Denouement

[Seejay]

Well, it’s been a fun three years, and I learned a lot, maybe more than I wanted to know.
I just took delivery on an absolutely cherry 2012 LS 460 and I am very pleased with it. I would like to think that I have gained an appreciation of it since I drove a 2015 Genesis sedan for the last three years.
This is going to be TL;DR, so you may want to stop here.
THE CARS: Many people would jump to conclusions about this, but it’s not that easy. The Lexus is more refined, but it does not have the poise on rough road surfaces that the Genesis exhibits. The driver of an S class once tried to shake me on a bad street under construction to no avail. Longitudinal damping is the equal of a Bimmer, best guess. Lotus earned their money. Lexus has a better brake pedal, by far. The Genesis steering is much better. The seats in the Lexus are better. On most road surfaces, the Genesis beats the Lexus, especially on small surface imperfections like expansion joints. The high beam switch on the Genesis is a delight to use, while the Lexus is merely (!) excellent. Et cetera. My Genesis was super dependable and always started right up—no funny business with the battery or electrical.
THE DEALERS: Well, the US Hyundai dealers are not Canadian, but some are exceptional. I said Hyundai and not Genesis. Until they are separate facilities, separate buildings, the culture will overlap, and that’s not good for Genesis. A potential luxury car buyer will be unimpressed. Toyota and Nissan understood automobile marketing in the US, but Hyundai will have to learn the hard way. My personal experiences bear this out. Under no circumstances would a Lexus dealer have let me pay to drill out the stud on a wheel hub to remove a defective locking lug nut. Neither would they have cut a rotor down to fix a problem with the brakes and call it done on a car with 200 miles on the odometer. Neither would they deliver a new car with a poor wheel alignment.
THE COMPANY: At Hyundai, customer care is corporate care. If you have to go to them because of a dealer, you have already lost. Repeatedly brow beating them over obvious issues takes all the joy of ownership away. I have watched them get much better at this. When my sunroof broke, I was driven to a Hertz rental office and given a car to drive until mine was fixed. So they are coming around. Occasionally, they have relapses. When I called my dealer and asked about an early turn in (paying the lease to maturity on a monthly basis, but turning the car in early), he advised against it, not saying (but hinting) that they would bungle it and mess up my credit. He advised to pay out the full amount, which I will do.
I want to thank everyone at Genesisowners for being there and here—we are a community. Solidarity. I will visit from time to time and say hello. Aloha.

 

[batmanmiami1]

I couldn't agree with you more about dealers & the company mentality in general. If the Genesis brand fails it will not be because of the product but the consumers experience with many dealers and the nonchalant attitude of Corporate. if I were "C" I would take a good hard look at K-Mart & Sears and see what happens when you take your customers for granite. Enjoy & good luck with your new ride.
Also a bonus - I learned the meaning of denouement, don't use that word much in the mountains of Miami

 

[NC356]

A well thought out message...thanks.
I've only been driving my '16 rwd 3.8 Ultimate for 3 months now; my alternate purchase would have been a '10-'12 "pre-spindle grill" LS460. Something made me go for all the safety systems in the Gen, so I took the plunge.
My dealer experience has mirrored yours.
But: my car has not been as satisfactory as yours.
Engine knock, flutter noise, differential whine on overrun, transmission slamming gears, rough idle: not good, and the dealer is no help at all so far. When I drive the Gen I am reminded of all the tests by the magazines of early issue cars: they end up saying repeatedly: "the factory assures us that will be addressed before production starts." My poor little Genny is just that way.
It's surprising to me you say "The Lexus is more refined, but it does not have the poise on rough road surfaces that the Genesis exhibits". My Gen absolutely beats me up on rough roads; my prior LS430 with 292,000 miles on the original shocks was head and shoulders above the Genesis on rough pavement.
And I'm seriously disappointed in the gas mileage this direct injection V6 makes; only 1-2 mpg better than the antique LS430 V8 on middle grade top tier gas.
So I find myself seriously reconsidering this Genesis. But after your input, I'll definitely take a test drive on rough roads in any LS460 before I plunge.

 

[Seejay]

A well thought out message...thanks.
I've only been driving my '16 rwd 3.8 Ultimate for 3 months now; my alternate purchase would have been a '10-'12 "pre-spindle grill" LS460. Something made me go for all the safety systems in the Gen, so I took the plunge.
My dealer experience has mirrored yours.
But: my car has not been as satisfactory as yours.
Engine knock, flutter noise, differential whine on overrun, transmission slamming gears, rough idle: not good, and the dealer is no help at all so far. When I drive the Gen I am reminded of all the tests by the magazines of early issue cars: they end up saying repeatedly: "the factory assures us that will be addressed before production starts." My poor little Genny is just that way.
It's surprising to me you say "The Lexus is more refined, but it does not have the poise on rough road surfaces that the Genesis exhibits". My Gen absolutely beats me up on rough roads; my prior LS430 with 292,000 miles on the original shocks was head and shoulders above the Genesis on rough pavement.
And I'm seriously disappointed in the gas mileage this direct injection V6 makes; only 1-2 mpg better than the antique LS430 V8 on middle grade top tier gas.
So I find myself seriously reconsidering this Genesis. But after your input, I'll definitely take a test drive on rough roads in any LS460 before I plunge.

