Air Filter

[Mark_888]

^ I always have wondered how the tire installer could remove 100% of the air in order to have 100% nitrogen. They would need to buy one of those food/luggage air removers as seen on TV, LOL. I'm doubting it's possible to get 100% Nitrogen, but if air is already damn near 80%, what's it worth to have another 10% higher Nitrogen content? Nothing I'd pay for, but if offered free I'd gladly accept.

Yeah, probably not 100%, but I think they get higher than 90%. Here is blurb from www.tirerack.com:

"While inflating tires with nitrogen never results in 100% purity, most nitrogen service equipment providers advise that reaching at least a 93% to 95% purity is necessary to receive the desired benefits. This ratio is normally achieved by initially purging the tires of existing air (down to just a few psi) and then refilling them with nitrogen. The purge/fill cycle is often repeated to achieve the desired level of nitrogen purity."​

 

[GenesisCaptain]

I always have wondered how the tire installer could remove 100% of the air in order to have 100% nitrogen.

They deflate and re-inflate the tires to dilute the oxygen and water vapor. I think that you can get the nitrogen content pretty high-- into the 95% range, and this is good enough for the FAA, F1, and other high-performance tire applications.

 

[OneFunGenesis]

That has to be taking some time while installing tires. One of the main reasons I don't splurge for the nitrogen fill is because I actually own an air compressor and tire fitting attachment

 

[Mark_888]

That has to be taking some time while installing tires. One of the main reasons I don't splurge for the nitrogen fill is because I actually own an air compressor and tire fitting attachment

I also have the same, and occasionally use it to add air to my tires. But the small amount of additional air I add (in-between tire rotations) does not seem to adversely affect the benefits of initially using nitrogen when the tires were installed. I rarely have to add more than 1-2 PSI of air.

 

[OneFunGenesis]

Interesting! When I change wheels for the seasons, there are times I can put 7-10 psi in each tire though.

 

[Top Gear]

Yes, I'm annoyed (Thanks Gambler and Hyundai Genesis!). I left another Genesis forum behind because of their abysmal moderation practices, including following people around, outing them, and other tactics. I didn't expect to see any of that here. What's worse, I'm not wrong (here or in the other relevant thread), so I do not appreciate being invited to leave because some moderator disagrees with facts.

Anyway, pure nitrogen is neither free nor a scam. Go to an oil changing service and they will upsell you on it, thus charging you. Nitrogen is way more stable when compressed into a tire than normal air. The result is that the tires always feel the same, regardless of temp or humidity, as tire pressure remains constant or near enough instead of going way up and down with conditions. Therefore, steering, braking, corner and bump handling, etc, etc, are all much improved and far more predictable. So, to get this from the dealer for free is worth something to me, because I'm driving a sports car with track-tuned suspension and I frequently drive it hard.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

Yes, I'm annoyed. I left another Genesis forum behind because of their abyssmal moderation practices, including following people around, outing them, and other tactics. I didn't expect to see any of that here. What's worse, I'm not wrong (here or in the other relevant thread), so I do not appreciate being invited to leave because some moderator disagrees with facts.

Where were you invited to leave? I'm missing something here...

 

[GenesisCaptain]

Where were you invited to leave? I'm missing something here...

It was not a direct invitation to leave. But it was implied in a post that closed with "thanks for lurking." The original posts have been deleted, however.

 

[mtrot]

For my first round of CAI and cabin filters, I recently had them replaced by the dealer, delayed from 15k to 18,750k due to another epic pollen season here.

In the case of the 3.8 V6 Coupe in the US, the stock CAI air filter is hi-flow just like a K&N, because of the additional EPA "carbon" filter (which I've removed, for 10-20HP, thank you very much). Couldn't really beat the parts price, either. The engine air filter was $19.99 and the cabin air filter was $24.99, however, labor was another $35. The engine air filter is easy, of course, but for the overall deal, balance that labor charge against driving around town to find the parts, or paying for shipping to get them, then not having that special tool or whatever to get to the cabin filter, etc.

It also needs to be said, my dealer is a very good one, and I get other freebies from them, like nitrogen in my tires from day one and topped off anytime I want, which ain't nothin', as they say

This is interesting. Does only the Coupe 3.8 have this EPA "carbon" filter, or does the 4.6 V8 also have it? If so, where is it and how does one remove it? Thanks.

 

[OneFunGenesis]

This is interesting. Does only the Coupe 3.8 have this EPA "carbon" filter, or does the 4.6 V8 also have it? If so, where is it and how does one remove it? Thanks.

The 4.6 does have it. If you take the filter canister apart and look right in the top (or poke around with your finger) you can see or feel the filter and it can be removed. I have yet to do it though lol.

