4.6 2011 or 2012

[Gunkk]

Any other opinions on the 2011 vs. the 2012? Am I right in assuming that the ZF 6 speed transmission is slightly better/smoother, or have there been issues with that one as well?

Lastly I would be very interested in any opinions on the suspension improvement, and the difference that you feel it makes in the 2012.

Short answer: Get the 2012.

The '12 suspension is superior. The 8 speed transmission is smoother than the 6 speed. The issues posted in the early '12 model year early posts about the 8 speed, gear hunting, hesitant shifting, etc. were addressed via TCU software updates.

Mine shows none of that and handles spirited driving inputs really well.

 

[Gunkk]

I think the 12 and 11 Lexicon 17 speaker systems are about the same. Some say the 2012 17 speaker system has less bass. Also I think the 6 disc cd changer was deleted in 2012 but who cares, I use a 16gig usb at 320 k and have over 3000 songs on it. If you get a nav update, the dealer has to do it on the tech pkg 17 speaker Lexicon system. The updates for me have gone well and they added info and functions to the nav system. Nav update price is about 300.00 which is about the same cost as Mercedes.

No, the 12 has the same 6-disc changer as the pre-'12 Tech models.

Yes the gen 1.5's ('12 to '14 Tech) audio system has less clarity and dynamic range than the Gen 1.0 ('09 to '11 Tech). The new system at max volume is on par with the old one with the volume at about 20-22.

The amp/pre-amp was dumbed down in the '12 to a) stop the "silent amp bug" and b) reduce likelihood of owners blowing out their <speakers>/<amps>/<eardrums>/<insert favorite target of audio destruction here>. There were a lot of audio, amp, and other head-unit issues in the '09 and '10... much of which caused poor audio system ratings @ consumer reports, and lots-n-lots of posts on this forum.

It's a shame, really. They could have addressed the issues with a much less aggressive de-tuning, and not given up so much of the greatness of the original. It's really the only "downgrade" I've noticed in going from gen 1.0 to gen 1.5.

 

[Rysher8]

I was really starting to lean toward the '11, but your post has me re-thinking again. This is the first time I've heard that the 8 speed is actually smoother than the 6 speed. Do you notice a big difference in the smoothness and responsiveness?

I'm also glad to hear that the gear hunting can be addressed by a software update. Does anyone have experience having that update done and experiencing improvement?

Thanks again for all the insightful responses!

 

[Mark_888]

I was really starting to lean toward the '11, but your post has me re-thinking again. This is the first time I've heard that the 8 speed is actually smoother than the 6 speed. Do you notice a big difference in the smoothness and responsiveness?

I'm also glad to hear that the gear hunting can be addressed by a software update. Does anyone have experience having that update done and experiencing improvement?

Thanks again for all the insightful responses!

Both the 6-speed and 8-speed transmissions are sufficiently smooth. I would not worry about this aspect of the transmission unless there is some problem with a particular transmission in a particular car.

The most important thing I worry about in a transmission is reliability. The 6-speed is proven and reliable design from ZF that is used by several different car manufacturers.

Also, the smother a transmission is, the more difficult it is to make it reliable.

 

[craigt]

Pfft, no streaming music for me, even with unlimited streaming through T-Mobile.

I *only* use a USB stick, storing 320kpbs audio rips. With the quality of the 17 speaker Lexicon, there is a definitely difference in quality between streaming and a high quality rip.

As for bass in the 2012. I can't imagine the 2011 having more bass. With "modern" music, the bass level can't go higher than 7 at high volumes without detracting from sound quality.

 

[craigt]

No, the 12 has the same 6-disc changer as the pre-'12 Tech models.

Yes the gen 1.5's ('12 to '14 Tech) audio system has less clarity and dynamic range than the Gen 1.0 ('09 to '11 Tech). The new system at max volume is on par with the old one with the volume at about 20-22.

The amp/pre-amp was dumbed down in the '12 to a) stop the "silent amp bug" and b) reduce likelihood of owners blowing out their <speakers>/<amps>/<eardrums>/<insert favorite target of audio destruction here>. There were a lot of audio, amp, and other head-unit issues in the '09 and '10... much of which caused poor audio system ratings @ consumer reports, and lots-n-lots of posts on this forum.

It's a shame, really. They could have addressed the issues with a much less aggressive de-tuning, and not given up so much of the greatness of the original. It's really the only "downgrade" I've noticed in going from gen 1.0 to gen 1.5.

This is the first I've heard that the 12-14 audio was "detuned". It is widely known that the Gen 2 Genesis audio was detuned (less bass and volume).

Are you sure about the 12-14? Mine sounds fantastic and can't imagine that, at near full volume, would be equivalent to 20-22 (out of 44) on the 09-11.

 

[Rysher8]

Both the 6-speed and 8-speed transmissions are sufficiently smooth. I would not worry about this aspect of the transmission unless there is some problem with a particular transmission in a particular car.

The most important thing I worry about in a transmission is reliability. The 6-speed is proven and reliable design from ZF that is used by several different car manufacturers.

Also, the smother a transmission is, the more difficult it is to make it reliable.

Mark by smoothness I guess I mean linear acceleration. One thing that I highly, highly value about my V6 Sonata (5 speed) is that if I need to pass on the highway in a tight situation, I get instant access to powerful acceleration as soon as I press down on the gas. The gear change is almost completely unnoticeable, and the tachometer rarely breaks 3.

Does that make sense?

 

[Mark_888]

Mark by smoothness I guess I mean linear acceleration. One thing that I highly, highly value about my V6 Sonata (5 speed) is that if I need to pass on the highway in a tight situation, I get instant access to powerful acceleration as soon as I press down on the gas. The gear change is almost completely unnoticeable, and the tachometer rarely breaks 3.

