Early 2012 R-Spec reviews

[tonygxp]

Hyundai specifically claimed that they changed the suspension for 2012. Also, I believe that the base Genesis with 17" tires still has Dunlops (not 100% sure).

can you link to that article? do you know what they claim to have changed or are they not saying?

 

[Mark_888]

can you link to that article? do you know what they claim to have changed or are they not saying?

Not sure why you are in denial on this (do you have 2011 inventory to sell?):

CHASSIS REFINEMENT FOR 3.8 AND 4.6 MODELS

Always seeking to enhance the Genesis driving experience, Hyundai engineers have made further refinements to the 3.8 and 4.6 model suspension damping calibrations. These precise adjustments serve to minimize the traditional compromises between handling precision and ride comfort. In addition, body roll control for the 3.8 model is enhanced, with the rear stabilizer bar diameter increasing from 17 mm to 18 mm.
http://www.hyundainews.com/Media_Kits/2012_Models/Genesis/Press_Release.asp

When the 2010 press release was posted on this forum with similar mention of the suspension changes, delears got so upset that within 2 days they press release was changed to expunge any mention of the 2010 suspension changes. I would not be surprised if it happens again.

 

[037]

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...ww.insideline.com/hyundai/ge...and-video.html

 

[Mark_888]

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...ww.insideline.com/hyundai/ge...and-video.html

It's not clear if the comments about suspension are relative to other Genesis 2012 models (non-R-Spec) or relative to 2011 model. I suspect it is relative to other 2012 Genesis models.

 

[Glashub]

It seems suspension and steering are the most difficult engineering tricks to master. The Germans have mastered it. The Japanese have not but are getting closer. The Koreans have a ways to go. The Hyundai, Kia and Daewoo brands have always been derided for their ride.

 

[YEH]

^ The Germans, yeah (aside from BMW's hackjob w/ the 1st gen X3), but the Japanese - well, Infiniti? Not so much.

The ride quality borders on harsh, the seats begin to feel inhospitable after a couple hundred miles, and there’s persistent mechanical noise. Road noise is transmitted by the suspension and is particularly loud in the rear cabin.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/10q3/2011_infiniti_m56_sport-long-term_road_test_update

How about the ride? No way, certainly not at this price point.

This isn't about me thinking a luxury car should waft down the road like a '65 Cadillac with marshmallow pumped into the springs. No, the M56 doesn't absorb impacts with the sophistication of a proper $50,000 luxury sedan. It hits a bump and it feels like the giant wheels are smacking against it, sending jittery vibrations throughout the car. The M56 Sport model only exaggerates this to the point of being maddening. In contrast, the 5 Series or E-Class feel like they are mashing those bumps into submission while keeping its body motions in check. "I am German, I vill crrrush you!"

http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2011/01/2011-infiniti-m56-a-suitably-luxurious-ride-nope.html

Tho, of course, there's always a diff. opinion.

For this comparison, we'd have liked the rear-wheel-drive car equipped with the sport package and those sinister 20-inch wheels, since our tester's flaccid suspension killed any sporting intentions. To blunt criticism of the old M's harsh ride, Infiniti went soft and dialed in too much rebound. It's no help on the highway, where the M's body floats over dips and bumps, the steering numb to the road surface.

http://www.boston.com/cars/newsandreviews/overdrive/2010/11/luxury_v-8_midsizers_bmw_550i.html

 

[YEH]

The thing is, I don't know why Hyundai just doesn't have their engineers in Australia do the suspension settings - the Aussies seem to really know how to tune suspensions.

The good news is Hyundai has absolutely nailed it with the new Elantra, with all the suspension testing and tuning carried out in Australia. After a couple of hundred kilometres driving all three trim levels and both transmission options, I’m pleased to report the ride and handling has been well and truly sorted on the Elantra, to the point where it’s up there with anything from Europe in the same segment and price point.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/125134/2012-hyundai-elantra-review/

The Sonata/i45 was blasted for its suspension tuning, but Hyundai didn't have its Aussie engineers do it like what Kia had done for the Optima.

The Hyundai i45 was never praised for its ride and handling so one would naturally expect its non-identical twin brother to behave in the same way. But as we’ve come to know of non-identical twins, they can have very little in common at times.

As with the Sportage last year, Kia paid extra attention to fine tuning Australian delivered Optimas for our roads. Kia Australia says it conducted months of suspension tuning (even getting an engineer from Sachs – the people who supply the suspension parts) before finalising the car’s settings. If that means bugger all to you, just be happy to know the Optima handles rather well. Around the twisty mountain roads of rural Victoria, one can begin to enjoy what the Optima has to offer.

