Could Start-up knocking noise be from Timing Chain Tensioner??

[20113.8]

Replaced all cvvt's as well as timing chain and guides, etc. No issues since. About to do an oil change, thinking of switching to synthetic. And of course, OEM Hyundai oil filter!

 

[Brock4060]

Replaced all cvvt's as well as timing chain and guides, etc. No issues since. About to do an oil change, thinking of switching to synthetic. And of course, OEM Hyundai oil filter!

Thx for the info. My 2010 3.8 is doing the same. Brief rattle at startup, only lasts a second or so but bothers me none the less...However, my big concern is the whining sound she's developed in the last month. Bought a mechanic's stethoscope to narrow it down. None of the peripherals. Seems to be coming from the top of the engine. Could it be the valves need adjustment? I'm no mechanic, just like to tinker a little.

 

[082104]

Thx for the info. My 2010 3.8 is doing the same. Brief rattle at startup, only lasts a second or so but bothers me none the less...However, my big concern is the whining sound she's developed in the last month. Bought a mechanic's stethoscope to narrow it down. None of the peripherals. Seems to be coming from the top of the engine. Could it be the valves need adjustment? I'm no mechanic, just like to tinker a little.

If you look back to one of my earlier posts, you’ll see a pic of the engine, with the front off, to expose the guides/timing chain. I’d look at that before deciding to get into it yourself...

 

[PhorenReign]

Any updates on this my 11' Genny is in the shop now for this CPO is sending an inspector out.

 

[chipld13]

Replaced all cvvt's as well as timing chain and guides, etc. No issues since. About to do an oil change, thinking of switching to synthetic. And of course, OEM Hyundai oil filter!

Sorry, I meant to update with results from dealer...
I had called dealer mgt and left a detailed message. He actually returned my call and I left the car at their shop again hoping to get it looked at again. The next day the service guy called to say that manager and he went out first thing with coffee in hand to listen to cold startup. They were amazed, or so they said, at the noise and under warranty fixed the car. I have happy to report that all is week with my Hyundai to this day. The timing Chain guides were the problem. Thanks to all who replied to this thread and helped me think through this situation!!!!!

I have a 2007 Azera, a 2011 Azera, and a 2009 Genesis, all with the 3.8L engine. The cars perform really well and are of generally good value for the money. I bought all three 'used' with an average of 75,000 miles. ALL THREE VEHICLES HAVE THE RATCHETY NOISE DURING COLD START, the 2011 Azera being the worst by far. Ironically, it has the lowest mileage of the three! The problem is definitely low oil pressure due to oil drain back. Either the oil filter or its mounting base, or the oil pump is failing to "check" drain back. The filter's check valve flapper is faulty, of inadequate design, or is not included in the cartridge or in the filter housing. Whichever the case, the end result is the same.

Because the filter housings are all mounted high on the engine, about as far away from the pump as you can get, drain back is severe. Before 'cold start', the filter housing is literally dry, along with all mechanical, lube-dependent devices down stream of the oil pump, for the amount of time needed to crank the engine and replenish the pressure head needed to lube. I checked two of my vehicles after overnight rest of around 12 to 14 hours by opening the filter housing and extracting the cartridge. Both cartridges didn't even drip and were nearly dry to the touch!

I installed new OEM filters, hoping to lessen or eliminate the problem. It did have some effect but did not correct the underlying cause, i.e. momentarily insufficient oil pressure to the chain tensioners due to retarded oil flow. There are two timing chains each with its own hydraulic pressure-regulated chain tensioner. There is also a third chain which is dedicated to driving the oil pump. There are two chain guides for each timing chain as well. The tensioners cannot do their job without oil pressure! And pressure will always be late in coming as long as drain back over an long period at rest is exhibited. The noise is clearly the result of one or more of several system flaws, i.e. NO Anti-Drain Back design provision in the oil system, or, a worn oil pump check valve or a worn or missing anti-drain back feature in the oil cartridge or filter housing.

