Buyers remorse saga...a little help?

[Billfz1]

"I think there is some misinformation out there about electric cars. There are sevral things I wanted to point out. 1) Filling up your car on electricity is A LOT cheaper then gas prices. If you add a car to your home electricity bill you wouldn't notice much change."

{This is not true, many electric car owners have seen bills doubled.}

"4) Electric engines are much simpler and less prone to failing then gasoline cars. They also don't need break pads and a lot of other fluids. All this makes electric car REALLY low on maintenance costs."

{Where did you get the idea that electric cars don't use brake pads? Even the electrics that use regenerative braking still have conventional brakes too. I will agree that electric motors themselves are reliable, but the controls can be just as difficult as gas cars. Witness the test of the Fisker that bricked itself during the Consumer Reports test!}


"So the two main issues with electric cars is range and price (of batteries).

The range is being worked on and you're currently seeing about 10-20% gain in range/capacity year to year. So it should only be 5-10 years before electric car ranges are on par or surpass gasoline powered cars."

{Something that everyone should know about Lithium Ion batteries, which have been the best range wise so far. If your car is involved in an accident, where there is a fire, the fire department won't even try to put it out. The smoke is so toxic that the instruction from many departments is to cordon off the area to protect passers by.}


I don't have anything against electrics specifically, but even Musk has said that the best technology right now is to go hybrid like the Volt.

I work in the tech industry and I'm forced to go where the jobs are. I have a 50 mile, 1 way commute. That is 100 miles a day guys, I might not make it home even with the best range car. I am infuriated that electric advocates want to tell me I can't drive to work. I do not want to be forced to participate in their experiments in social engineering. I also would like a car that is fun to drive. Remember FUN folks, we should still be able to enjoy our vehicles. I for one still plan to do so.
Bill

 

[geneswede]

Cost of filling up a 1st gen RAV iV: about $2.70 (!!!!!!!): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV#Mileage_costs

Even if you fill up every day (2.70x7x4 = $75/month). This would mean a completely empty battery every day (so driving ~90 miles/day think about what a G would cost driven as far). Ok I will agree that I would notice that but even that would not double my electric bill (and I live in a green certified home) compared to my Central AC. Additionally In CA at least (not in Boston) you can also negotiate to get cheaper rates at night making the cost lower for charging. Realistically you are looking at about 1/2 that cost (or less) and still compare it to the cost of driving a normal car the same range...

As for brake pads: I got 85.000 miles in Boston Traffic (Somerville to Burlington) in my Prius. My friend (in CA) driving the Rav IV got 150.000 miles before swapping pads and that was mostly because of age. The RAV IV uses the brakes even less then the Prius since the engine is bigger so can brake harder.

Regarding complcity: Compare the number (moving) parts in an electric engine/gearbox compared to a gasoline engine. It doesn't come close. Sure a Fisker can be complex as it still luggs around a range extending gasolline engine (just like the Volt). But I'm talking pure EV like the Tesla or Rav IV

As for fires: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicle_fire_incidents

As of June 2013, no fires after a crash have been reported in the U.S. associated with any of the plug-in electric cars available in the country.[4] The only crash related fire reported took place in China in May 2012, after a high-speed car crashed into a BYD e6 taxi in Shenzhen.[5] Most gasoline-electric hybrids available in the market today use nickel-metal hydride batteries which do not pose the same risk of thermal runway as lithium-ion batteries.

Same page also talk about procedures for fire fighters for how to deal with issues. Compared to the energy stored in a gas tank the energy stored in lithium ion batteries is lower per volume (which is why range is an issue). We where able to figure out safe ways for driving around with gas bombs strapped to our cars, I'm sure we can (and have already) figured out the same for batteries.

I know the Prius and the Volt will automatically switch off the big battery in the case of an accident (i.e an airbag going off). I'm sure all cars do that. Sure that can fail but so can saftey systems in a normal car.

People where worried about fire risks when the Prius became popular and it has not been an issue. I'm sure they worry about the Volt too and so far no issue. The Teslas have been rolling for some time with out issues etc etc.

I apologize for high jacking this thread but I spent a lot of time reading up on this issue and I'm passionate about it. EV cars offers a lot of interesting benefits (Torque, Power, Simplicity of design, get rid of foreign dependencies on oil, lower total energy consumption in US (no refineries) and of course cleaner.

It only have a few (BUT BIG) issues which i.m.o are Range, Re-Charge infrastructure & Up-Front costs. The biggest thing holding it back could in the end be availability of rare metals to mass produce batteries at a reasonable cost. Hopefully that can be solved. Range should be solved within 10 years and infrastructure can be solved today. Upfront cost can be solved through leasing.

I think we are 5-10 years away from electric cars becoming competitive in total cost of ownership and range with mid range type cars (i.e Toyota Camry). Today they are a statement. If I where willing to spend 80+k on a a car I would make the Tesla statement LONG before I made the Mercedes S statement (as I said this is my commuter car and I have a family van for long trips).

