, one should never run with fog lights on when you don't need them because of fog. Fog lights light up the foreground for driving slower in bad conditions. When one uses them with their normal driving lights they actually reduce one's ability to see further down the road because the foglights make it too bright next to the car.

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/lights/fog_lamps/fog_lamps.html

The guys on the Candlepower forums are experts and know which bulbs are really the best for applications. One recommendation I've seen them make is to install a relay system (on some cars.) The wiring on lighting is often insufficient to handle the current. It becomes a resistor in the system, and lowers the voltage at the light. By installing larger wiring straight to the battery, and a relay, you can achieve 20-50% more light with some cars which the stock bulb and it needs to be done with most cars to get the full efficiency out of higher wattage bulbs. I have no idea if that is an issue with the Genesis.

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/relays/relays.html

Here is a link to the Candlepower forums
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=87\

Daniel Stern is a great source for brighter bulbs and bulb information. His FAQ is down right now but he has articles on HIR's, HID's and relays, that are very educational.

Here is what he says about "Super White" bulbs.
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/superwhite/superwhite.html

Here are his H7 bulb replacement recommendations. The Osram is 90% brighter than stock.

http://store.candlepower.com/h7bulbs.html

 

[Rey]

Thanks for the references to Candlepower, etc.
My chief complaint with my particular Genesis high beams is "pattern". My pattern is at best "muted" and somewhat downward. I had better high beams in a '55 Chevrolet. In previous cars I found that the bulbs had to be mounted perfectly. If they were canted at any degree the pattern was diminished. My stock bulbs do not mount flat. Hence, I will grind the mounting boss flat on each bulb with the goal of having bulbs that mount perfectly flat against their housings. My query was to determine if my situation is unique or is it common to all Genesis.
My query about the headlight cups was to see if anyone knew the engineering goal behind the cups. On first glance the cups appear to act as a means to reflect light back to the lens, but as best I can tell there is no reflective surface within the cups. If this is so, then the cups more or less mute the light. Again, my observation is that aftermarket driving lights I have seen do not have these "cups".
As for fog light usage, I agree with most of Stern's comments. But there is one use where high beams and fogs help - it is in deer country on narrow roads. There you need everything you can get. It is unlikely you will see the outline of a deer. Rather it is the deers' eyes reflections that can be picked up by wide beams - sometimes you hope. I have wired fogs to operate independently on motorcycles, simply because any motorcycle/deer accident can be fatal. The hassle/benefit on my Genesis is far less critical, so I will probably leave the wiring as is.
As for HID aftermarket bulbs, it seems to me that the best one can hope for with a bad pattern is a brighter bad pattern. So far I have not seen any complaints that the heat of HID bulbs destroying one's reflector. Years ago I tried 100 watt Osrams on a motorcycle. The added heat effectively cooked the reflector.

 

[Disaster]

In previous cars I found that the bulbs had to be mounted perfectly. If they were canted at any degree the pattern was diminished. My stock bulbs do not mount flat. Hence, I will grind the mounting boss flat on each bulb with the goal of having bulbs that mount perfectly flat against their housings. My query was to determine if my situation is unique or is it common to all Genesis.

I've not noticed this with mine, but around here, we do most of our driving on low beam (city.) I'd be very nervous filing away at the headlight assembly because, like you said, light filament location is critical to getting a good pattern and if you mess that up, a replacement would be really expensive. Are you saying the headlight assembly base itself is molded poorly? I might attack it if there was a piece of plastic flashing causing a problem but I'd be worried that any "cant" is by design...to get the filament in the correct location.

My query about the headlight cups was to see if anyone knew the engineering goal behind the cups. On first glance the cups appear to act as a means to reflect light back to the lens, but as best I can tell there is no reflective surface within the cups. If this is so, then the cups more or less mute the light. Again, my observation is that aftermarket driving lights I have seen do not have these "cups".

I'd post that question on Candlepower. You'll definitely get a more educated response than I can give.

As for HID aftermarket bulbs, it seems to me that the best one can hope for with a bad pattern is a brighter bad pattern. So far I have not seen any complaints that the heat of HID bulbs destroying one's reflector. Years ago I tried 100 watt Osrams on a motorcycle. The added heat effectively cooked the reflector.

With HID's you get a brighter worser pattern. :-O

The OSRAM's sold at Candlepower are not higher wattage, so they should be fine.

 

[bobferg2]

Has anyone tried the Silverstar "Ultra" for the Genesis Sedan Hi Beam application? My Hi Beams seem to point low also, and have a yellow tint. My dealer wants $60 to install them, and if there is only a slight improvement, it hardly seems like it's worth $130.

Bob F.