While oil starvation-generated noise may not be apparent or even audible early in the life of the engine, the chain guides will likely wear dramatically over the span of some 50,000 to 80,000 miles worth of oil starve intervals when chain lash increasingly impacts them. This is not to mention the potential wear on the timing chains themselves and commensurate wear of the timing gear/sprockets due to chain lash. Of course, practically every moving or turning engine part needs oil and may well be affected if inadequate residual oil coating is not present. As you can see, there are many consequential opportunities for engine damage, at least in theory.

I feel the guides, chains and, most importantly, the tensioners and oil pump should be replaced. The parts are not the major cost, being mostly labor. The chains can easily be replaced once access to the other things mentioned are exposed, so replacing them and maybe even the sprockets is recommended. Then again, over $2,000 is a heavy commitment to a nearly nine-year old car. And, it remains to be seen just how much money can be justified when the full extent of real damage cannot be known without spending it. I can speculate the Hyundai engineers estimate the noise sounds worse than damage actually is. (Hyundai has been conspicuously quiet about this, save a bulletin advising use of the OEM cartridge.) It may last another 100,000 miles before a chain fails!

My wife and I love the cars and we own them! They have beautifully executed exteriors, provide good utility, comfort and convenience, and excellent economy for great power and acceleration. My 2007 Azera makes the least noise with 170,000 miles and runs silky smooth and quiet after startup. (It takes a different cartridge.) A newer car will cost me much more than the repair in loan payments, taxes, insurance and will most certainly require maintenance, regardless. I'm going to try starting the engine just before I go to bed to see if I can reduce the drain back enough to eliminate the problem. Also, it could be that jogging the starter might be enough to get some oil pressure before allowing the engine to start, minimizing the onset of chain lash. I'll let you know how that goes with a follow-up.

I invite dispute and comment, especially if it will save me and others time, money, and aggravation!
Thanks for reading!

 

[Kraig Wilkinson]

I have a 2007 Azera, a 2011 Azera, and a 2009 Genesis, all with the 3.8L engine. The cars perform really well and are of generally good value for the money. I bought all three 'used' with an average of 75,000 miles. ALL THREE VEHICLES HAVE THE RATCHETY NOISE DURING COLD START, the 2011 Azera being the worst by far. Ironically, it has the lowest mileage of the three! The problem is definitely low oil pressure due to oil drain back. Either the oil filter or its mounting base, or the oil pump is failing to "check" drain back. The filter's check valve flapper is faulty, of inadequate design, or is not included in the cartridge or in the filter housing. Whichever the case, the end result is the same.

Because the filter housings are all mounted high on the engine, about as far away from the pump as you can get, drain back is severe. Before 'cold start', the filter housing is literally dry, along with all mechanical, lube-dependent devices down stream of the oil pump, for the amount of time needed to crank the engine and replenish the pressure head needed to lube. I checked two of my vehicles after overnight rest of around 12 to 14 hours by opening the filter housing and extracting the cartridge. Both cartridges didn't even drip and were nearly dry to the touch!

I installed new OEM filters, hoping to lessen or eliminate the problem. It did have some effect but did not correct the underlying cause, i.e. momentarily insufficient oil pressure to the chain tensioners due to retarded oil flow. There are two timing chains each with its own hydraulic pressure-regulated chain tensioner. There is also a third chain which is dedicated to driving the oil pump. There are two chain guides for each timing chain as well. The tensioners cannot do their job without oil pressure! And pressure will always be late in coming as long as drain back over an long period at rest is exhibited. The noise is clearly the result of one or more of several system flaws, i.e. NO Anti-Drain Back design provision in the oil system, or, a worn oil pump check valve or a worn or missing anti-drain back feature in the oil cartridge or filter housing.

While oil starvation-generated noise may not be apparent or even audible early in the life of the engine, the chain guides will likely wear dramatically over the span of some 50,000 to 80,000 miles worth of oil starve intervals when chain lash increasingly impacts them. This is not to mention the potential wear on the timing chains themselves and commensurate wear of the timing gear/sprockets due to chain lash. Of course, practically every moving or turning engine part needs oil and may well be affected if inadequate residual oil coating is not present. As you can see, there are many consequential opportunities for engine damage, at least in theory.

