GDI reliability

[Junkie49]

Hey
Was wondering for quite a while about this since Hyundai genesis line is starting to change the engine into 3.8 and 5.0 as GDI only. I never had GDI engine or diesel car so really limited by information heard from others. If any of you have in depth knowledge about this technology please share. Will there be any additional problems in the long run? Any previous GDI engines that showed consistant reliability problems? Does the oil change have to be done frequently like diesel cars? What does average Joe have to know before he/she sets foot on GDI engine cars?(except the fact you get small mpg boost)

If you combine previous GDI engine reliability, what are your thoughts,though speculative, about added maintenence and precautions?

 

[NYCGPS]

Hey
Was wondering for quite a while about this since Hyundai genesis line is starting to change the engine into 3.8 and 5.0 as GDI only. I never had GDI engine or diesel car so really limited by information heard from others. If any of you have in depth knowledge about this technology please share. Will there be any additional problems in the long run? Any previous GDI engines that showed consistant reliability problems? Does the oil change have to be done frequently like diesel cars? What does average Joe have to know before he/she sets foot on GDI engine cars?(except the fact you get small mpg boost)

If you combine previous GDI engine reliability, what are your thoughts,though speculative, about added maintenence and precautions?

GDI is just a fancier name for "Direct Injection"

Direct Injection is not new and it has been used extensively on lots of modern engines. Obviously it means the fuel is directly injected into the combustion chamber(not the old way which sprays fuel in the intake runner) to get more precises tuning and better fuel economy.

The only thing you need to worry about is carbon build up, cuz there are study shows that DI(GDI) engines are more prone to carbon build up, this is also why you should use Real Synthetic oil (Grp IV or V oil) to help fight carbon deposits.

Other than that, not much to worry about (assume the tuning is safe and there are no known problem with the engine)

With Good Synthetic oil you should be able to go 5-7.5 K oil change. Notice : most Mobil1 and Castrol "Synthetic" oil is not as Synthetic as you think it might be. but that's a whole other topic.

 

[Mark_888]

Notice : most Mobil1 and Castrol "Synthetic" oil is not as Synthetic as you think it might be. but that's a whole other topic.

What? Catrol Syntec is a Group III oil, but Mobil 1 has substantial Group IV components (with some Group III in some formulations). There is a difference.

 

[amdmaxx]

Gasoline Direct Injection to be exact.

GDI is just a fancier name for "Direct Injection"

 

[YEH]

Unlike in earlier GDI engines from the Germans and Japanese - the domestic GDI engines and the newer engines from foreign makes seem to have largely solved the carbon build-up issue.

All Engines Not Designed Equally
Many automakers’ gasoline DI engines do not appear to exhibit any carbon build-up issues at all, however. Digging into online threads about Cadillac’s 3.6-liter DI V6 in its popular CTS lineup does reveal some owner concerns about carbon build-up, but it’s difficult to find even a single report that any build-up has actually occurred – a record that is notable considering that Cadillac has sold more than 200,000 CTS models with DI V6s (Audi sold fewer than 2,000 RS 4s in the US during its two-year sales run).

Haider, GM’s V6 assistant chief engineer, explained how GM has designed its DI engines to combat carbon buildup: “We maintain great engine function and performance in our all our DI engines through an optimization strategy with our valve events,” he said. “Our intake-cam timing, injector targeting and timing of the injection events are optimized to avoid direct fuel contact on the intake valves. This strategy keeps smoke and soot formation to an absolute minimum, which in turn prevents excessive deposit formation.”

At the Detroit Auto Show in January, Ford was confident enough about its popular 3.5 liter EcoBoost direct-injection V6 to have technicians tear down an example engine that had accumulated the equivalent of 160,000 miles through an intentionally abusive regimen of log dragging, high-speed towing and desert racing. When they opened it up before a live audience, they found some light carbon deposits on the valves and pistons, but not enough to affect performance. In fact, the engine showed a loss of just one horsepower afterwards – roughly what Boyadjiev’s RS 4 engine lost every 500 miles.

http://www.autoobserver.com/2011/06/direct-injection-fouls-some-early-adopters.html

 

[NYCGPS]

What? Catrol Syntec is a Group III oil, but Mobil 1 has substantial Group IV components (with some Group III in some formulations). There is a difference.

Most Castrol Syntec line is Grp III oil, the (probably) only exception is the 0w weight one. Which is their German Blend oil.

Mobil1 used to be Grp IV that is correct. Noticed : Used to be.

After they lost the case to BP, most of their base stock changed, that's one of the way to stay competitive(read:cheaper) that's also the reason why you can get Mobil1 so cheap these days.

