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Can the mess with toyota happen to hyundai

ilovemygenesis

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Location
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Genesis Model Type
Genesis GV80
By now i'm sure you've heard news about Toyota's recall, what is everyone's thoughts? The problem is with the acceleration which is the same drive by wire technology i believe that the Genesis uses??? Is anyone else concerned that this new technology might be a problem? Given the number of issues found in the Genesis (granted none have been life threatening as of yet) Is there a concern with everyone that Hyundai won't fall victim to the same fate?
 
There is a whole class of engineering analysis called "Failure Mode and Event Analysis" - FMEA for short. FMEA looks at a design and says "if this part jams what happens. What if it fails to move? What if it physically breaks/falls off? What if it outputs nonsense information (if it's a sensor)? What if the wires to this sensor short out, break open, or touch some other wires?" The answers to those questions lead to redundancy in some systems (e.g. the dual hydraulic channels in car brake systems so a single leak won't leave you with no brake fluid) and/or "overdesign" for single threaded systems (e.g. the steering column of your car is WAY WAY stronger than it needs to be to survive any twist force you might apply to the steering wheel so it should never fatigue/break).

With electronics & computers though it is much harder to analyze every combination. And, the more "stuff" on the vehicle, the more interactions you have to analyze. Now think about analyzing that vehicle 5 to 10 years after it's been sold: how well was it maintained? Maybe that "backup" system is busted but the owner didn't get it fixed... or didn't even know it was busted. How many cars do you see driving down the road with bald tires, a "check engine" light blazing away on the dash, etc. The experience of the design engineers plays a big role in this situation... and being able to review history of past failures (on your cars or the competitor's cars) helps engineers develop scenarios that can catch poor/dangerous designs. "Don't do this... we've seen ice build up on cables like that leading to stuck..." In the aircraft world, airlines report maintenance things they find on aircraft (i.e. "had to replace seal #12345 on fuselage #45206 after x.xxxx flight hours/yyy cycles" back to the manufacturer and to government oversight agencies. This information is shared too - so that trends can be seen. And a statistical database of how often part XYZ fails in service can be determined to see if it's failing more often than the engineers expected. If so, this failure plus some other failure, are more likely than expected and could lead to incidents/accidents.

How much of this occurs in the car world? Nowhere near as much. NHTSA tracks customer complains and fatal accidents reported to it... but it's not like the airplane world where everything is tracked. NHTSA gets more involved if there is a public outcry over something. Parts that fail leading to emissions issues are tracked by law... but not much else is tracked including many things that could affect safety.

So how well does Hyundai design for such failures? Don't know. We've seen posts on these boards from folks having cars that suddenly won't accelerate when something fails... but after a few seconds the engine computer figures out the problem and works around it. Those few seconds though can be hazardous. Sometimes the computer doesn't figure out the problem until after you shut the engine off and restart - yikes. But in general, Hyundai's recent record of reliability says they probably aren't stupid.

Electronics and especially computer controlled stuff are more precise than mechanical systems. Electronic fuel injection basically became the only way to meet emissions requirements; carburetors just were not precise enough over all conditions (temperature, altitude, varying fuel quality, etc) to meet stringent emissions laws. The computers work by having parts to monitor the exhaust (the oxygen sensor) and use feedback to adjust the air to fuel ratio to get the best emissions... that's a lot of parts "monitoring" the engine rather than just making it "go." Lots of new parts, lots more things to go wrong. How much margin was designed into those parts? Your home computer/laptop probably wouldn't survive the temperatures the engine computer sees in your car - the engine computer has to be designed for much higher temps. But is that design conservative or just enough to survive those temps? If it's conservative, the chances of failure are probably lower (better) than one that is just adequate. Again, recent history indicates Hyundai is doing pretty well.

Personally, I consider electro-mechanical parts the weakest link in cars, airplanes, etc. The more complex the vehicle, the more of these stupid things you'll have. System redundancy/backup algorithms and conservative design are what it takes to minimize the number of problems. If it weren't for the 10 year/100K mile warranty I might not have purchased a Genesis - or any modern vehicle for that matter. I keep my cars for decades because I drive few miles per year... I doubt these electro-mechanical will be 100% problem free for decades. They crap out with time, not mileage too. Will replacements be available 10, 15, 20 years later? Electronic bits are the hardest to find after a long time... mechanical parts are much easier to get for old cars.

mike c.
 
^ In summation, yes. But it can happen to any manufacturer. More complicated vehicle = more chances of failure.
 
With Toyota, now they are saying that the bearings and bushings on the drop down gas pedal gets rusted, and causes the pedal to not return to the idle position.

