Dry Startup noise

[redhed]

FORD which has previously designed cars to have 10 year or 150,000 miles life has reduced the mileage life expectation to "beyond 100,000 miles" on vehicles that are operated on SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil.

HONDA only claims "useful life" as 7-years or 70,000 miles in EPA certifications for their CIVIC which uses SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil, while the previous model that utilized SAE 5W-30 Motor Oil was certified for 10 year or 100,000 mile durability.

Since both HONDA and FORD Warranty their NEW cars for ONLY 3-years or 36,000-miles the reduction in engine life expectancy is not a factor.

can you provide links for honda and ford that support what you are saying?

also, ford and honda both have standard 5yr/60k powertrain warranties...

 

[mikec]

When I had a question on something about my Genesis (low audio output of rear speakers) I just went back to the dealership and found the same sales guy and asked "may I listen to a few other new cars on the lot for comparison." He grabbed a handful of "keys", tossed them to me as his boss was calling him for something, and let me fire up a couple cars. All sounded like mine...

Starting a few V6s on the lot is trivially easy for the dealership - and doesn't cost them much of anything but it can make a big difference in customer goodwill. See if they'll start a couple cars like yours for comparison.

mike c.

 

[brihvac]

When I had a question on something about my Genesis (low audio output of rear speakers) I just went back to the dealership and found the same sales guy and asked "may I listen to a few other new cars on the lot for comparison." He grabbed a handful of "keys", tossed them to me as his boss was calling him for something, and let me fire up a couple cars. All sounded like mine...

Starting a few V6s on the lot is trivially easy for the dealership - and doesn't cost them much of anything but it can make a big difference in customer goodwill. See if they'll start a couple cars like yours for comparison.

mike c.

I started one on the dealers lot and it made the same noise

 

[Mark_888]

can you provide links for honda and ford that support what you are saying?

also, ford and honda both have standard 5yr/60k powertrain warranties...

Those are not my comments. I was quoting a website, for which I posted the link above.

 

[Mark_888]

I started one on the dealers lot and it made the same noise

I changed my oil two days ago to Mobil 1 5W-30 EP (Extended Protection) and the engine (V6) is definitely quieter than before. Of course, when you start the car cold, it revs up to almost 2000 rpm momentarily, and because of the top-side oil filter (which drains back into the crankcase), the engine tends to start a little "dry" and some start-up noise is going to be noticeable.

But with the Mobil 1 5W-30 EP, even start up is a little quieter. I filled up my gas tank today and went straight on the freeway, and got the MPG display up to 30.1 MPG after about 20 miles (average speed about 75 mph). Actual MPG may have been a bit less (but not much less).

For those who are not comfortable with 5W-30, I would recommend Mobil 1 0W-30 AFE (Advanced Fuel Economy). A 5-quart jug costs $22 at most Walmarts (you can take the jug to your dealer or whomever does your oil change) and save money over a synthetic oil "upgrade". For the time being there is $10 mail-in rebate available at the Mobil 1 website (promotions) for the AFE synthetic oils.

 

[MIKLO]

I've had my 6 cyl Genesis for about 6 months 3800 miles and I have heard a noise but maybe not "the" noise. After buying cars for over 40 years I have found that all cars have little things that they seem to do,IMO its a very common thing for an engine to sound a little "funny" when its first started. As many ppl have said it only last for a few seconds (until the oil gets sloshed around)and then goes back to "normal". A friend told me a fix for all noise problems many years ago........turn the radio up....... of course he was joking but it does remind me that running my head about a problem that may not be a problem has no solution.Im not saying don’t pay any attention to noises,Im saying I choose my battles wisely, after I find that all is well I (try to) move on.BTW overall I really like this car and haven’t really been this impressed by a car for a long time. Now I gotta plan a road trip and really get to enjoy this great ride.Load my iPod and turn up the voulme and enjoy the scenery.

MIKLO

 

[Solano]

Hello,
I'm new at the forum and I have a 3.8 with just over 500 miles. I have not heard of this problem to my Genesis but I will be listening during engine start up.

I am ASE and I acquired a repair manual for the Genesis. To clarify some of the misconceptions, the 3.8 uses a "Solid Shim" as valve lifters, therefore it doesn't need oil to "prime" the lifters as it would on engine with "Hydraulic Valve Lifters".

Engine lubrication: Every oil filter has a built in "Check Valve" to prevent oil from completely draining back into the oil pan. this is designed to provide a quick oil pressure build-up and engine lubrication during initial start up. The Genesis 3.8 uses an oil cartride, and looking at the repair manual, I could not tell where is the "Check Valve" located, but surely, there should be one, (as it would only make sense to have it).