I feel the guides, chains and, most importantly, the tensioners and oil pump should be replaced. The parts are not the major cost, being mostly labor. The chains can easily be replaced once access to the other things mentioned are exposed, so replacing them and maybe even the sprockets is recommended. Then again, over $2,000 is a heavy commitment to a nearly nine-year old car. And, it remains to be seen just how much money can be justified when the full extent of real damage cannot be known without spending it. I can speculate the Hyundai engineers estimate the noise sounds worse than damage actually is. (Hyundai has been conspicuously quiet about this, save a bulletin advising use of the OEM cartridge.) It may last another 100,000 miles before a chain fails!

My wife and I love the cars and we own them! They have beautifully executed exteriors, provide good utility, comfort and convenience, and excellent economy for great power and acceleration. My 2007 Azera makes the least noise with 170,000 miles and runs silky smooth and quiet after startup. (It takes a different cartridge.) A newer car will cost me much more than the repair in loan payments, taxes, insurance and will most certainly require maintenance, regardless. I'm going to try starting the engine just before I go to bed to see if I can reduce the drain back enough to eliminate the problem. Also, it could be that jogging the starter might be enough to get some oil pressure before allowing the engine to start, minimizing the onset of chain lash. I'll let you know how that goes with a follow-up.

I invite dispute and comment, especially if it will save me and others time, money, and aggravation!
Thanks for reading!

My ex girlfriend has a 2012 Azera, and it to is noisy on start up. 25k when purchased and about 40k when it started getting loud on cold starts. That being said oil changes every 3k religiously. So nothing to worry about? Who really know unless you keep the car forever, or tear down the engine yourself and look at all above mentioned!

 

[Cruizer]

New member warning...Glad to be here and share my experiences!
I have just had my 2012 Genesis Sedan at dealership to help with knocking issue at start-up. They changed the oil and filter twice for some reason?? The returned the car to me saying the engines are noisy and that maybe some time in the past the previous owner had oil changed at a place that did not use the correct oil filter, even though it had the correct one on it that day. The noise goes away if car was recently running when it is started again...sometimes.

I think it's the timing chain tensioner that makes the noise at start-up. The car runs really well. I have no other issues at all. It just sounds like a POS when I start it. Anyone have thoughts on my diagnosis??

Thanks!!

So I have 2011 4.6, fantastic ride.. but the whole start up thing with the little chatter and roughness would baffle me. So I started thinking about the electric steering pump and thought what if I push the start button twice and release, I wait till the singing stops plus a bit more then start....and wulla, no chatter and no roughness... its worked every time since then, you just have to wait long enough to push the button to start.

 

[carguy75]

I have a 2007 Azera, a 2011 Azera, and a 2009 Genesis, all with the 3.8L engine. The cars perform really well and are of generally good value for the money. I bought all three 'used' with an average of 75,000 miles. ALL THREE VEHICLES HAVE THE RATCHETY NOISE DURING COLD START, the 2011 Azera being the worst by far. Ironically, it has the lowest mileage of the three! The problem is definitely low oil pressure due to oil drain back. Either the oil filter or its mounting base, or the oil pump is failing to "check" drain back. The filter's check valve flapper is faulty, of inadequate design, or is not included in the cartridge or in the filter housing. Whichever the case, the end result is the same.

Because the filter housings are all mounted high on the engine, about as far away from the pump as you can get, drain back is severe. Before 'cold start', the filter housing is literally dry, along with all mechanical, lube-dependent devices down stream of the oil pump, for the amount of time needed to crank the engine and replenish the pressure head needed to lube. I checked two of my vehicles after overnight rest of around 12 to 14 hours by opening the filter housing and extracting the cartridge. Both cartridges didn't even drip and were nearly dry to the touch!

I installed new OEM filters, hoping to lessen or eliminate the problem. It did have some effect but did not correct the underlying cause, i.e. momentarily insufficient oil pressure to the chain tensioners due to retarded oil flow. There are two timing chains each with its own hydraulic pressure-regulated chain tensioner. There is also a third chain which is dedicated to driving the oil pump. There are two chain guides for each timing chain as well. The tensioners cannot do their job without oil pressure! And pressure will always be late in coming as long as drain back over an long period at rest is exhibited. The noise is clearly the result of one or more of several system flaws, i.e. NO Anti-Drain Back design provision in the oil system, or, a worn oil pump check valve or a worn or missing anti-drain back feature in the oil cartridge or filter housing.