My Lexus was delivered with new (and fairly cheap) Michelin Energy tires (close to the OEM on the Genesis) and they are just not that good. I let the Genesis go with some rather excellent Yokohamas. I consider my myself fortunate with the Genesis, but I was beginning to hear the flutter noise when cold, the sunroof was beginning to make its ominous sounds again, and the vibration was starting to manifest itself again. My LS460 has optional 19 inch wheels with 245/45 tire size and I believe most of the LS430s had higher profile tires providing a softer more comfortable ride. My Genesis had excellent longitudinal damping--the ability to recover quickly from dips and undulations of the road surface, as when you cross a highly crowned street at an intersection. The Genny usually bounced once, just like a Benz or a Bimmer.

 

[NC356]

Agreed about the longitudinal damping: the Genny is excellent.
I have Michelin Primacy MXM4 "Green" at 36 psi: do you think they could be the cause of the harshness over rough roads?

 

[carguy75]

A well thought out message...thanks.
I've only been driving my '16 rwd 3.8 Ultimate for 3 months now; my alternate purchase would have been a '10-'12 "pre-spindle grill" LS460. Something made me go for all the safety systems in the Gen, so I took the plunge.
My dealer experience has mirrored yours.
But: my car has not been as satisfactory as yours.
Engine knock, flutter noise, differential whine on overrun, transmission slamming gears, rough idle: not good, and the dealer is no help at all so far. When I drive the Gen I am reminded of all the tests by the magazines of early issue cars: they end up saying repeatedly: "the factory assures us that will be addressed before production starts." My poor little Genny is just that way.
It's surprising to me you say "The Lexus is more refined, but it does not have the poise on rough road surfaces that the Genesis exhibits". My Gen absolutely beats me up on rough roads; my prior LS430 with 292,000 miles on the original shocks was head and shoulders above the Genesis on rough pavement.
And I'm seriously disappointed in the gas mileage this direct injection V6 makes; only 1-2 mpg better than the antique LS430 V8 on middle grade top tier gas.
So I find myself seriously reconsidering this Genesis. But after your input, I'll definitely take a test drive on rough roads in any LS460 before I plunge.

I have a 2015 5.0 model, but I believe that both cars share a few issues and maybe solutions. I had a flutter noise, but it was from a incorrectly installed under body panel that was letting air flow into the engine bay. I installed the under panel correctly during my last oil change and the car is whisper quiet on the highway.

Even though my car can use 87 octane I do not use such low quality gasoline. Regular gasoline causes the engine to run rougher than it would with premium gasoline in my opinion. My dealer filled my car with 87 octane and it ran rougher than it does now with the Shell 93 octane I use. My engine runs buttery smooth with 93 octane with no knocking or rough idling.

I changed out my rear differential gear oil and the drive-train feels smoother and sound smoother than it did with the old gear oil. Maybe you just need to put fresh gear oil in the rear differential.

We have different automatic transmissions, but my shifts are very smooth and unnoticeable. However, the 5.0 uses the same transmission as the top of the line Equus.

Depending on your car mileage , maybe an transmission fluid change is in order. I always change my automatic fluid at about 60k miles due to my driving style and traffic conditions which works for me. I do not wait until over 100k miles before changing automatic transmission fluid unless I will be selling the car soon after it hit 100k miles.

 

[Seejay]

Agreed about the longitudinal damping: the Genny is excellent.
I have Michelin Primacy MXM4 "Green" at 36 psi: do you think they could be the cause of the harshness over rough roads?

Yes, at least that was my experience when I pushed the pressure up in them. For my car with the entry level package (Signature?), below 32 or above 35 (an amazingly narrow range) resulted in some harshness with the MXM4s. Most of SE Texas has stellar road surfaces, so I am unable to state anything categorically. It seems that a lot of forum members who had AWD Ultimates had a very hard time getting the rotating stock properly balanced. I suspect the QC of the stock wheels to be a possibility. A survey thread for all members who opted out of the stock wheels asking if their ride has improved since would be an idea, but it's difficult to be objective about these things.

 

[ckon]

Yes, at least that was my experience when I pushed the pressure up in them. For my car with the entry level package (Signature?), below 32 or above 35 (an amazingly narrow range) resulted in some harshness with the MXM4s. Most of SE Texas has stellar road surfaces, so I am unable to state anything categorically. It seems that a lot of forum members who had AWD Ultimates had a very hard time getting the rotating stock properly balanced. I suspect the QC of the stock wheels to be a possibility. A survey thread for all members who opted out of the stock wheels asking if their ride has improved since would be an idea, but it's difficult to be objective about these things.

FWIW, the stock wheels on my 2015 bent very easily on our Michigan roads - seemingly without any noticeable impacts. The techs showed me slight deformities in each of the four original wheels.

 

[FrankT]

I find this thread interesting, because I’ve been looking at the Genesis as a replacement for my LS430 that has 190,000 miles on it now. I’ve test driven both a 2015 5.0 and a 3.8 AWD Ultimate and while both were very quiet and nice to drive, my aging Lexus is STILL quieter and smoother riding than either of them.