Our Genesis' do not use a drop down gas pedal, but a pedal that pivots, down on the floor. I know,,,, this looks old style, like the cars of yesteryear, but any bearings and bushings in the Genesis is not in the same area as the Toyota and most cars, which are above the drivers toe. (Who knows, the bearings and bushings could be under the floorboard - don't know)

I have no idea just how the Genesis gas pedal works, or how it connects to the "Drive by wire" system. I'm still trying to figure out just what that "detent" is when you push the pedal to the floor. Don't know what I'm taling about? Do the following.
WITH THE ENGINE OFF, slowly push the gas pedal down to the floor. You will notice that just before it gets all the way down, it will "click" a detent, and continue to the floor.
If you get down on your knees and look, you will see a "button" or detent that the pedal pushes down. I owned my car many many months before I found out about that detent. Whenever I needed to pass a car, I pushed down, but never hard enough to click the detent. The car still flew, and I assumed that I had pushed it down all the way.
Well, like I said, I still have no idea why it is there. (the 4.6 is like this - don't know about the 3.8)
 
What I hope Hyundai learns from Toyota is "What does this mean to us" IMO it means listen to your owners. The lack of good road handling, non harsh road handling, may only happen to some, and some may eventually have a problem during hard braking or cornering and loose control because of it. Remember there are millions of Toyota drives over a number of years and only a few hundred genesis driver.

Extreme analysis, I really don't know. The Ford Explorer situation killed some from only a handfull of extreme situations. I think the Hyundai situation may yet to be played out.

The point is Hyundai should listen and Learn not deny any inputs and should contact customers and take care of business. This situation may impact all Asian manufactures with a wide paintbrush of quality concerns from American buyers.
 
As already stated, the Toyota problems are not related to drive by wire, they are mechanical problems with the pedal.

If Toyota had handled the problem differently, they would not be in the situation they are now in. All cars have problems, and it how the manufacturer handles it that determines their ultimate fate. Many manufacturers ignore the problem and just hope it goes away, and amazingly that strategy often works. But sometimes that strategy backfires and when it does, it can be a very big explosion.
 
As already stated, the Toyota problems are not related to drive by wire, they are mechanical problems with the pedal.

If Toyota had handled the problem differently, they would not be in the situation they are now in. All cars have problems, and it how the manufacturer handles it that determines their ultimate fate. Many manufacturers ignore the problem and just hope it goes away, and amazingly that strategy often works. But sometimes that strategy backfires and when it does, it can be a very big explosion.

Don't be so quick to dismiss SOME of the reported problems not having anything to do with the Drive By Wire. I saw an interview with the head of Microsoft (not Bill Gates) who stated that his Toyota (I think it was a Prius, but not sure) would just continue to go forward, and had nothing to do with the gas pedal. Also saw where others would reach down with their foot to pull thegas pedal up, but the pedal was already up. Some kind of an electrical or computer glitch. The Microsoft guy said that he tried to contact Toyota, but was never able to inform them about the problem. (Forget about talking to dealers, as all they will ever say is "I'm sorry Mr. Xxxxxx, but we have not been able to duplicate the problem".

Ever since I saw that Airbus crash at the Paris Airshow, due to the "Fly-by-wire" overriding the pilot, I don't trust any Drive-by-wire system. My Genesis has it, but I don't trust it.
 
The "GUY" was Mr. Wosinack co-founder of Apple Corp. Certainly creditable source. He even tried to get old of higher execs at Hyundai no luck. When interviewed on ABS (I think) they were astounded a man of such stature could not be heard. Diane Sawyer commented "Well that tells you something right there"
 
The "GUY" was Mr. Wosinack co-founder of Apple Corp. Certainly creditable source. He even tried to get old of higher execs at Hyundai no luck. When interviewed on ABS (I think) they were astounded a man of such stature could not be heard. Diane Sawyer commented "Well that tells you something right there"

Thats right. It was Mr. Wosinack.

(Did I mention I hate Drive By Wire?) (Yes, our Genesis' are Drive By Wire!)
 
The "GUY" was Mr. Wosinack co-founder of Apple Corp. Certainly creditable source. He even tried to get old of higher execs at Hyundai no luck. When interviewed on ABS (I think) they were astounded a man of such stature could not be heard. Diane Sawyer commented "Well that tells you something right there"
With all due respect to the contributions that Steve Wozniak has made to the computing industry, after his Segway, Kathy Griffin, and Dancing With The Stars fiascoes, I'm not sure I would take his calls either. ;)
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With all due respect to the contributions that Steve Wozniak has made to the computing industry, after his Segway, Kathy Griffin, and Dancing With The Stars fiascoes, I'm not sure I would take his calls either. ;)

What "Segway fiasco"?

I often visit my friends at Segway of Central Florida here in Mount Dora, and I can tell you that the Segways sell well, with people coming here to buy one. They also do a guided tour of Mount Dora for a small fee. Sometimes, people who take the tour love the Segway so much, they end up buying one.

I know there are dealers all over the country, and all over the world. I've talked with people who rode Segways overseas and who fell in love with them there, then they return to the US, and buy one.

Again, What "Segway fiasco"?
 
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Oh I just thought after living near his place in Los Gatos and getting to talk to him a bit he sure seemed to know his software and that as a owner of anew Prius he was a creditable source on that subject and his insight would be useful to Toyota. I thought they might also be able to forsee that he could get national attention and that good publicity would be better than bad. But Oh Well! that's just this one posting servants opinion.
 
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