WRT the use of oil weight: The repair manual also recommends 5-20W, there are many reason for recommending this oil. The engine has "Tight Tolerance" (clearance between moving parts), that it needs a thin oil to get into those passages. The oil actually "cushions" this moving parts to prevent wear. Additionally, this 3.8 engine uses Variable cam timing to maximize fuel and engine efficiency. The oil, via solenoid valves actuates the cam timing as commanded by the ECU. If the oil is think enough, and does not move the cam, it would significantly affect the engine performance.

I'm sorry to hear about the engine noise, but if I do hear it mine later on, I would try 5-30. I hope it is the injectors that are making noise, as I have heard noisy injectors before. If not, there are many other engine components that could make the initial noise, not completely eliminating the "valve shim", I also have seen valve shims that aren't within the specified thickness causing the noise, but if it is, the sound will stay regardless of warm or cold engine.

This doesn't give you the answer you need but I hope it would help some in getting to know the 3.8 engine a little bit.

 

[scottdk]

Hello,
I'm new at the forum and I have a 3.8 with just over 500 miles. I have not heard of this problem to my Genesis but I will be listening during engine start up.

I am ASE and I acquired a repair manual for the Genesis. To clarify some of the misconceptions, the 3.8 uses a "Solid Shim" as valve lifters, therefore it doesn't need oil to "prime" the lifters as it would on engine with "Hydraulic Valve Lifters".

Engine lubrication: Every oil filter has a built in "Check Valve" to prevent oil from completely draining back into the oil pan. this is designed to provide a quick oil pressure build-up and engine lubrication during initial start up. The Genesis 3.8 uses an oil cartride, and looking at the repair manual, I could not tell where is the "Check Valve" located, but surely, there should be one, (as it would only make sense to have it).

WRT the use of oil weight: The repair manual also recommends 5-20W, there are many reason for recommending this oil. The engine has "Tight Tolerance" (clearance between moving parts), that it needs a thin oil to get into those passages. The oil actually "cushions" this moving parts to prevent wear. Additionally, this 3.8 engine uses Variable cam timing to maximize fuel and engine efficiency. The oil, via solenoid valves actuates the cam timing as commanded by the ECU. If the oil is think enough, and does not move the cam, it would significantly affect the engine performance.

I'm sorry to hear about the engine noise, but if I do hear it mine later on, I would try 5-30. I hope it is the injectors that are making noise, as I have heard noisy injectors before. If not, there are many other engine components that could make the initial noise, not completely eliminating the "valve shim", I also have seen valve shims that aren't within the specified thickness causing the noise, but if it is, the sound will stay regardless of warm or cold engine.

This doesn't give you the answer you need but I hope it would help some in getting to know the 3.8 engine a little bit.

Wow excellent post Solano! I think this information is a great asset to the forum.

I have a clicking noise in my 4.6 that is not very loud, but audible. Dealer states that it is the fuel injectors (as you mentioned) that are noisy and all is well

 

[Mark_888]

Having done an oil change and removed the cartridge on the V6 I would say the oil in the filter does drain back into the crankcase. The other reason that I think the oil drains back into the crankcase is that the dipstick seems to read about 1/2 quart high after sitting for awhile (even with factory fill).

One of the things that makes the engine a little noisy at startup is that when the engine is cold (even 80 F) the engine idles for a a few seconds at almost 2000 RPM when first started. That seems execessive to me and not really necessary and a large part of the reason for the noise.

 

[MIKLO]

Hello,
I'm new at the forum and I have a 3.8 with just over 500 miles. I have not heard of this problem to my Genesis but I will be listening during engine start up.

I am ASE and I acquired a repair manual for the Genesis. To clarify some of the misconceptions, the 3.8 uses a "Solid Shim" as valve lifters, therefore it doesn't need oil to "prime" the lifters as it would on engine with "Hydraulic Valve Lifters".

Engine lubrication: Every oil filter has a built in "Check Valve" to prevent oil from completely draining back into the oil pan. this is designed to provide a quick oil pressure build-up and engine lubrication during initial start up. The Genesis 3.8 uses an oil cartride, and looking at the repair manual, I could not tell where is the "Check Valve" located, but surely, there should be one, (as it would only make sense to have it).