 

[Seejay]

In a few years, I would like to shop for a used G90. My only concern, something pointed out by my wife, and now realize it bothered me is the A-pillar blind spots. They are gruesome.
But, she wanted me to say that she thought the Genny had the softest and most comfortable seat belts she's ever used.

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[FrankT]

I agree, the Genny seats are great! My wife is big on checking out riding in the back seats. For some reason she thinks the rear seat in the 5.0 Tech were more comfortable than the the 3.8 Ultimate we drove.

 

[Aquineas]

Seejay, sorry to see you go man; drop back in from time-to-time.

 

[DWIL80]

This thread interests me as well since I came from a 2010 LS 460 to a 15' 3.8 AWD sedan earlier this year. Seejay, I could see why you would be disenchanted with your car. I loved my LS 460, but I decided to get rid of it due to a combination of control arm issues, leaking rear air suspension struts, along with early signs of sticky dash and brake actuator issues. All of these items are known faults with the 460, and unfortunately very costly to repair. That said, the ride of the LS is unmatched in my opinion. The smooth power delivery of the V8 is great, and actually pretty darn efficient compared to the 3.8 in the genesis (although the V8 does require premium).

The tech of the LS is very dated at this point, but no one buys an LS 460 for the tech; it's all about the ultra lux ride and ownership experience you get from Lexus. Even the 2013-17 LS models have dated infotainment and tech IMO. Having said that, I believe that comparing a G80 / Genesis sedan to an LS 460 is a bit of a reach from a ride perspective. I test drove a G90 last week- now THAT is a LS 460 competitor. The G90 ride reminded me very much of the LS I had. The turbo 3.3t engine was very smooth and responsive, and the low end power reminded me the the V8 in the LS, along with the expanded wheelbase and length contributing to a smoother, more refined ride.

Best of luck with the LS!

 

[carguy75]

This thread interests me as well since I came from a 2010 LS 460 to a 15' 3.8 AWD sedan earlier this year. Seejay, I could see why you would be disenchanted with your car. I loved my LS 460, but I decided to get rid of it due to a combination of control arm issues, leaking rear air suspension struts, along with early signs of sticky dash and brake actuator issues. All of these items are known faults with the 460, and unfortunately very costly to repair. That said, the ride of the LS is unmatched in my opinion. The smooth power delivery of the V8 is great, and actually pretty darn efficient compared to the 3.8 in the genesis (although the V8 does require premium).

The tech of the LS is very dated at this point, but no one buys an LS 460 for the tech; it's all about the ultra lux ride and ownership experience you get from Lexus. Even the 2013-17 LS models have dated infotainment and tech IMO. Having said that, I believe that comparing a G80 / Genesis sedan to an LS 460 is a bit of a reach from a ride perspective. I test drove a G90 last week- now THAT is a LS 460 competitor. The G90 ride reminded me very much of the LS I had. The turbo 3.3t engine was very smooth and responsive, and the low end power reminded me the the V8 in the LS, along with the expanded wheelbase and length contributing to a smoother, more refined ride.

Best of luck with the LS!

Man you hit on the nose.

The Genesis/G80 sedan is a Lexus GS competitor while the G90/Equus is a Lexus LS competitor.

This thread is comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Seejay]

This thread interests me as well since I came from a 2010 LS 460 to a 15' 3.8 AWD sedan earlier this year. Seejay, I could see why you would be disenchanted with your car. I loved my LS 460, but I decided to get rid of it due to a combination of control arm issues, leaking rear air suspension struts, along with early signs of sticky dash and brake actuator issues. All of these items are known faults with the 460, and unfortunately very costly to repair. That said, the ride of the LS is unmatched in my opinion. The smooth power delivery of the V8 is great, and actually pretty darn efficient compared to the 3.8 in the genesis (although the V8 does require premium).

The tech of the LS is very dated at this point, but no one buys an LS 460 for the tech; it's all about the ultra lux ride and ownership experience you get from Lexus. Even the 2013-17 LS models have dated infotainment and tech IMO. Having said that, I believe that comparing a G80 / Genesis sedan to an LS 460 is a bit of a reach from a ride perspective. I test drove a G90 last week- now THAT is a LS 460 competitor. The G90 ride reminded me very much of the LS I had. The turbo 3.3t engine was very smooth and responsive, and the low end power reminded me the the V8 in the LS, along with the expanded wheelbase and length contributing to a smoother, more refined ride.

Best of luck with the LS!

Spot on, very informative. Thank you.
I couldn't help myself comparing the two, even though the G90 is the LS killer, in my book. For me, it's a matter of timing, pricing, and a lease ending, hence the thread title. I don't believe my LS 460 is bagged--I don't see it on the Monroney. The thing I miss the most from the Genesis at this moment is the subwoofer.

 

[Aquineas]

Seejay, I know you're enjoying that sunroof on the LS

 

[Seejay]

Seejay, I know you're enjoying that sunroof on the LS

Don't remind me. I console myself that it's like the one on a G90.