To put the Optima’s ride and handling into perspective, it’s no all-wheel-drive Suzuki Kizashi or Subaru Liberty, both of which are class-leaders when it comes to cornering. In saying that, it’s still a damn fun thing to punt around in. Kia Australia has upgraded the front and rear brakes and given the Optima as much chance as possible to appeal to a new target audience.

Back to back with a Subaru Liberty or a Suzuki Kizashi, you’d be hard pressed to tell the difference around town or even around a few bends. But if the world was to end in 2012 and the only way you could stay alive was to drive up a twisty mountain road at maximum speed, you’d still rather be in an all-wheel drive Liberty/Kizashi. For every other situation, the Optima is a standout performer.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/100315/kia-optima-review/

 

[Mark_888]

The thing is, I don't know why Hyundai just doesn't have their engineers in Australia do the suspension settings - the Aussies seem to really know how to tune suspensions.

Hyundai/Kia has a fairly elaborate ($30 million) Design and Research Center in Southern California, and very sophisticated proving ground test facility (which is they rent out to other automakers).
http://www.hyundaiusa.com/about-hyundai/our-company/

The Genesis is not even sold in Australia (or AFAIK in any country where they drive on the left). Also, the Genesis suspension is different for North American models than those sold elsewhere (Korea, Middle East, Russia, etc.). Seems like it would just be easier to hire people in California that know what they are doing (from a marketing and design perspective). Don’t forget that the stiff Genesis suspension was mandated by the Marketing people to appease the automotive press (who just test drive cars for fun, but don’t ever buy them).

Regarding the Elantra, I don't even know if the suspension is the same in Australia as it is in North America Elantra.

 

[YEH]

^ Yes, I know, but irrespective of Hyundai's proving grounds in Cali, the point being is that the Aussie engineers seem to know how to tune suspensions better than their American counterparts (even the Pontiac G8, aka Holden Commodore, was regarded as having better handling and a more Euro-feel suspension than the smaller CTS).

And just b/c the Genesis isn't sold in Australia doesn't mean that the suspension settings can't be calibrated there; many vehicles sold only in Europe or elsewhere are tested in the States for hot-climate testing (California desert).

The suspension setting on the AU Elantra is diff. from the USDM Elantra.

 

[Mark_888]

^ Yes, I know, but irrespective of Hyundai's proving grounds in Cali, the point being is that the Aussie engineers seem to know how to tune suspensions better than their American counterparts (even the Pontiac G8, aka Holden Commodore, was regarded as having better handling and a more Euro-feel suspension than the smaller CTS).

And just b/c the Genesis isn't sold in Australia doesn't mean that the suspension settings can't be calibrated there; many vehicles sold only in Europe or elsewhere are tested in the States for hot-climate testing (California desert).

The suspension setting on the AU Elantra is diff. from the USDM Elantra.

You don't move engineering half-way around the world just because they have one or two better suspension engineers over there. You hire better engineers where you need them, or move them from Australia to California (at least on short term assignment).

Besides, I think you missed my other main point. The marketing people demanded a stiff suspension on the North American models to appease the automotive press. This has been their strategy from day 1. It's not just a matter of engineering competence.

Now with the 2012 models, the R-Spec has been released to appease the automotive press that wants a very stiff ride, so Hyundai could (just coincidently at the same time) release the 3.8 and 4.6 with more comfortable ride. They knew "how" to make a more comfortable ride all the time, they just didn't want to until 2012. Don't forget that the Korean Genesis was never as stiff as the North American version (both Korean base model and the optional air suspension).

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[YEH]

^ Who said anything about moving engineering half-way around the world?

What's the diff. btwn having Aussie engineers do the final calibrating as opposed to US engineers doing the final calibrating for the US market (most of the engineering being done in Korea)?

Heck, the Hyundai Scoupe had a suspension tuned by Lotus - that didn't mean that Lotus engineers had to move to Korea.

And no, I've gotten you main point long ago (since you keep repeating it; and really, it's not a difficult point to get).

You, otoh, seem to keep overlooking that having a "firm" suspension doesn't have to = harsh ride.

BMWs have firm suspensions and they aren't harsh (for the most part); Porsches are even more firm.

You keep blaming marketing for wanting to "appease" the auto scribes when auto scribes have long shown they they show little mercy for harsh rides; often picking a trim of a model w/ a softer suspension setting and smaller wheels for a more comfortable ride over the crappy roads that they have to drive over.

You also keep saying that the Hyundai released the R-Spec to appease the auto scribes (yeah, how's that working out?) so that they can go "softer" on the 3.8 and 4.6.

That's purely conjecture on your part since there's no evidence that Hyundai made the suspension on the 3.8 and 4.6 "less firm."

More compliant, yeah, but that's not the same as less firm (also, you were the one who stated that you weren't sure if the suspension on the R-Spec was even firmer than on the pre-2012s, but that Hyundai released the R-Spec just so that they can go softer on the 3.8 and 4.6, when that isn't the case).