 

[Disaster]

Has anyone tried the Silverstar "Ultra" for the Genesis Sedan Hi Beam application? My Hi Beams seem to point low also, and have a yellow tint. My dealer wants $60 to install them, and if there is only a slight improvement, it hardly seems like it's worth $130.

Bob F.

I've never seen the Silverstar "Ultra" recommended by the experts. Here is a thread with H7 recommendations at the Candlepower light forums, where the experts reside. The Osrams are overwhelmingly recommended. At 2100 lumen, these are in HID territory...probably brighter than some of the cheap Chinese HID's people buy.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=263196
http://store.candlepower.com/osraulhiouh7.html

$60 bucks seems steep for a bulb replacement.

 

[Midnightsun]

Why not just put in a H7 HID kit for the high beams. They will outperform any halogen bulb out there while consuming less power. On the highs, there is no need to worry about blinding oncoming drivers due to improper design as we all dim for them regardless. Since the low beams stay on with the highs selected it would definitely make for some major light.

Now if I could only find a wiring diagram to disable the DRL function I would do this to mine also. Anybody know where the DRL relay is located?

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[Disaster]

Why not just put in a H7 HID kit for the high beams. They will outperform any halogen bulb out there while consuming less power. On the highs, there is no need to worry about blinding oncoming drivers due to improper design as we all dim for them regardless. Since the low beams stay on with the highs selected it would definitely make for some major light.

Now if I could only find a wiring diagram to disable the DRL function I would do this to mine also. Anybody know where the DRL relay is located?

Because the HID kits DO NOT outperform halogens when installed in reflectors designed for halogen lights. Lights require very precise focus to put the light where it needs to be. This requires the filament or light arc (in case of HID) to be very accurately placed within the reflector. HID's have completely different light filaments than halogens and when installed in a halogen reflector cast uneven light that does not go where it needs to go.

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/Hid/conversions/conversions.html

 

[Midnightsun]

Not going to argue with anyone here but I can tell you when I installed a 35 watt hid kit in my snowmobile the difference was unbelievable. I so happen to have a set in the mail for the wife's Nissan Cube which is a standard H7 dual filament arrangement. I will be happy to post pictures and real life differences as I will be installing this most like on Monday or Tuesday when they arrive. My previous ride was A Hyundai Veracruz and I did instal an H7 kit on that to replace the halogen bulb. There was no comparison whatsoever in light output. The hid blew the halogen away by at least twice and this is in a halogen housing. Drove it for 3 years like this and it was amazing. The Genny actually replaced the Veracruz. Different needs now of course.

 

[STREETS]

With a name like Midnightsun. I'll take his word for it on nightime illumination! lol

 

[Disaster]

Not going to argue with anyone here but I can tell you when I installed a 35 watt hid kit in my snowmobile the difference was unbelievable. I so happen to have a set in the mail for the wife's Nissan Cube which is a standard H7 dual filament arrangement. I will be happy to post pictures and real life differences as I will be installing this most like on Monday or Tuesday when they arrive. My previous ride was A Hyundai Veracruz and I did instal an H7 kit on that to replace the halogen bulb. There was no comparison whatsoever in light output. The hid blew the halogen away by at least twice and this is in a halogen housing. Drove it for 3 years like this and it was amazing. The Genny actually replaced the Veracruz. Different needs now of course.

There is a big difference between something seeming way brighter and something being brighter where it needs to be brighter. I common problem with installing an HID into a halogen housing is the light pattern is very inconsistent with much too much light scattered instead of focussed. This extra light can make it seem very bright because your eyes see the brighter spots and perceive it as brighter.

You don't realize it is not much brighter...or even dimmer, in the dark spots. This can actually make it much more difficult to see because your pupils will close down to the closer bright light and further objects, that you really need to see, will be much harder to see.

The scattered light also glares in the eyes of other motorists, making for a very dangerous situation for them. That is why it is illegal.

The other issue with installing HID's in place of halogens for high beams, is HID's require warm up time to reach full brightness and there lifetime is negatively impacted by on/off cycles. In a typical drive, when you turn on and off the high beams for oncoming cars you will first, not get full high beam brightness, and second, wear out the HID's. That is why you see regular halogens used for high beams on most cars.

In the case where manufacturers do use HID's for the high beams, they use a bi-level beam. The hi and low light are the same HID light and a filter is moved in front of the beam to cut off the high part of the beam when used as a low beam. This way the HID light stays illuminated all the time.

 

[jacky2010th]

The high beams are one kind of bulb, the low beams another kind of bulb. The two also do not 'aim' independently: the lamp housing is 'aimed' as an unit The dealer must know the correct bulbs to install. I have replaced those bulbs (which are not very bright) with 9011s and 9012s, which cost more but have many good characteristics, incl. more brightness and long life, with same wattage.
Normally. because of the shape of the connector and the shape of the flanges on the bulbs, you cannot install the wrong bulb in the highs or low beams. Maybe something is wrong with your power supply to the bulbs?

