Heat (pump?)

[ljnelson109]

This isn't a problem or complaint post. I am curious and interested in learning more. I have not had much success in researching the heat system in our GV60. I see in the literature that there is a heat pump. I noticed the first few times that the heat really kicked in that it smelled like a resistance heat source. This doesn't surprise me that there would be a need for resistance heat for backup when the heat pump efficiency tapers off at low temperatures.

So, has anyone found a good source of information on this subject? Do we know if the heat pump is also used to condition the battery? Do we know how many kW the backup resistance heat draws?

Thanks in advance for any information (or direction to any good resources on this subject).

 

[gvjim]

This Munro teardown video covers the subject in detail. It's for an Ionic 5, but the GV60 should be nearly identical. Most of the video discusses thermal management of the battery (primarily via heat pump but there is a resistance heater for that also), but the last 6 minutes or so covers cabin heating/cooling, which is primarily via heat pump but also with a resistance heater to quickly bring the cabin up to temperature. The Munro engineers seemed quite impressed with the system.

This one minute video has a nice computer animation showing how the thermal management components are arranged in the front section of the car. It's a nice companion to the Munro video because it shows where some of the parts are in the car, rather than just spread out over a table.

I also found this web page from 2020 that indicates that Hyundai has been working on heat pumps for a long time and they are quite proud of their efforts.

Hyundai/Kia’s EV Heat Pumps a Benchmark for Other Brands

The Hyundai Kona Electric recently received top range marks at a Norwegian test of EVs in frigid conditions, and the secret to its success is the brand’s high-efficiency heat pump technology.

www.hyundaimotorgroup.com

By the way, I found these pages simply by doing a google search for egmp heat pump hyundai

 

[ljnelson109]

Thanks for doing the legwork. I often forget that there is so much more data on the Ioniq-5 vs our cars.

 

[noremacnova]

Also, you can monitor the cabin heating (and cooling) power demand via the EV screen. It will give you insight into the power demand of the "Climate System" - including the heat pump (which varies, since it's variable power ) as well as resistance cabin heating (which can draw much more power), and also "Battery Care" battery management heating.

 

[noremacnova]

The Munro teardown and video is excellent! It's recommended watching for any techies and engineers out there. One update, though, at least on my 2024 MY, the dual, isolated coolant loops shown on the original Ioniq 5 (one with blue deionized coolant; the other with pink coolant) have now been merged into one type of coolant, with only one reservoir.

 

[Looney100]

I was surprised at how small the battery heater is. Now, I'm not surprised that it has limited effectiveness at low temperature.

 

[ljnelson109]

I finally found the time to watch the videos. I enjoy their report and definitely appreciate the information. I find it interesting their '24s have a merged coolant loop. Can someone with a '23 look to see if they have 2 coolant loops? If not, I wonder why the diversion on the E-GMP platform. I was surprised that Munro wasn't tracking the Genesis version. They repeatedly cited the Ioniq-6 and EV6. I wonder if they know of other deltas that justify avoiding reference to this third variant of the platform.

Either way, I have my answer to the original question. I find it interesting that they created such a complicated system (especially with the 2 coolant loops on the Ioniq-6 tear-down)

 

[noremacnova]

I was surprised at how small the battery heater is. Now, I'm not surprised that it has limited effectiveness at low temperature.

Yes, the battery PCT heater is physically small, but quite powerful. I recall seeing values like 7-8 kW. That’s like having five 1500 W space heaters on!

 

[noremacnova]

I wonder why the diversion on the E-GMP platform.

I’m pretty sure that later model year Ioniq 5 and 6, as well as Kia EV6 have migrated to a single coolant loop as well.

I was surprised that Munro wasn't tracking the Genesis version. They repeatedly cited the Ioniq-6 and EV6. I wonder if they know of other deltas that justify avoiding reference to this third variant of the platform.

It’s possible the Munro video was done before the Genesis was released. Recall the GV60 was at least a year behind the Hyundai/Kia models.

Either way, I have my answer to the original question. I find it interesting that they created such a complicated system (especially with the 2 coolant loops on the Ioniq-6 tear-down)

The “Blue” coolant loop used a very special, and very expensive deionized fluid. I’m speculating that HMC found a way to utilize the regular type of coolant, perhaps through testing, material changes, etc.

 

[gvjim]

I was surprised that Munro wasn't tracking the Genesis version.

If you go to YouTube and search for "munro gv60" you'll find 4 videos, all from about a year ago. But they didn't tear it apart. I imagine that gets expensive to do for car after car after car. Also, YouTube videos aren't their primary business, I think these videos are primarily advertisements for their consulting business. So it could be that someone paid them to do deep dives on the Ionic models.

My recollection (I watched these a year ago) is that Munro complained a lot that Genesis spent too much money making the GV60 too luxurious. As an owner, I disagreed with this opinion.

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[ljnelson109]

My recollection (I watched these a year ago) is that Munro complained a lot that Genesis spent too much money making the GV60 too luxurious. As an owner, I disagreed with this opinion.

I agree. We looked at the Ioniq 5 before driving the GV60. When I decided to buy (a year later) I never considered the Ioniq 5.

 

[Looney100]

Yes, the battery PCT heater is physically small, but quite powerful. I recall seeing values like 7-8 kW. That’s like having five 1500 W space heaters on!