 

[gurekku]

Novel R-Spec idea

With the 2012 3.8 V6 now imbued with direct injection, how cool would it be to have an R-spec version available with this engine, but turbocharged? I drive a Sonata SE 2.0 turbo, and am impressed with both the power and economy that Hyundai has wrung out of that little 4-cylinder. If they made the same move with their V-6, we'd have an R-spec Genesis sedan with the same (or greater) horsepower and torque as the new 5.0 V-8, but with less weight and more economy. Add in all-wheel drive and...well, just dreaming, I guess.

 

[Mark_888]

Who said anything about moving engineering half-way around the world?

What's the diff. btwn having Aussie engineers do the final calibrating as opposed to US engineers doing the final calibrating for the US market (most of the engineering being done in Korea)?

You apparently think that suspension engineers work in a vacuum and just do whatever they think is right. Having personally discussed the Genesis suspension with John Krafcik in a chat room, and heard him discuss it many times in the media, I am quite sure that marketing dictates, test drives, and approves the suspension changes for the North American market. John Krafcik said he personally test drove and approved the 2010 suspension changes, and I suspect he did the same for 2009 and 2012. (See the Car and Driver video review of the 2009 Genesis where Krafcik discusses the "marketing" goals of the 2009 suspension.

You, otoh, seem to keep overlooking that having a "firm" suspension doesn't have to = harsh ride.

BMWs have firm suspensions and they aren't harsh (for the most part); Porsches are even more firm.

I have been saying that for a long time. Glad you finally agree. But it just doesn't make that much sense to ship a bunch of cars over to Australia just becasue they hired the wrong people in California to tune the North American suspension. Hyundai build a $30 million desing facility in California to do that, with a state of the art test track. Cheaper to send the Australian suspension experts over to California. But we both agree (aparently) that they had the wrong people working on it.

You keep blaming marketing for wanting to "appease" the auto scribes when auto scribes have long shown they they show little mercy for harsh rides; often picking a trim of a model w/ a softer suspension setting and smaller wheels for a more comfortable ride over the crappy roads that they have to drive over.

You also keep saying that the Hyundai released the R-Spec to appease the auto scribes (yeah, how's that working out?) so that they can go "softer" on the 3.8 and 4.6.

That's purely conjecture on your part since there's no evidence that Hyundai made the suspension on the 3.8 and 4.6 "less firm."

More compliant, yeah, but that's not the same as less firm (also, you were the one who stated that you weren't sure if the suspension on the R-Spec was even firmer than on the pre-2012s, but that Hyundai released the R-Spec just so that they can go softer on the 3.8 and 4.6, when that isn't the case).

I completely agree if you are saying that Hyundai made a mistake in the tuning of the 2009 suspension (and I guess the 2010 did not go far enough). As you are tired of me saying, I think it was a combination of not enough time, not good enough engineering, marketing pressure, and deadlines as to why it took them so long (until 2012) to get it right.

What I said may not sound logical to you, and in hindsight was a mistake on the part of Hyundai Motors America, but I think I accurately described what HMA marketing execs were thinking when they approved the 2009 and 2010 suspensions. Personally, I think if they had the 2012 suspension from day one (or included the Korean air suspension even if the price had to be increased) they would have sold 2-3 times the number of Genesis sedans than they have sold. But don't forget, that they won the 2009 Car of the Year award at the Detroit auto show, with a less than steller suspension, so HMA might just claim that their strategy was correct.

 

[YEH]

You apparently think that suspension engineers work in a vacuum and just do whatever they think is right. Having personally discussed the Genesis suspension with John Krafcik in a chat room, and heard him discuss it many times in the media, I am quite sure that marketing dictates, test drives, and approves the suspension changes for the North American market. John Krafcik said he personally test drove and approved the 2010 suspension changes, and I suspect he did the same for 2009 and 2012. (See the Car and Driver video review of the 2009 Genesis where Krafcik discusses the "marketing" goals of the 2009 suspension.

Yeah, it would be sooo difficult for him to test driver/approve the suspension setting changes done by Aussie engineers.

When Car Advice went to Korea to test out the Veloster - they tried diff. Velosters; some w/ the KDM suspension settings, others w/ USDM settings.

You don't think Krafcik is aware of the complaints about the less than total compliant ride of the Genesis?

And being the car buff that he is, Krafcik would also appreciate a better handling ride to go along with the smoother ride.

I have been saying that for a long time. Glad you finally agree. But it just doesn't make that much sense to ship a bunch of cars over to Australia just becasue they hired the wrong people in California to tune the North American suspension. Hyundai build a $30 million desing facility in California to do that, with a state of the art test track. Cheaper to send the Australian suspension experts over to California. But we both agree (aparently) that they had the wrong people working on it.

