Could Start-up knocking noise be from Timing Chain Tensioner??

[enepveux]

New member warning...Glad to be here and share my experiences!
I have just had my 2012 Genesis Sedan at dealership to help with knocking issue at start-up. They changed the oil and filter twice for some reason?? The returned the car to me saying the engines are noisy and that maybe some time in the past the previous owner had oil changed at a place that did not use the correct oil filter, even though it had the correct one on it that day. The noise goes away if car was recently running when it is started again...sometimes.

I think it's the timing chain tensioner that makes the noise at start-up. The car runs really well. I have no other issues at all. It just sounds like a POS when I start it. Anyone have thoughts on my diagnosis??

Thanks!!

 

[balfor]

If it is a quick rattle that goes away in a few seconds or less then yes it is almost certainly the chain tensioner. It relies on oil pressure to hold the chain tight, so when you first start it the timing chain can flop around somewhat until it is brought up to tension by oil pressure building in the tensioner.

I wouldn't worry about it unless the sound is particularly loud or it continues past several seconds. if it does, it could indicate a problem with the chain guides or other issues.

Even my 2015 V6 with 7,500 miles has a very quick rattle when starting from the chain.

 

[Mark_888]

New member warning...Glad to be here and share my experiences!
I have just had my 2012 Genesis Sedan at dealership to help with knocking issue at start-up. They changed the oil and filter twice for some reason?? The returned the car to me saying the engines are noisy and that maybe some time in the past the previous owner had oil changed at a place that did not use the correct oil filter, even though it had the correct one on it that day. The noise goes away if car was recently running when it is started again...sometimes.

I think it's the timing chain tensioner that makes the noise at start-up. The car runs really well. I have no other issues at all. It just sounds like a POS when I start it. Anyone have thoughts on my diagnosis??

Thanks!!

Try using a 5W-30 Full Synthetic like Mobil 1.

 

[enepveux]

Thanks for quick reply! Ok, I just don' t like the sound it makes. The car looks so good..., and then you start it up and it sounds like a POS! I guess if our diagnosis is correct, the ZMAX I just put in with new oil won't stop the start-up noise. Lol

 

[Bill K]

My 2013 V6 doesn't do that at all....You might want to try a different dealer.

I don't see how the type of oil should make a difference. Either the tensioner is working right, or it should be replaced. Since you Genesis is used, it'll be covered for 5 years, 60,000 miles.

 

[Binmonkey]

+1 on the switching to a full synthetic 5W-30. I have tried using a 0W-20, no improvement. Tried both listed configurations of oil filters from Hyundai (the black plastic end cap and the white fabric end cap), no improvement. Now using Pennzoil Platinum full synthetic 5W-30 and a huge improvement!
I've only had my car 9 months, I don't believe the previous owner used synthetic so by using a synthetic I believe it will improve more over time as the oil has some time to clean any sludge that may be there. Synthetic has fantastic cleaning properties. Some people believe that this noise is also attributed to partial blocking of the small passages of the variable valve timing actuators. Some have replaced the timing chain and tensioner which is a huge job and still have the noise re-occur!
There is a reason why Hyundai and Kia have switched the recommendation of 2015 and up V6s from 5W-20 to 5W-30. Other brands such as GM also spec 5W-30 for their V6s while still using 5W-20 or 0W-20 for their 4 cylinder and V8 engines.
Give it a try, I think you will be impressed. Pennzoil Platinum and Ultra also meet the ACEA A5 spec which is specified for 2015 and up V6s from Hyundai. Although still a great oil, Mobil 1 does not.

 

[Mark_888]

+1 on the switching to a full synthetic 5W-30. I have tried using a 0W-20, no improvement. Tried both listed configurations of oil filters from Hyundai (the black plastic end cap and the white fabric end cap), no improvement. Now using Pennzoil Platinum full synthetic 5W-30 and a huge improvement!
I've only had my car 9 months, I don't believe the previous owner used synthetic so by using a synthetic I believe it will improve more over time as the oil has some time to clean any sludge that may be there. Synthetic has fantastic cleaning properties. Some people believe that this noise is also attributed to partial blocking of the small passages of the variable valve timing actuators. Some have replaced the timing chain and tensioner which is a huge job and still have the noise re-occur!
There is a reason why Hyundai and Kia have switched the recommendation of 2015 and up V6s from 5W-20 to 5W-30. Other brands such as GM also spec 5W-30 for their V6s while still using 5W-20 or 0W-20 for their 4 cylinder and V8 engines.
Give it a try, I think you will be impressed. Pennzoil Platinum and Ultra also meet the ACEA A5 spec which is specified for 2015 and up V6s from Hyundai. Although still a great oil, Mobil 1 does not.