WRT the use of oil weight: The repair manual also recommends 5-20W, there are many reason for recommending this oil. The engine has "Tight Tolerance" (clearance between moving parts), that it needs a thin oil to get into those passages. The oil actually "cushions" this moving parts to prevent wear. Additionally, this 3.8 engine uses Variable cam timing to maximize fuel and engine efficiency. The oil, via solenoid valves actuates the cam timing as commanded by the ECU. If the oil is think enough, and does not move the cam, it would significantly affect the engine performance.

I'm sorry to hear about the engine noise, but if I do hear it mine later on, I would try 5-30. I hope it is the injectors that are making noise, as I have heard noisy injectors before. If not, there are many other engine components that could make the initial noise, not completely eliminating the "valve shim", I also have seen valve shims that aren't within the specified thickness causing the noise, but if it is, the sound will stay regardless of warm or cold engine.

This doesn't give you the answer you need but I hope it would help some in getting to know the 3.8 engine a little bit.

Well said and thanks for some well articulated thoughts,I lean toward the injectors but its just my opinion and I don't really know.I'm confident with the overall quality of my Genesis, and when and if I really have an engine problem I'm sure Hyundai will take care of the problem.So keep posting cause looks like so far your the only guy to have and use a book,which sure cuts to the chase.Thanks again.

MIKLO

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[Solano]

To follow-on WRT the 3.8 engine noise during initial start-up, I'm glad to hear the 10-30 Mobil-1 made a good improvement to the mileage and noise level to the engine. I more inclined to think, it may be the lifters that is causing the noise, but if goes away after two seconds, I wouldn't worry about it. That is normal for some engines.

As I posted, I only have over 500 miles to my Genesis and upon looking at the oil level using the dipstick, I can tell that there are minute metal particles in the oil. It's easy to tell, when you wipe off the oil in the dipstick with a clean light colored paper towel, (this is for new or rebuilt engines), you can see the towel have a somewhat black shade, as opposed to darker shade of color from you original oil. It is an indication of metal in the oil. this is normal as each new internal components are "mating or fitting " with each other.

Background: I worked on fighter aircraft and we do engine oil and hydraulic analysis a lot, so I know what to look for, granted we used special equipment to further analyze oil samples. For the record I haven't used our equipment to analyze my own engine oil. But if anyone is interested, there are companies out there who, for a fee, will analyze your oil. That may be extreme.

I also rebuild engines as a hobby, and this initial black oil color is a normal for an engine that is being "broken-in" but left on the engine at the recommended 7500 miles "may" and IMO can cause a long term effect to the internal parts. Perhaps the Hyundai OEM oil filter is of a very high quality designed to last that long. I have seen other Hyundai Forums that had compared other oil filters against aftermarket brand and they are saying Hyundai OEM oil filter is far better than aftermarket.

IMHO, and personally, I plan to change my Genesis oil at 1000K miles using conventional and OEM oil filter to get rid of the metal particles caused by the initial break-in, then to full Synthetic at 3000. I will document the replacement of the oil and OEM filter at 3000k Miles for warranty purposes. Then I'll go from there. People may think this is beyond normal, but I am relying heavily from my experience in Aviation in preventive maintenance.

Thanks for all the info, and I hope this help anyone in some ways.

 

[CanukV6]

I now have 20,000 miles on my 3.8 and it still makes a loud clatter every time I start from cold. It's even noticable when starting hot but not as bad. It is definitely the Lifters making the noise, not the fuel injectors. I reported it to my dealer a while back, but they gave me the usual "they all do that sir" response (which I guess is true) and told me not to worry about it. It amazes me that there isn't a check valve in the oil system to prevent complete drainback to the oil pan. I also don't like the immediate high idle at 2000rpm when it first starts up.

I haven't tried using Synthetic Oil yet as I am doing oil changes every 3500 miles, but I might try a fill of Mobil-1 just to see if it makes a difference. I have had great experience with Mobil-1 in other vehicles and it definitely quietened the valvetrain noise in my Mercedes Diesel. I have also noticed some gray deposits on the oil dipstick (although not metallic particles) but I am not sure if it is just oxidation of the dipstick metal above the oil line, as that's where it seems to come from.

 

[crupp]

To follow-on WRT the 3.8 engine noise during initial start-up, I'm glad to hear the 10-30 Mobil-1 made a good improvement to the mileage and noise level to the engine. I more inclined to think, it may be the lifters that is causing the noise, but if goes away after two seconds, I wouldn't worry about it. That is normal for some engines.