While oil starvation-generated noise may not be apparent or even audible early in the life of the engine, the chain guides will likely wear dramatically over the span of some 50,000 to 80,000 miles worth of oil starve intervals when chain lash increasingly impacts them. This is not to mention the potential wear on the timing chains themselves and commensurate wear of the timing gear/sprockets due to chain lash. Of course, practically every moving or turning engine part needs oil and may well be affected if inadequate residual oil coating is not present. As you can see, there are many consequential opportunities for engine damage, at least in theory.

I feel the guides, chains and, most importantly, the tensioners and oil pump should be replaced. The parts are not the major cost, being mostly labor. The chains can easily be replaced once access to the other things mentioned are exposed, so replacing them and maybe even the sprockets is recommended. Then again, over $2,000 is a heavy commitment to a nearly nine-year old car. And, it remains to be seen just how much money can be justified when the full extent of real damage cannot be known without spending it. I can speculate the Hyundai engineers estimate the noise sounds worse than damage actually is. (Hyundai has been conspicuously quiet about this, save a bulletin advising use of the OEM cartridge.) It may last another 100,000 miles before a chain fails!

My wife and I love the cars and we own them! They have beautifully executed exteriors, provide good utility, comfort and convenience, and excellent economy for great power and acceleration. My 2007 Azera makes the least noise with 170,000 miles and runs silky smooth and quiet after startup. (It takes a different cartridge.) A newer car will cost me much more than the repair in loan payments, taxes, insurance and will most certainly require maintenance, regardless. I'm going to try starting the engine just before I go to bed to see if I can reduce the drain back enough to eliminate the problem. Also, it could be that jogging the starter might be enough to get some oil pressure before allowing the engine to start, minimizing the onset of chain lash. I'll let you know how that goes with a follow-up.

I invite dispute and comment, especially if it will save me and others time, money, and aggravation!
Thanks for reading!

My advice would to use full synthetic high mileage oil that will leave a protective film on the internal engine components to reduce wear. Hopefully, the issue with the improper start-up lubrication did not cause the timing chains to stretch and the wear down the guides/chain tensioners. Therefore, maybe synthetic high mileage oil will allow your engine to run longer without causing any additional wear at start-up.

 

[air540g]

It is cvvt noise. I replaced timing chain and cvvt by myself.

GENESIS BH: DIY replace timing chain+CVVT

 

[change741]

air540g; I like those pictures. What does CVVT stand for or mean?

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[Kraig Wilkinson]

air540g; I like those pictures. What does CVVT stand for or mean?

Continously Variable Valve Timing.

 

[Escuadronlafa]

New member warning...Glad to be here and share my experiences!
I have just had my 2012 Genesis Sedan at dealership to help with knocking issue at start-up. They changed the oil and filter twice for some reason?? The returned the car to me saying the engines are noisy and that maybe some time in the past the previous owner had oil changed at a place that did not use the correct oil filter, even though it had the correct one on it that day. The noise goes away if car was recently running when it is started again...sometimes.

I think it's the timing chain tensioner that makes the noise at start-up. The car runs really well. I have no other issues at all. It just sounds like a POS when I start it. Anyone have thoughts on my diagnosis??

Thanks!!

Mine was doing the same thing I did not like it it sounded crappy first thing when I started it after sitting for longer than a day.... I replaced a quart of oil with marvel misery oil my local mecanic told me about it..... The surprise it the rattle want away, now I use half quart of MMO when it's almost time to change the oil and it hasn't done that ever since hopefully do your research and maybe try it

 

[Ecourt24]

2013 sedan 3.8v6 79,xxxmiles .. always had a startup sound but recently became louder . Driving home one cold night I could hear sound ticking while I accelerate and then click .. my car shut off while cruising 40-45mph . mechanic says engine seized ...Warranty wants to check to make sure I easing abusing my engine before they pay for repair (oil changes - regular maintenance) .. which I was . I feel like the main factor in my mechanical problem is from the timing tensioner. I've looked up videos of the sound , it matches and on this forum it's a common issue I see . Just wondering if y'all could ease my mind or not, what y'all's advice on dealing with this would be ? Thanks in advance !