Why would it matter about shipping a few more cars to Australia (btw, Australia is much closer to Korea than the US) when Hyundai ships boatloads to Australia anyway?

The i40 Touring has been spotted testing in the US and there's no indication yet that it get the greenlight to be sold in the US (like I stated before, many vehicles that never get sold in the US get tested here due to availability of varying climate conditions).

And yeah, I'm sure it'll be cheaper to send a bunch of Aussie engineers over to the US for months rather than ship a few cars to Australia (from Korea).

(Again, do you really think Lotus engineers moved to Korea when they tuned the Scoupe?)

What I said may not sound logical to you, and in hindsight was a mistake on the part of Hyundai Motors America, but I think I accurately described what HMA marketing execs were thinking when they approved the 2009 and 2010 suspensions. Personally, I think if they had the 2012 suspension from day one (or included the Korean air suspension even if the price had to be increased) they would have sold 2-3 times the number of Genesis sedans than they have sold. But don't forget, that they won the 2009 Car of the Year award at the Detroit auto show, with a less than steller suspension, so HMA might just claim that their strategy was correct.

Most of the reviews of the 2009 Genesis stated that Genesis wasn't exactly a "sports sedan" - and more of a luxo conmfort cruiser with a bit of sport.

The fact that it had an unsettled ride was just due to poor suspension calibration and not b/c Hyundai was going for a sports sedan ride.

The MT review pretty much sums it up.

The finished product surprised us on the real-world blacktop. The R-Spec was composed in and out of corners and wore its 4199 pounds well. Compared to the 4.6, excessive body lean is nearly cured in the 5.0, which pushes when spurred aggressively (thank its burliness and 54/46 front/rear weight distribution). Although weighty and more communicative, the steering still lacks the directness of some of its German rivals.

Its stiffer ride will have you thinking "sports car," not "luxury sedan." Off smooth paths, the suspension is confused and bouncy at times, yet capable of absorbing mountainous acne. A week's worth of passengers complained not once -- just don't expect the Genesis' usual Lay-Z-Boy ride anymore.

 

[Mark_888]

Yeah, it would be sooo difficult for him to test driver/approve the suspension setting changes done by Aussie engineers.

When Car Advice went to Korea to test out the Veloster - they tried diff. Velosters; some w/ the KDM suspension settings, others w/ USDM settings.

You don't think Krafcik is aware of the complaints about the less than total compliant ride of the Genesis?

And being the car buff that he is, Krafcik would also appreciate a better handling ride to go along with the smoother ride.

Why would it matter about shipping a few more cars to Australia (btw, Australia is much closer to Korea than the US) when Hyundai ships boatloads to Australia anyway?

Krafcik has been aware of the suspension issue since his friend (and editor-in-chief of Car and Driver) lectured him about it in the Car and Driver video review (posted many times on this site). For the 2010 changes (apparently still too stiff for some) he told me that he personally test drove a 2010 model and he was satisfied with the 2010 suspension changes (this was in early 2009). So I don't know exactly what is going on inside his mind.

All this arguing about whether the suspension should be tuned in Austrailia or the US is ridiculous. If Krafcik wanted to get it done right he would have figured out how to do it in Korea, the US, or in Australia (which I still think is idiotic).

BTW, they do not ship Genesis to Australia, and they do not sell them there (as I mentioned previously). I don't know why you are so obessesed with Austrailia just based on a few magizine articles regarding the Elantra suspension (which may be different in AU than in US anyway, for all we know).

 

[YEH]

^ Uhh, I'm not talking about the Genesis currently being shipped to Australia, but there are currently boatloads of Hyunda vehicles being shipped there.

It wouldn't take much to add a few Genesis models to the shipping lot.

GM let's its Holden unit do the suspension calibration for much of the world market for a no. of its models, including the new Malibu.

The Australian market Cruze had its suspension reworked by Holden even tho it was initially imported from Korea.

Toyota Australaia did the calibration for the Camry in much of the world market, including for the Camry SE that is sold in the US.

Really, this isn't going anywhere, so let's just agree to disagree.

 

[Mark_888]

^ Uhh, I'm not talking about the Genesis currently being shipped to Australia, but there are currently boatloads of Hyunda vehicles being shipped there.

It wouldn't take much to add a few Genesis models to the shipping lot.

GM let's its Holden unit do the suspension calibration for much of the world market for a no. of its models, including the new Malibu.

The Australian market Cruze had its suspension reworked by Holden even tho it was initially imported from Korea.

Toyota Australaia did the calibration for the Camry in much of the world market, including for the Camry SE that is sold in the US.

Really, this isn't going anywhere, so let's just agree to disagree.

Yes, why don't you send a note to your cronies at Hyundai and see what they say.