 

[Fast55]

You missed a few major points when it comes to recharging EV's:

The power coming out of your wall socket was almost certainly produced by a coal fired power plant. There is no solving the infrastructure problem today. It will take many years to put enough charging stations around the country to make EV's viable for all travel. Outside urban areas, they are still few and far between. Finally, it will take a complete revolution in battery technology to make charging happen in even 10 times the amount of time it takes to fill a gas tank. The fastest 3 phase charging stations still take at least 30-45 minutes.

 

[scottdk]

Energy cells in batteries lose capacity over time, and makes the fuel economy suffer as batteries age.....Nothing new here.......

Then there is the battery replacement cost (even the so-called lifetime batteries need replacing eventually). I'm all for EV's, but only when they are relevant to the average person financially and economically. As mentioned above.....it's going to be a while.

 

[homeofstone]

Isn't EV range really short when in slow traffic on a 101 degree day with ac wide open in rain with headlights on and wipers on for an hour, or for that matter on a 10 degree day in snow with lights and wipers on and with heat blasting for an hour in traffic? Fuel cell is the way of the future which Hyundai has just sold some to Demark for testing. link to article http://green.autoblog.com/2013/06/07/hyundai-delivers-first-hydrogen-fuel-cell-ix35-in-copenhagen/

 

[Jimmmmbo!]

It's too bad this thread got hijacked. It was a pretty good thread.

 

[Aquineas]

If you've got buyer's remorse now, you're in serious trouble when the next model is released and starts getting positive reviews . Just trying to help...

 

[my2wins]

If you've got buyer's remorse now, you're in serious trouble when the next model is released and starts getting positive reviews . Just trying to help...

I don't think that will phase me (but thank you for the kind hearted attempt). I saw some sneak peak visuals and it doesn't have the same . . . je ne sais quoi. The current models are spectacularly gorgeous. The next model seems beautiful.

 

[Aquineas]

I don't think that will phase me (but thank you for the kind hearted attempt). I saw some sneak peak visuals and it doesn't have the same . . . je ne sais quoi. The current models are spectacularly gorgeous. The next model seems beautiful.

Yanno as of now, I can say I feel the same way: I absolutely love the look of the current model (so much that I'm on my second). But like a favorite song that doesn't quite hit you the same way after a few hundred times on the radio, older designs can look dated compared to something new and fresh. And sometimes a design that looks merely average in photos can knock your socks off in person. This is how I felt about the last generation Acura TL; it was merely "okay" in photos, but when I saw it in person the first time, particularly in white, I thought it was beautiful (of course now they're a dime a dozen and have no impact on me whatsoever, but back in 2004 when I bought mine, I thought they were gorgeous).

I'm waiting to see the next generation in person before I pass judgement. One thing I am confident about is that mechanically, the next generation will be better than the current one. The Koreans seem to be on a path of exponential generational improvement, and I have high expectations for the next generation Genesis. And to that end, I believe the reviews will be stellar.

 

[my2wins]

Hear ya. But it won't mean a thing if the technology doesn't work flawlessly as advertised.

For me, not having functional voice command working well (primarily speaker phone and BlueLink VC navigation) from day 1 on the car has seriously impacted my love affair.

I'm only 3 months in and my Blue Link ignores me and my speaker phone sounds so muffled that I can't use it. And my XM free subscription just ended abruptly (adding insult to injury). Guess it's a little like real life love.

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[Aquineas]

Well after owning the 2013 Ford Fusion, I will say that poor to semi-functional technology seems to be more prevalent than I'd previously thought. The Fusion voice recognition is even worse than the Genny's. Now it does get some things right that the Genesis doesn't have (well, the 2012 version of the Genesis anyway, not sure about the 2013 version). Things like being able to listen to music over bluetooth without any adapters. Text messages can optionally be listened to while driving. 6 month Sirius/XM subscription with trial weather, traffic, and news. Basically a whole bunch of stuff most of us turn to our phone for are available on the center console. Plus on the Hybrid version of the Fusion, there are a whole set of metrics that help to support, encourage, and facilitate getting better fuel mileage.

But all in all, I'd say it sucks. Truth be told I think we're a couple generations away from an awesome technology package in *any* car, but I haven't driven the "gold-standard" of technology, the Mercedes Benz S Class (based on the past automotive innovations that appeared on the S Class before any other car).

In any case, by awesome I mean near flawless voice recognition, being able to listen to and verbally transpose text messages, seamless integration between phone and car, the ability to enter a navigation address without speaking in staccato or without 1000 discreet steps. I'm thinking something like google voice search on Android, where you can say something like "Navigate to nearest PF Chang's", and it works. We'll get there eventually, and the Genesis unfortunately debuted as a 2008 car so it's a bit behind the curve (even with BlueLink).

 

[my2wins]

I agree.

I did test drive my neighbor's brand new Lexus RX while I was doing my car research 4 months ago, and it seemed to have an impressive (and highly functional) technology package. The Lexus equivalent of Blue Link actually gets you to a live operator who has a conversation with you, asks what info you'd like, then uploads the directions right to your navi. (In the other hand, Blue Link greets me with the salutation, "Thank you for calling Hyundai Blue Link." Then hangs up on me 9 out of 10 times.)

The equivalent technology package on a Hyundai seems to run about $10,000 less retail than the Lexus. Maybe more.

And as I've since learned, "You get what you pay for."