They still have some real deal tho, like the 0w40. That's the only way they can get the BMW certification.

I mean they're not bad oil, but I wouldn't pay a Real Synthetic 5w30 price for Mobil1 or Castrol Syntec oil's 5w30.

Unlike in earlier GDI engines from the Germans and Japanese - the domestic GDI engines and the newer engines from foreign makes seem to have largely solved the carbon build-up issue.

http://www.autoobserver.com/2011/06/direct-injection-fouls-some-early-adopters.html

I read that a while ago. the solution sounds promising, but long term effect is still unknown.

Either way, a better oil is better for the engine, right ?

 

[Mark_888]

Most Castrol Syntec line is Grp III oil, the (probably) only exception is the 0w weight one. Which is their German Blend oil.

You mean the "European Formula" 0 weight, agreed. Mobil 1 0W-40 sold in US is also "European Formula". But that does not necessarily make it better than non-European Formula oils, because they do not meet Energy Saver standards and have other differences related to EU pollution laws (such as reduced levels of phosophorus, which is beneficial to engines).

Mobil1 used to be Grp IV that is correct. Noticed : Used to be.

You are getting a little too black/white here. Mobil 1 is not 100% Group III (as is Castrol Syntec), since Mobil 1 does have Group IV components, although not 100%.

I have read that one of the other reasons for using synthetic oil in GDI engine is that these engines are somewhat prone to gasoline dilution in the oil, and synthetic can stand up to that situation better than conventional.

 

[NYCGPS]

You mean the "European Formula" 0 weight, agreed. Mobil 1 0W-40 sold in US is also "European Formula". But that does not necessarily make it better than non-European Formula oils, because they do not meet Energy Saver standards and have other differences related to EU pollution laws (such as reduced levels of phosophorus, which is beneficial to engines).

meeting whatever Standard does not mean the oil is any worst/better than those that don't meet them.

For example is the SN/SM/SL standard. Does SL standard mean its worst than SN/SM ? Of course not, they just changed the formula to meet the standard. Honestly speaking I will use SL oil over SN/SM oil anyday for the life of my engine.

You are getting a little too black/white here. Mobil 1 is not 100% Group III (as is Castrol Syntec), since Mobil 1 does have Group IV components, although not 100%.

I have read that one of the other reasons for using synthetic oil in GDI engine is that these engines are somewhat prone to gasoline dilution in the oil, and synthetic can stand up to that situation better than conventional.

I never said they're 100% Grp III. Just saying most of them shouldn't be considered as "real" Synthetic with a "real" synthetic's price tag. It's US lawmakers said they're Synthetic. In European countries you can't call most of them Synthetic.

If it's Castrol I rather get their GTX oil

If it's Mobil I would get their Mobil Clean.

but again my point is that if Red line sells their 5w30 @ 8 bux each and Mobil1 cost 8 or even 7 bux. I will still take Red Line over Mobil1. Mobil1/Castrol are not bad oil; just not worth their price (tag)

 

[Junkie49]

Just checked this out
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4cimmwPIVI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4cimmwPIVI[/ame]
Apparantly thats 3.3L V6 on Genesis in Korea but it shouldn't be much different between this and our 3.8,5.0.
I noticed that they spray the fuel twice when I checked other GDI engines do only once. Anyone know why they do that?

Also sorry if I sound stupid but what does engine oil have to do with carbon buildup? doesn't it build up inside the cylinder or exhaust valve?

Thanks for your info.

 

[Mark_888]

meeting whatever Standard does not mean the oil is any worst/better than those that don't meet them.
For example is the SN/SM/SL standard. Does SL standard mean its worst than SN/SM ? Of course not, they just changed the formula to meet the standard. Honestly speaking I will use SL oil over SN/SM oil anyday for the life of my engine.
I never said they're 100% Grp III. Just saying most of them shouldn't be considered as "real" Synthetic with a "real" synthetic's price tag. It's US lawmakers said they're Synthetic. In European countries you can't call most of them Synthetic.

We agree on that last point. But regarding the first point, even though European Formula “Synthetic” Oils are required to be Group IV or above, they also are required to have reduced levels of phosphorus, and reduced levels of phosphorous is detrimental to engines (although it is better for the environment). And the European oils are expected to last 15,000 miles, but that does not actually make the oil better than an oil not designed for that long of a change interval if one changes the oil more often. And as previously noted, the European Formula oils are not Engery Saving "Starburst" certified for saving gasoline (but they do save on motor oil since they are designed to last 15,000 miles).