The European ACEA specs are confusing and probably not relevant in this case so long as both oils are 5W-30. ACEA A5 is apparently only different than A1 when the viscosity is 5W-20 or below. Hyundai does recommend 5w-30 or higher for the V6 starting in 2015, so that is probably why they specify A5.

My judgment is that all Genesis V6 owners should use 5W-30, since the change in oil spec (previously 5W-20) was probably not a result of a change in the engine, but a better understanding of what is best to use based on real world experience with the engine.

http://www.oilspecifications.org/acea.php
A/B: gasoline and diesel engine oils

• ACEA A1/B1 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use at extended drain intervals in gasoline engines and car & light van diesel engines specifically designed to be capable of using low friction low viscosity oils with a high temperature / high shear rate viscosity of 2.6 mPa*s for xW/20 and 2.9 to 3.5 mPa.s for all other viscosity grades. These oils are unsuitable for use in some engines. Consult owner manual or handbook if in doubt.
• ACEA A3/B3 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use in high performance gasoline engines and car & light van diesel engines and/or for extended drain intervals where specified by the engine manufacturer, and/or for year-round use of low viscosity oils, and/or for severe operating conditions as defined by the engine manufacturer.
• ACEA A3/B4 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use in high performance gasoline and direct injection diesel engines, but also suitable for applications described under A3/B3.
• ACEA A5/B5 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use at extended drain intervals in high performance gasoline engines and car & light van diesel engines designed to be capable of using low friction low viscosity oils with a High temperature / High shear rate (HTHS) viscosity of 2.9 to 3.5 mPa.s. These oils are unsuitable for use in some engines. Consult owner manual or handbook if in doubt.

 

[Genesisplanet1963]

I have a Hyundai dealer right next door to where I work and they have a Master tech there with whom I converse often with now that I own an '11 3.8 with the same rattle described he has recommended trying lucas oil treatment. I will repost here if that works

 

[enepveux]

I have a Hyundai dealer right next door to where I work and they have a Master tech there with whom I converse often with now that I own an '11 3.8 with the same rattle described he has recommended trying lucas oil treatment. I will repost here if that works

Sorry, I meant to update with results from dealer...
I had called dealer mgt and left a detailed message. He actually returned my call and I left the car at their shop again hoping to get it looked at again. The next day the service guy called to say that manager and he went out first thing with coffee in hand to listen to cold startup. They were amazed, or so they said, at the noise and under warranty fixed the car. I have happy to report that all is week with my Hyundai to this day. The timing Chain guides were the problem. Thanks to all who replied to this thread and helped me think through this situation!!!!!

 

[MorrisGray]

Glad I found this site as my 2012 Genesis sedan is in need of an oil change and I have my wife complaining about a noise which I believe is this cold crank start up condition. I have only changed the oil once myself and used 5w20 full synthetic with a Purolator filter. I believe the part number was L25848, which if you change your own oil you know this a cartridge type internal filter. Not to my liking but it may be a good thing, unsure myself how I feel about it but it is inconvenient to change out. I will try the 5w30 full synthetic this go round and am trying to get a 27mm socket to remove that oil canister cap. Not sure if that size is correct but that why I came to this site, to learn more about this car and the maintenance for it. I used an adjustable wrench last time but feel that continued use will round off that plastic cap nut. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated and thank you all already for the helpful information given.