I’ve never seen anything above 5kw. Even at -30C.

If driving in the highway at that temperature, the heater barely raises the battery temperature.

 

[steveinarizona]

My recollection (I watched these a year ago) is that Munro complained a lot that Genesis spent too much money making the GV60 too luxurious. As an owner, I disagreed with this opinion.

That has been a common complaint and I couldn't disagree with it more. The available luxury on the GV60P is what makes it a valuable unicorm (for me). I wanted small size, power and luxury as my first level requirements. At the time, only the GV60P met that requirement. It is not hard to get power and there are many with small size as well. But it is difficult to get luxury without going up in size.

It is interesting to me that a lot of auto critics have complained about auto companies constantly growing their vehicles yet when Genesis went the other way...it was criticized.

It is still pretty much a unicorn. The new Porsche Macan Electric is somewhat similar at a higher price point and a bit larger as well. So...a year and a half into ownership I have not gotten tired of my GV60P and continue to love it. To me, the GV60P was a perfect fit: I think in a somewhat heavy electric car horsepower in the 300s is a tad low and in the 500s is for me excessive (I don't track a car). So the GV60P with HP in the 400s was perfect for me. As I have reported in other threads, the one change that I made, and every time I drive it I appreciate the change, is to switch out the Primacy AS tires for Michelin Pilot Sport 4S HL rated tires. Now it is not only powerful but a great handling car. Yes, it is noisier and gets less range and if those are important consideration to someone, don't make the change. But if, like me, handling is much more important, I recommend the change. Not inexpensive but even after spending $2500K on tires, it is still considerably less expensive than a comparably equipped Macan.

 

[kgr11]

If you go to YouTube and search for "munro gv60" you'll find 4 videos, all from about a year ago. But they didn't tear it apart. I imagine that gets expensive to do for car after car after car. Also, YouTube videos aren't their primary business, I think these videos are primarily advertisements for their consulting business. So it could be that someone paid them to do deep dives on the Ionic models.

My recollection (I watched these a year ago) is that Munro complained a lot that Genesis spent too much money making the GV60 too luxurious. As an owner, I disagreed with this opinion.

I recall that he was dinging them for providing buttons instead of everything touch screen (because cost cutting is the only thing that matters to him)... sorry, strong disagreement there.

 

[steveinarizona]

I recall that he was dinging them for providing buttons instead of everything touch screen (because cost cutting is the only thing that matters to him)... sorry, strong disagreement there.

Agree 1,000%. I could buy this argument if it were an Ionic 5 or Kia EV6 (mainstream vehicles) but not for a luxury vehicle. The buttons and switches were one of the key reasons I purchased the GV60P.

The other day I was walking by the Polestar showroom and looked at the Polestar 3. I thought: this looks pretty good. So out of curiosity I went in and looked in the driver's window. Everything on the tablet. I walked back out and thought "this is not the way a luxury car should be equipped and not something I would ever buy".

 

[Looney100]

How cheaply a car can be manufactured is not the primary criteria upon which to judge its quality.

 

[ljnelson109]

How cheaply a car can be manufactured is not the primary criteria upon which to judge its quality.

I have only seen a few of their videos, but from what I gather that is part of the "service" that Munro sells. So, while I agree with you as a consumer. Analyzing opportunities to deliver the same level of reliability for less money is exactly what Munro engineers are being paid to do.

Time and time again, auto manufacturers have been burned by this engineering requirement. They make choices to save $.20 per part with a large mass production saving that come back and require a recall. They identify a safety problem and calculate how much the lawsuits will cost vs. the cost of a mass recall/replace initiative. There is big money in these calculations.

 

[Looney100]

I think there are two very different things at play, here.
One is efficiency of materials and process - which I completely agree with. I work for a large multinational, and anytime we do something it costs us a substantial premium because we over-engineer and build everything - which we’d be wise to find ways to avoid.
It’s a while other ballgame for a manufacturer to not provide features that customers care about in the name of cost savings, because those consumers will either pay less for your vehicle because of the lack of that feature, or move to a competitor that provides the desired feature.

 

[ljnelson109]

We are on the same page. But Munro's videos are always going to lean towards cost savings. That is what they are trying to deliver to their customers. I doubt that they think those comments are going to change how Genesis decides what features to include. They are just hoping that they get hired to offer ways to cut costs. I bet that the engineers who design these things resent people like Munro trying to be a Monday morning quarterback.

That said, as discussed in the letter to Genesis thread, I have yet to find a car that is equipped exactly as I would have done it if I was given a blank sheet of paper. It is hard to mass produce things and make everyone happy.

 

[kgr11]

We are on the same page. But Munro's videos are always going to lean towards cost savings. That is what they are trying to deliver to their customers. I doubt that they think those comments are going to change how Genesis decides what features to include. They are just hoping that they get hired to offer ways to cut costs. I bet that the engineers who design these things resent people like Munro trying to be a Monday morning quarterback.

That said, as discussed in the letter to Genesis thread, I have yet to find a car that is equipped exactly as I would have done it if I was given a blank sheet of paper. It is hard to mass produce things and make everyone happy.

I admire a car maker who dares to be different... Yea it will cost an extra $X per car but look at all the touchscreen-only hating customers we can attract because nobody else is doing it... Didn't they add more buttons to the ioniq 5 refresh?