If it's Castrol I rather get their GTX oil. If it's Mobil I would get their Mobil Clean.

Whoa!! GTX and Mobil Clean 5000 are mostly Group II (maybe a bit of Group III). Castrol Syntec is 95% Group III, and Mobil 1 is about 30-50% Group III and rest Group IV. There are clear differences in these oils, and to say you would only use 100% Group IV or Group II is silly. Castrol Syntec is clearly better than GTX and Mobil 1 is clearly better than Mobil Clean 5000.

but again my point is that if Red line sells their 5w30 @ 8 bux each and Mobil1 cost 8 or even 7 bux. I will still take Red Line over Mobil1. Mobil1/Castrol are not bad oil; just not worth their price (tag)

If you think Red Line is 100% Group IV/V I believe that you are mistaken. You probably spend too much time reading that cesspool of information called "Bob's the oil guy" or similar forums, which are almost 100% based on rumor, innuendo, and false information planted by competitors (mostly from Amsoil dealers). Many independent "boutique" oil companies like Red Line purchase their synthetic base stock from Mobil (who operates one the largest synthetic oil production facilities in the world located near Beaumont TX), so there is no way that a boutique oil company can match prices with a major distributor like ExxonMobil or BP(Castrol).

______________________________

Help support this site so it can continue supporting you!

 

[Mark_888]

Also sorry if I sound stupid but what does engine oil have to do with carbon buildup? doesn't it build up inside the cylinder or exhaust valve?

Prior to this thread, I have only heard about using synthetic oil because of gas dilution of the oil (which is a slight tendancy of most DI). However, synthetic oils do reduce deposits inside of engines (but I don't know anything about the relation of such deposits and DI).

 

[Mark_888]

Apparantly thats 3.3L V6 on Genesis in Korea but it shouldn't be much different between this and our 3.8,5.0.

The Korean Genesis is available with 3.3 or 3.8 V6 (both called Lamda), in addition to the V8 (4.6 and 5.0 are both Tau).

 

[NYCGPS]

We agree on that last point. But regarding the first point, even though European Formula “Synthetic” Oils are required to be Group IV or above, they also are required to have reduced levels of phosphorus, and reduced levels of phosphorous is detrimental to engines (although it is better for the environment). And the European oils are expected to last 15,000 miles, but that does not actually make the oil better than an oil not designed for that long of a change interval if one changes the oil more often. And as previously noted, the European Formula oils are not Engery Saving "Starburst" certified for saving gasoline (but they do save on motor oil since they are designed to last 15,000 miles).

I'm not sure if I want to go for 15K oil changes (which explains why in Euro car kept on having problems!) but again Certification is just ... certification

When you have too much of an addictive, you still going to fail for that certification. Which is what is happening to a lot of oil these days.

Whoa!! GTX and Mobil Clean 5000 are mostly Group II (maybe a bit of Group III). Castrol Syntec is 95% Group III, and Mobil 1 is about 30-50% Group III and rest Group IV. There are clear differences in these oils, and to say you would only use 100% Group IV or Group II is silly. Castrol Syntec is clearly better than GTX and Mobil 1 is clearly better than Mobil Clean 5000.

Castrol GTX used to be Grp III, not sure if they change it now cuz I haven't use it for a LONNnnnnng While.

Syntec is better than GTX but for most people GTX is what they want (CHEAP!)

Again, if it's the same price(or close), I will take other good brand over Syntec/Mobil1 anyday.

If you think Red Line is 100% Group IV/V I believe that you are mistaken. You probably spend too much time reading that cesspool of information called "Bob's the oil guy" or similar forums, which are almost 100% based on rumor, innuendo, and false information planted by competitors (mostly from Amsoil dealers). Many independent "boutique" oil companies like Red Line purchase their synthetic base stock from Mobil (who operates one the largest synthetic oil production facilities in the world located near Beaumont TX), so there is no way that a boutique oil company can match prices with a major distributor like ExxonMobil or BP(Castrol).

BITOG is loaded with rumors and yep Amsoil dealers hahahaa. That's why I don't even go there.

Amsoil is not bad but I hate their network/dealers/gangs?(lol)

I know Red Line Probably got their oil from one of the big names (for base stock) but base stock is one thing, the stuff they're adding (additives) is as important as the base stock. IMO Red Line and Eneos are the best oil right now nothing else even come close to it.

Anyway, Everybody should change their oil at the recommended interval(or a bit sooner) with a good name brand Synthetic oil should be able to get many many happy miles out of their Genesis

 

[ctrcbob]

All these oil questions and answers can be found in:

www.bobistheoilguy.com then click on forums.