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[20113.8]

Good Morning, newbie here.
Took my '11 3.8 in for "low voltage" error codes, which was the battery, so replaced it. The tech called me (was concerned) about the rattle upon start up, when the car had been sitting. In his opinion (based on some research) it was the timing chain being loose, due to the tensioners losing pressure.
His estimation was @ $2800 canadian to fix.
It's going in to my local Hyundai dealer this morning, where they will try to determine what it is (diagnostic).
Not looking forward to the answer.
At this point, not sure how much I want to spend on a vehicle with a resale value as low as it is currently.
Also, I'm hearing that Hyundai hasn't really addressed this issue, seems they've determined it to be the "norm".
I have loved this car since we bought it, but find I'm disappointed that Hyundai might have this response to a problem that should be theirs, not mine, to fix. Isn't the point of a timing chain longer life, durability, etc.?
Anyways, I've read a lot of posts on this forum regarding this problem, thanks for all the shared experiences. Will keep this up to date.

 

[20113.8]

Well, they say they've ruled out the CVVT's making the noise, although they admit they can't replicate the noise, and are now keeping my car overnight.
They also commented on my aftermarket oil filter, and how they "have a service bulletin" about the use of OEM only oil filters (which I read about, in a post on this site...)
More to come.

 

[homeofstone]

Has anyone checked and adjusted the solid valve lifters? the 2011 3.8 V6 has solid lifters in the engine. check your manual for the required maintenance on the 2011 3.8 regarding the lifters.

 

[EdP]

Called me (was concerned) about the rattle upon start up, when the car had been sitting. In his opinion (based on some research) it was the timing chain being loose, due to the tensioners losing pressure.
His estimation was @ $2800 canadian to fix.

At this point, not sure how much I want to spend on a vehicle with a resale value as low as it is currently.
Also, I'm hearing that Hyundai hasn't really addressed this issue, seems they've determined it to be the "norm".
I have loved this car since we bought it, but find I'm disappointed that Hyundai might have this response to a problem that should be theirs, not mine, to fix. Isn't the point of a timing chain longer life, durability, etc.?
Anyways, I've read a lot of posts on this forum regarding this problem, thanks for all the shared experiences. Will keep this up to date.

How many miles? I assume it is out of warranty. At some point everything mechanical will wear out but it should last a fair length of time.

Unless the rest of the car is really primo, I'd be talking trade in at that price to fix.

 

[20113.8]

The car has 123,000 kms. (@77k miles). We'll wait to see what their thoughts are on it, but if it's what they suggest, trade is what we're thinking.

 

[20113.8]

So my Hyundai dealer had the car for 2 days, as they "could not replicate" the rattle noise. At first they ruled out cvvt's, and went the "aftermarket oil filter" route. Then they went back to the cvvt's, saying "1 and 2" are giving "very weak" error codes, and 1 of the exhaust was as well. Not enough for us to be concerned with. They did provide a quote of $4600, parts labor and taxes in.
So what now? That's roughly 1/4 the value of the car. But can we sell it as is? If I bought it and found that problem I'd be livid. Unsure which way to go, only that if it fails it'll A)cost more and B)be worthless otherwise.
Hyundai, of course, explained that my car was high mileage, thus this problem (nothing to do with poor design)...

 

[EdP]

So what now? That's roughly 1/4 the value of the car. But can we sell it as is? If I bought it and found that problem I'd be livid.

I know what I'd do. See that shiny new G80 Ultra over there? I'd drive it home. No way would I put $4500 into a car an not even be sure that was the problem.

 

[20113.8]

Had the timing chains, guides and tensioners replaced, $2500+. It's still making the noise, because the cvvt's weren't replaced ($1000 for 3). But now there's no concern of the chain destroying the guides.
Time to sell it.

- - - Updated - - -

Attempting to upload a pic of the engine opened up...
Success! Now that's a complicated mess...

 

[20113.8]

Change of plans. No success selling it, while it still makes the rattle occasionally on start-up. Biting the bullet and replacing the cvvt's. After that, who knows...

 

[1FstYota]

Change of plans. No success selling it, while it still makes the rattle occasionally on start-up. Biting the bullet and replacing the cvvt's. After that, who knows...

Is it really cold when this happens? How long does the sound last does it sound like a dull knocking noise? Does it go away after about 30 seconds or car gets warmer?

If all that is true your probably dealing with piston slap. Its when the bore is wore out enough when cold the aluminum piston rattles in there until warm. This is especially more pronounced when its really cold out, and as it warms up and expands it goes away, that's why it has to sit to really cool down before it happens again.