Does that make sense?

The responsiveness makes sense, but the smother a transmission shifts, the harder it is to make it reliable. But transmissions are a lot smoother now than they were 10-15 years ago.

I personally am not an aggressive driver (to put it mildly), but I have never been bothered by the fact that I can tell when an auto transmission shifts, so long as there is no clunking noise.

 

[Rysher8]

Mark that's fair enough. So I guess my question is which transmission do folks find to be more responsive?

 

[craigt]

Perhaps go drive both and see which one *you* like more.

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[Rysher8]

That is a great call. So far I have only been able to drive the '12 4.6, and thought it was mostly ok, but at times shifted a little hard. I also think that driving a new car takes a bit of getting used to, so I'm more interested in those who drive these on a daily basis than my own first impressions.

 

[craigt]

The 8 speed should not be shifting hard. If anything, people think it's a little too soft/smooth. Personally, I love the way it shifts when accelerating - very linear during WOT.

My only complaint is the "dead pedal" issue (search the forum for it).

 

[Rysher8]

The 8 speed should not be shifting hard. If anything, people think it's a little too soft/smooth. Personally, I love the way it shifts when accelerating - very linear during WOT.

My only complaint is the "dead pedal" issue (search the forum for it).

Ok, what I'm taking away is that when you first hit the gas to accelerate from low speeds, there can be a "dead pedal" delaying immediate power by a second or two. However, once that initial power kicks in, the speedometer files up with no hesitation whatsoever. Am I getting that right?

 

[craigt]

From a dead stop, it's fine because the transmission is already in 1st. If traveling, say, 30 mph and slowing down, the transmission will want to hold onto 3rd. Coming to an intersection, if you roll through it and hit the gas, there will be a delay before full power comes on. It's only an issue if traffic is coming and want to accelerate very quickly, right now.

I've had my car for about a year and a half and have learned to live with it.

My wife has driven it many times and always gushes over the power and smoothness. And she normally drives a Lexus.

 

[Rysher8]

From a dead stop, it's fine because the transmission is already in 1st. If traveling, say, 30 mph and slowing down, the transmission will want to hold onto 3rd. Coming to an intersection, if you roll through it and hit the gas, there will be a delay before full power comes on. It's only an issue if traffic is coming and want to accelerate very quickly, right now.

I've had my car for about a year and a half and have learned to live with it.

My wife has driven it many times and always gushes over the power and smoothness. And she normally drives a Lexus.

Helps a ton! Thanks. Is this issue particular to the '12, or is it consistent across older models?

 

[amartz]

From a dead stop, it's fine because the transmission is already in 1st. If traveling, say, 30 mph and slowing down, the transmission will want to hold onto 3rd. Coming to an intersection, if you roll through it and hit the gas, there will be a delay before full power comes on.

I still maintain it's not a transmission issue, it's an engine/throttle issue. The transmission is not going to downshift before the engine wakes up and builds some torque. Search for the threads where many of us have modified the air-box flapper to greately reduce this delay. No need to live with it.

 

[craigt]

I maintain it is a transmission issue. I have modified the flap, and even removed the flap, and the issue persists.

I also have proven, at least to myself, that it is the transmission by manually shifting to 1, slowing down from 25mph to 5mph, mashing the gas, and taking off immediately. The RPMs in 1st at 5mph is very close to idle so there is no engine build up during that test. In addition, mashing the gas should result in instant engine build up regardless of gear. This is like a dead zone for 2-3 seconds (perhaps reduced to 1-2 seconds with the flapper mod).

Anyhow, we're getting off topic. The other thread beats this issue into the ground and we should not be restarting it here.

 

[Rysher8]

Martz and Craig,

Both of these explanations are crystal clear in trying to imagine what normal driving in the Genesis would be. The delay sounds like a minor irritation that does not arise very often, and may be somewhat compensated for with the air flap removal.

For those who drive the '11 or earlier, is this experienced on those models as well, or is it particular to the 8 speed? That's really what I'm trying to get to the bottom of here.

 

[Dawg]

My 11 had the "delay"; however, I added electrical tape on both magnets and it has helped. I added about 5 layers of tape per magnet...keep in mind electrical tape is thin. I did not want to remove the flapper nor did I want to have too much tape that would leave a gap when the flapper is supposed to be closed. All I really did was reduce the strength of the magnets which allows the flapper to open easier...hence improve response time for the car to "know" I want it to go.

Side note: there is still an almost 2 second "delay" when driving in manual and you mash it. It must be some kind of nanny control to keep the car from spinning the wheels. Without it, I know at 20 mph in first gear manual...if I mashed the gas all the way and there was no delay, the tires would spin. Pretty impressive.

 

[daviderle]

For those who drive the '11 or earlier, is this experienced on those models as well, or is it particular to the 8 speed? That's really what I'm trying to get to the bottom of here.

I have both the 6sp and 8sp and drive them on weekly bases. Here is my thoughts (for what its worth):

1 - The dead pedal / engine issue was present to some degree on both cars but more so on the R-Spec (but I had to intentionally recreate the issue)
2 - The flapper / magnet weakening marginally helped.
3 - Having installed the rigid collar on both cars and in both cases, they eliminated the delay issue completely, as I am unable to create the issue on either vehicle
4 - The 8sp is a tad more responsive / sporty.
5 - The 6sp is tad smoother during gear changes.
6 - The 6sp changes gears in 650ms while the 8sp is around 500ms (ie the 8sp is measured to be faster).

Which one I like better? The answer is both, I love to drive the family around in the 6sp (4.6) on weekends and long trips, however, the 8sp (R-Spec) is my favorite for keeping my neck muscles in tiptop condition.

Hope this helps...