 

[Mark_888]

All these oil questions and answers can be found in:

www.bobistheoilguy.com then click on forums.

Sorry Bob, have to disagree with you there. There may be some correct answers on BITOG, but it would be hard to figure out which ones were correct and which were incorrect answers (especially since IMO the incorrect ones far outnumber the correct ones). I spent quite a long time on that forum before realizing that it is just a rumor mill.

 

[DRS]

Unlike in earlier GDI engines from the Germans and Japanese - the domestic GDI engines and the newer engines from foreign makes seem to have largely solved the carbon build-up issue.



http://www.autoobserver.com/2011/06/direct-injection-fouls-some-early-adopters.html

Yea, you are correct. Too many bigots against domestics, swoon over their off shore idols, and will never consider that Ford and GM are way ahead in many areas. Engines being one of those. You example Ford above is real. And the videos showed that 160k real miles and hours under severe use. Compared to us, was more like 484k miles. And the transmission, and the rest of the truck made it through with flying colors.

The example above, the engine sat on a fixed Dyno for weeks on end at full throttle in addition to the extreme use. All this is on video.

Hyundai should have licensed from Ford their electronics, software and fuel systems. They must not have been able to reverse engineer like they did with the Ford modular V6-V8 system that is the basis for the 3.8 and. 5.0.

I am not complaining. My Genesis 5.0 is amazing. I am not going to be a groupie for offshore, and spit on domestics.

My 2008 King Ranch, and the 2006 Lariat, both have had firmware updates to improve the DI system on the Diesels. Every 6 months they have continual improvement with updates. That is one reason why Ford has been number one in trucks for 40 years. They are not perfect, but they tend to help improve existing trucks on the road. So the working man knows Ford is not just our to make a quick buck. Big time loyalty points.

Yet, this forum has been complaining about the DI black soot issue, Hyundai knows about the issue, and has not updated the firmware to fix this.

Nor have they done anything about the Genesis crappy throttle by wire system and shift by wire issues. The lugging, the NO acceleration in a emergency situation, and other goofy buggy programming.

Hyundai needs to learn from Ford trick folks and take care of what is on the road already. If they want to expand their base and become superior to the other offshore brands. They need to fix these few design issues for the fleet that is in service. You listening Hyundai?

 

[Mark_888]

Hyundai needs to learn from Ford trick folks and take care of what is on the road already. If they want to expand their base and become superior to the other offshore brands. They need to fix these few design issues for the fleet that is in service. You listening Hyundai?

I agree with your sentiment, but Hyundai has never done that. They will not fix the existing fleets, even if they know how to. And even if they fix them in subsequent model years, they will provide no guidance on how to fix the old ones, even if the owners are willing to do it at there own expense.

 

[DRS]

I agree with your sentiment, but Hyundai has never done that. They will not fix the existing fleets, even if they know how to. And even if they fix them in subsequent model years, they will provide no guidance on how to fix the old ones, even if the owners are willing to do it at there own expense.

Yep... Afraid so.. Koreans do not understand loyalty and long term customer service. Make good products, then run.. Same to TV and other electronics. The dealers have to deal with the chaos. Same for the cars. Hyundai is losing market share this year, so is KIA. After climbing when they stepped up their game. Why? They do not out the effort in the branding experience and connection with their customers.

BTW, many if the offshore folks are that way. Some are better. As an example, why Wouk anyone buy a VW or Audi unless they felt like being part of a family. Repairs, poor long term engineering, and overpriced. However, they promote the brand as a connected experience. People believe it.

In the meantime, I will enjoy the great car as it is. As long as info not have to take it in for service all the time.

 

[GJEMD]

The long term issues with GDI is in stop and go city driving. GDI is reliable in sustain low rpm operation like Interstate speed 8th gear < 2000 rpm operation.
Ford and most other factories with major moves to GDI have done sustained speed torture reliability testing. Ford is seeing major warranty issues in 3.5 Eccoboost with intown operation, F150, Flex, Taurus. Power loss from burnt intake valves. There is a Big class action suit against Ford filed in April 2013 on this issue. The theory is with repeated acceleration the far side of the intake valve burns hotter because it is not receiving spray from the direct injector.
The traditional EFI through the intake manifold gives uniform mist at much lower compression ratios. Toyota is developing hybrid injection system with traditional EFI for stop and go and GDI for low rpm open road operation. The final word is not in but I suspect current GDI engines spending alot of time in traffic will burn
intake valves before 100,000 miles. Just my guess. Stay tuned

 

[Medusa]

Us usaa the most expedient remedy is the Italian Tune-up: Bury the tach!