As I posted, I only have over 500 miles to my Genesis and upon looking at the oil level using the dipstick, I can tell that there are minute metal particles in the oil. It's easy to tell, when you wipe off the oil in the dipstick with a clean light colored paper towel, (this is for new or rebuilt engines), you can see the towel have a somewhat black shade, as opposed to darker shade of color from you original oil. It is an indication of metal in the oil. this is normal as each new internal components are "mating or fitting " with each other.

Background: I worked on fighter aircraft and we do engine oil and hydraulic analysis a lot, so I know what to look for, granted we used special equipment to further analyze oil samples. For the record I haven't used our equipment to analyze my own engine oil. But if anyone is interested, there are companies out there who, for a fee, will analyze your oil. That may be extreme.

I also rebuild engines as a hobby, and this initial black oil color is a normal for an engine that is being "broken-in" but left on the engine at the recommended 7500 miles "may" and IMO can cause a long term effect to the internal parts. Perhaps the Hyundai OEM oil filter is of a very high quality designed to last that long. I have seen other Hyundai Forums that had compared other oil filters against aftermarket brand and they are saying Hyundai OEM oil filter is far better than aftermarket.

IMHO, and personally, I plan to change my Genesis oil at 1000K miles using conventional and OEM oil filter to get rid of the metal particles caused by the initial break-in, then to full Synthetic at 3000. I will document the replacement of the oil and OEM filter at 3000k Miles for warranty purposes. Then I'll go from there. People may think this is beyond normal, but I am relying heavily from my experience in Aviation in preventive maintenance.

Thanks for all the info, and I hope this help anyone in some ways.

I also changed mine a 1k, just in case. Better safe than sorry!

 

[faylo]

from my experience on working on these hyundai, the v6 is the lambda engine.. and these engines use to suffer from lack of oil pressure going to the timing chain tensioner causing a rattling sound agaisnt the timing cover.

when you let your car sit for a few days then start it the lifters are probably starving of oil that mite be the sound you are possible hearing.

 

[alanjyoung]

Yes, but my problem went from tapping to a significant noise.
I posted a thread today to express my problem. The dealer says it is normal.
Have you resolved your problem??

alanjyoung

 

[BocaDave]

Did anyone try STP? Did it work?

Did anyone overfill the crankcase with 1/2 quart or a full quart of oil? Over the years, on other cars I've found this MAY help with starting noises, but some writers infer that it causes foaming of the oil in your engine, and possibly fouls your spark plugs, not good things if true.

 

[ehayden1]

My genesis also makes a noticeable clatter for about 10 seconds when starting in the morning. I have 25k miles on it. It doesn't seem to go away after oil changes, etc. But it does stop after 10 seconds and it hasn't gotten louder from when I first noticed it. Reminds me of the sound an older car makes when the oil has drained down to the crank case. I hear it from the driver's seat with the windows up. After 10 seconds, it runs quiet as a mouse inside. I am still surprised how quiet this car runs at highway speeds. Other than "thumps" from the tires, passengers snoozing wouldn't know the car was moving.

 

[healeybob]

Every car has the same problem, Therefore it is a design problem. It bothers me to, but I don't think they can do anything about it. The oil filter is mounted high and seems to drain between starts. It also seems like the oil pump is taking a few RPM's to get the oil up into the lifters. I would suggest installing some Z tek or something like it to protect your engine components. I dont think it will hurt anything other than it is annoying. Other than that I really like the car.

 

[hans]

Newbie... my 1st post.. My 2009 Genesis V6 also makes this startup noise.. I bought it used and it has about 20,000 miles on it. I have a 2005 Accord Hybrid that I just gave to my wife (189,000 miles and still drives like its new).. when it starts up... nothing ... absolute engine whir is all you hear. I always attributed the difference to the fact that the Honda has a timing belt, while the Genesis has the chain.... ive been assuming that its taking the 5-10 seconds to get the oil there... I use 0-30 Mobile 1 in the genesis, and 0-20 Mobile 1 in the Honda..

 

[thom000001]

IT is most likely the timing chain adjusters just taking a few seconds to get some oil pressure....had a G35 coupe that did the exact same thing (but it was a lot louder).

Tom

Newbie... my 1st post.. My 2009 Genesis V6 also makes this startup noise.. I bought it used and it has about 20,000 miles on it. I have a 2005 Accord Hybrid that I just gave to my wife (189,000 miles and still drives like its new).. when it starts up... nothing ... absolute engine whir is all you hear. I always attributed the difference to the fact that the Honda has a timing belt, while the Genesis has the chain.... ive been assuming that its taking the 5-10 seconds to get the oil there... I use 0-30 Mobile 1 in the genesis, and 0-20 Mobile 1 in the Honda..