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[Retry]

Back to nitrogen for a moment, here is what I posted back in February. I'm still standing by it unless someone can show me where I'm mistaken:
------------------------------
May I interject my thoughts on tire pressure? My recommended "cold" pressure is 33 PSI in front and rear. That recommendation is based on "air" pressure right out of an air compressor. If you are using nitrogen, as I am, and you inflate to 33 PSI, then theoretically even driving on a hot summers day, your tires should remain at 33 PSI because nitrogen doesn't expand and contract as atmospheric air does. The 33 PSI recommendation assumes "air pressure" that is anticipated to rise 3 to 5 PSI while driving. Since nitrogen doesn't do that, I tend to believe that 33 PSI of nitrogen is actually running under inflated when your tires reach their anticipated operating temperature. I run at least 36 pounds of nitrogen to compensate for that fact. If I'm out in left field on this, somebody please let me know. BTW, I believe Pat Goss was right when he said nitrogen was just a gimmick. I only use it because my car came with it.

 

[Mark_888]

Back to nitrogen for a moment, here is what I posted back in February. I'm still standing by it unless someone can show me where I'm mistaken:
------------------------------
May I interject my thoughts on tire pressure? My recommended "cold" pressure is 33 PSI in front and rear. That recommendation is based on "air" pressure right out of an air compressor. If you are using nitrogen, as I am, and you inflate to 33 PSI, then theoretically even driving on a hot summers day, your tires should remain at 33 PSI because nitrogen doesn't expand and contract as atmospheric air does. The 33 PSI recommendation assumes "air pressure" that is anticipated to rise 3 to 5 PSI while driving. Since nitrogen doesn't do that, I tend to believe that 33 PSI of nitrogen is actually running under inflated when your tires reach their anticipated operating temperature. I run at least 36 pounds of nitrogen to compensate for that fact. If I'm out in left field on this, somebody please let me know. BTW, I believe Pat Goss was right when he said nitrogen was just a gimmick. I only use it because my car came with it.

According to Charles Law, the volume of gas in proportional to its temperature. That applies to all gases. If the volume is constant (as in a tire) that means if the temperature goes up, the pressure must increase.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles's_law

Maybe I am wrong, but this is my understanding.

Do you have a link or reference concerning what Pat Goss says about nitrogen? Anyway, I would not trust someone who has worn the same shirt for 30 years.

One of the advantages of nitrogen is that it usually has less moisture than nitrogen, and it is not good to have any moisture in a race car tire or in an airplane tire (which typically flies at freezing temps). For regular consumers, the big advantage seems to be that nitrogen leaks less than air, so it maintains proper tire pressure better. But I think even with nitrogen you still have to account for difference between cold tire pressure and a fully warmed-up tire (tires get warm and heat up the gas inside due to constant flexing of the belts in the tire).

 

[Mark_888]

BTW, I believe Pat Goss was right when he said nitrogen was just a gimmick.

According to this link, Pat Goss seems to endorse nitrogen in tires. He mentions the fact that nitrogen has less (or no) moisture compared to air as the main advantage, but mentions that there are other advantages that he doesn't specify.
http://www.motorweek.org/features/goss_garage/filling_tires_with_nitrogen_gas

 

[Retry]

According to this link, Pat Goss seems to endorse nitrogen in tires. He mentions the fact that nitrogen has less (or no) moisture compared to air as the main advantage, but mentions that there are other advantages that he doesn't specify.
http://www.motorweek.org/features/goss_garage/filling_tires_with_nitrogen_gas

Yes, I see that and also another link where he says basically the same thing. I saw him on an episode of Motorweek years ago and he did present the advantages of nitrogen, but in the end, as I recall, there were no appreciable differences to justify buying it. I believe it ended with something like check your tires regularly and save your money. I will admit however, my memory ain't what it used to be, but I do remember that episode.

 

[Mark_888]

Yes, I see that and also another link where he says basically the same thing. I saw him on an episode of Motorweek years ago and he did present the advantages of nitrogen, but in the end, as I recall, there were no appreciable differences to justify buying it. I believe it ended with something like check your tires regularly and save your money. I will admit however, my memory ain't what it used to be, but I do remember that episode.

That might be accurate, but not many people check the air pressure in their tires as often as they should.

 

[OneFunGenesis]

According to this link, Pat Goss seems to endorse nitrogen in tires. He mentions the fact that nitrogen has less (or no) moisture compared to air as the main advantage, but mentions that there are other advantages that he doesn't specify.
http://www.motorweek.org/features/goss_garage/filling_tires_with_nitrogen_gas

I happen to think that Pay Goss is a giant idiot. I cant stand him and his condescending words. That is the only part of motorweek I don't watch.

Yes, I see that and also another link where he says basically the same thing. I saw him on an episode of Motorweek years ago and he did present the advantages of nitrogen, but in the end, as I recall, there were no appreciable differences to justify buying it. I believe it ended with something like check your tires regularly and save your money. I will admit however, my memory ain't what it used to be, but I do remember that episode.