 

[Sayantsi]

I think the Genesis just doesn't have very well designed high beams. There seems to be a cut-off for height, which makes little sense in a high beam, and the bulbs are not that bright regardless.

One caveat on HIDs in reflector housings. For low beams this is a no-no since you ruin the light cutoff and blind oncoming traffic, but with high beams, its not as much of an issue since the purpose is to throw light high and far. Still, the reflector design may make for odd patterns.

I raised my headlight assemblies' aim to alleviate the high beams being too low, and recommend that to others concerned about lighting. Just don't raise them too much or you will blind oncoming traffic.

 

[Sayantsi]

common problem with installing an HID into a halogen housing is the light pattern is very inconsistent with much too much light scattered instead of focussed.

Just to clarify, there are two types of housings, and two types of bulbs we are talking about. Reflector (looks like lots of mirrors and you can see the bulb) and projector (looks like a glass ball and you can't see the bulb). They reflect and aim light differently. Then are halogen bulbs and HID bulbs. How light is projected is the job of the assembly, how bright that light is is the job of the bulb.

In general, any bulb can be used in a projector housing because the aiming takes place in front of the light (bulb independent), but you need particular bulbs in reflector housings because the aiming takes place according to the lighting, size, and shape characteristics of the bulb (bulb specific).

The other issue with installing HID's in place of halogens for high beams, is HID's require warm up time to reach full brightness and there lifetime is negatively impacted by on/off cycles. In a typical drive, when you turn on and off the high beams for oncoming cars you will first, not get full high beam brightness, and second, wear out the HID's. That is why you see regular halogens used for high beams on most cars.

HIDs do require a few seconds to achieve full brightness - this is why they are illegal in the US as Federal regs dictate high beams must be instant on. That is why some cars use special HIDs with motorized shields, but most just use two bulbs with a halogen for high beams because its less expensive.

Used to be, an HID bulb cost $250 itself, but now you can buy entire HID kits for $50, so bulb life is not the issue it once was.

 

[Rey]

I started this thread; and have to report that I did research the idea of removing the high beam "cup" and did not get a definitive/authoritative answer from anyone. Whatever, it is moot simply because the cup is large than the bulb hole.
So, I installed a HID kit and am pleased with the result. Incidentally, no relay is required.
I have never heard before that aftermarket HID lights are illegal according to Federal regs. That is a pretty bold statement. Do you have a legal citation? I do think it has long been state law, at least in every state I have lived, that one must dim high beams for oncoming traffic.

 

[Disaster]

I started this thread; and have to report that I did research the idea of removing the high beam "cup" and did not get a definitive/authoritative answer from anyone. Whatever, it is moot simply because the cup is large than the bulb hole.
So, I installed a HID kit and am pleased with the result. Incidentally, no relay is required.
I have never heard before that aftermarket HID lights are illegal according to Federal regs. That is a pretty bold statement. Do you have a legal citation? I do think it has long been state law, at least in every state I have lived, that one must dim high beams for oncoming traffic.

Actually, ANY replacement light, not designed for the vehicle's system is illegal by federal vehicle standards. The most you are allowed to do is change to another more efficient bulb of the same type.

Having said that, there are light modifications that meet the intent of the law, if not the actual law.

However, HID's installed in Halogen reflector housings do neither. The violate the letter of the law and they violate the light pattern requirements of the Federal Motor Vehicle lighting standard. They are unsafe for the driver and anyone with the misfortune of being out at night when the person is driving. They are unsafe because while they seem brighter to the driver, their uneven lighting and overly bright foreground lighting, reduce the driver's ability to see things further ahead of him.

There is plenty of sources that back up this information. You can find them by doing a Google search.

Here are two places to start.

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/Hid/conversions/conversions.html

The candlepower forums have many technical experts from the Automotive lighting field. They have been asked and answered this question time and time again. If you walk through the pages of this forum you will find multiple posts explaining why HID's installed in halogen reflector housings are a bad idea.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=87

Here is one such thread on the forum.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=271238

"HID kits" in halogen-bulb headlamps (any kit, any headlamp, any vehicle) do not work safely or effectively, which is why they are illegal.

Related to high beams there was this thread.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=248314

For high beams you need a concentrated central hot spot and appropriate lateral distribution of light. It's not as difficult a beam to produce because you haven't got glare-control needs conflicting with seeing-light needs, but it is not an uncontrolled beam by any stretch of the imagination. Those "Bi-Xenon H4 kits" really screw up the high beam pattern, not just the low beam pattern.