 

[Tristan Talo]

I heard it may be the motor mounts. Sound is present at cold start up. Seems to be gone after the engine is warm or the outside air temp has warmed up. Just from my experience. May wanna have someone watch your engine start or have a mounted camera/recorder over your engine bay.

 

[AndreJones36]

My advice would to use full synthetic high mileage oil that will leave a protective film on the internal engine components to reduce wear. Hopefully, the issue with the improper start-up lubrication did not cause the timing chains to stretch and the wear down the guides/chain tensioners. Therefore, maybe synthetic high mileage oil will allow your engine to run longer without causing any additional wear at start-up.

I’ve been advised to use full synthetic 10w-30 oil instead of the recommended 5w-30 oil. Mechanic is still diagnosing mines. I’ve had the dealership say it needs over 10k worth of repairs done but that’s what I paid for the dang car! Lol! 2012 Hyundai genesis 120k miles right now runs like a dream but @ cold startup that noise is bothering me

 

[joegr]

I’ve been advised to use full synthetic 10w-30 oil instead of the recommended 5w-30 oil. Mechanic is still diagnosing mines. I’ve had the dealership say it needs over 10k worth of repairs done but that’s what I paid for the dang car! Lol! 2012 Hyundai genesis 120k miles right now runs like a dream but @ cold startup that noise is bothering me

I think that you are increasing the wrong number there. 0W-40 might be better to try.

 

[Gunkk]

IMO...

If it chatters when cold but not when hot, then thinner is better. You want the oil to flow better when cold to lubricate the chattery bits, so lower viscosities will probably be better for you. Keep an eye on the dipstick as lower viscosities can get consumed a bit more on older cars (past the rings and valve seals, etc.).

Something like this perhaps:

Mobil 1™ 0W-30 Advanced Fuel Economy | Mobil™ Motor Oils

Mobil 1™ 0W-30 Advanced Fuel Economy low viscosity motor oil is engineered to help improve fuel economy.

www.mobil.com

 

[carguy75]

I’ve been advised to use full synthetic 10w-30 oil instead of the recommended 5w-30 oil. Mechanic is still diagnosing mines. I’ve had the dealership say it needs over 10k worth of repairs done but that’s what I paid for the dang car! Lol! 2012 Hyundai genesis 120k miles right now runs like a dream but @ cold startup that noise is bothering me

I would stick with the oil weight the manufacturer recommends in the owners manual. I would just use a full synthetic 5w-30 oil. However, changing the oil type and weight now will not solve the chain wear issue that has already occurred.

To prevent timing chain component wear and noise after the repair; change your oil no longer than 4k miles and use quality full synthetic oil.

 

[AndreJones36]

Try using a 5W-30 Full Synthetic like Mobil 1.

I was told to convert over to 10W-30 conventional oil, get a Wix oil filter and original STP additive my next oil change by an independent mechanic. He also mention that it should calm the noise down, but if it continues get the timing chain tensioner replaced. He also mentioned that its definitely not the timing chain that needs replacing. Which is sounding very hopeful.

 

[carguy75]

I was told to convert over to 10W-30 conventional oil, get a Wix oil filter and original STP additive my next oil change by an independent mechanic. He also mention that it should calm the noise down, but if it continues get the timing chain tensioner replaced. He also mentioned that its definitely not the timing chain that needs replacing. Which is sounding very hopeful.

If the mechanic has to change the tensioners then he may as well change the timing chains,guides and oil pump as well. Usually, the timing chains stretches when the tensioners are bad. The only way your mechanic will know if the chains are good or bad is when the front timing covers are removed, which is the hardest part of the job.

Just do all the timing chain parts(tensioners,guides,chain,oil pump) in one go.

I would check your owners manual first before using the 10w-30 oil. Too thick of an oil weight can cause more problems down the line like rod bearing wear.