From what I remember of that episode, you are correct. Check them once a month, and fill when necessary with air or nitrogen. He had not preference to either.

 

[Top Gear]

I've gotten some questions on my mention of the "carbon filter". This was news to me as well. It seems many or eventually all cars in North America are now required to have them (can't find more info on that, despite digging, so you'll have to look at yours). Turbo/Supercharged stock cars seem exempt from this second filter, probably because the intake system yields the same result: This carbon/charcoal filter prevents fumes from escaping back out of the engine in case it sputters - that's it.

So, if yours has this feature, there are probably two air filters next to each other, and thus, air-flow restriction. The white paper air filter you regularly change is actually a hi-flow design to compensate. The two together are roughly the same restriction as a normal white paper filter on a pre-mandate car. Tests posted over on the popular Coupe forum showed the stock paper filter was as hi-flow as a K&N, that is, dyno test comparisons of the two showed virtually no change. Therefore, carefully removing this "carbon/charcoal" filter gives you the same basic benefits as changing a normal single paper filter to a K&N. It only takes minutes to do, it's free, and you don't have the issues some have noted related to oiling K&Ns. Dyno testing also posted over there showed 10-20HP or more gains at various revs from doing nothing more than removing this second filter. Board policy here prevents me linking, but Google is your friend. Some guys went back to these hi-flow paper filters since the K&N was not necessary.

So, I gave it a try. The growl from the CAI was bad ass when I first heard it. I was skeptical about the HP claims, but the extra power (particularly along with the V-Power ethanol-free I tend to run) is impossible to miss with the "butt-dyno". I've EASILY gotten some 20HP from the 3.8 V6 just by giving it proper gas and removing that carbon filter (likely 20HP each at some revs). You'll feel it, particularly on the bottom end and with your throttle response and shifting. The computer will adjust engine tuning to take advantage, and this will not make your engine smoke or wear out other parts like many aftermarket mods can. It is unlikely a mechanic will notice or care, and thus it is not likely to be a warranty issue, either. It's a no-brainer.

So, go look at your intake air box and open it to look at the filter. On the Coupe, the white filter is facing up so we can see it. Then look on the underside, hidden so you can't really see it, and you'll probably spot the grey carbon/charcoal filter I'm talking about. You should be able to remove the upper part of your air box so you can get in there and snip the little fasteners holding that second filter in place. Make sure you can do it in a reversible way, even if the pins holding it in place are ruined, such that the filter would just fit back in there if you need to put it back. I used fingernail snips, actually, to carefully slice the tiny pinheads off in a tight space. Then, put the air box back together with only your hi-flow paper filter and enjoy the new growl and grunt your car will have

 

[bjohns5]

Regarding removing the secondary air filter - would Hyundai service have a snit fit if you took the car in with any sort of engine problem and they found the charcoal filter missing? I'd hate to void the expensive 100K-Mile extended bumper-to-bumper warranty I purchased for the 2012 3.8 I just bought last weekend.

 

[Top Gear]

Good question. That's why you remove it in such a way as to be able to put it back. In the Coupe, this is very easy to pull off. I keep my removed filter in a sealed bag and can put it back anytime. The fit is tight enough, but some people use velcro, etc. If the Sedan's (or another model's) air box won't allow for that by design, get another new or used box top and destroy the filter part as needed (make sure any dust is removed), then switch box tops when you need to take it in

My guess is it wouldn't be a problem, warranty-wise, but we never really know, as that depends on your dealer and service manager, the problem they are trying to claim with the factory on your behalf, as well as how visible this filter is on your car. I didn't even put mine back in when I had them do the air filter as I described above. Also, this modification will not cause any "check engine" or other codes or problems (at least on the 3.8 R-Spec Coupe).

 

[genesis20]

Good question. That's why you remove it in such a way as to be able to put it back. In the Coupe, this is very easy to pull off. I keep my removed filter in a sealed bag and can put it back anytime. The fit is tight enough, but some people use velcro, etc. If the Sedan's (or another model's) air box won't allow for that by design, get another new or used box top and destroy the filter part as needed (make sure any dust is removed), then switch box tops when you need to take it in

My guess is it wouldn't be a problem, warranty-wise, but we never really know, as that depends on your dealer and service manager, the problem they are trying to claim with the factory on your behalf, as well as how visible this filter is on your car. I didn't even put mine back in when I had them do the air filter as I described above. Also, this modification will not cause any "check engine" or other codes or problems (at least on the 3.8 R-Spec Coupe).

Did this mod on my 4.6 and there is indeed a noticeable difference (positive). Didn't have to snip anything; held in place with clips. Took less than 30sec to do.