Ethanol Questions I haven't seen answered

[bsantelli]

Hi - new owner of 2012 Genesis 3.8 (tech/prem pkg). I have a few questions about ethanol I haven't seen answered in all of the posts I searched here.

1) Disregarding performance or mpg - is there any reason to use non-ethanol fuel? for example, I know that in mowers, ethanol can cause premature aging/failure of rubber parts, and have seen warranties not honored due to the use of ethanol. I don't care about increased mpg or improved performance (for sake of this discussion) but do care about keeping my engine in the best possible condition and in that vein, is non-ethanol better?

2) Presuming there are benefits in using ethanol (again excluding performance/mpg), what would be the impact of using ethanol-free every other tank full versus all non-ethanol?\

3) Every pump that contains ethanol, only ever says "can contain up to 10% ethanol". Does anyone know the actual % most gas stations contain? does it vary widely by state? brand? season? and would a gas station owner know the exact % at any given time?



Appreciate the feedback,

Brian

 

[Mark_888]

I believe that in metropolitan areas where pollution may be a problem (just about any large city and its suburbs) then 10% ethanol is mandated by the EPA, at least during certain seasons. I would google this subject to get information from primary sources (like the EPA) or maybe Wikipedia (which will usually have links to primary sources) instead of relying on second or third hand information in a forum.

 

[Jimmmmbo!]

In Minnesota, we don't get any choice unless one drives a qualifying vintage car. 10% mix is all we can get.

Even better yet, in 2005 MN passed a law requiring the use of 20% ethanol by 2013. Idiots. Hopefully, we'll find a way to repeal that one. This will definitely destroy things in cars.

 

[Mark_888]

In Minnesota, we don't get any choice unless one drives a qualifying vintage car. 10% mix is all we can get.

Even better yet, in 2005 MN passed a law requiring the use of 20% ethanol by 2013. Idiots. Hopefully, we'll find a way to repeal that one. This will definitely destroy things in cars.

One of the crazy things about ethanol is that it requires huge amounts of agricultural lands to be used to produce fuel instead of food, thereby driving up the cost of food, and causing food shortages and even starvation in parts of the world. This includes increases in the cost of meat, since agricultural products are wildly using as livestock feed. Not to mention that a lot of energy is used in the production of agricultural products for ethanol.

 

[Jimmmmbo!]

One of the crazy things about ethanol is that it requires huge amounts of agricultural lands to be used to produce fuel instead of food, thereby driving up the cost of food, and causing food shortages and even starvation in parts of the world. This includes increases in the cost of meat, since agricultural products are wildly using as livestock feed. Not to mention that a lot of energy is used in the production of agricultural products for ethanol.

This is pretty much the reason for the law passed in 2005 by the MN legislature. They're trying to boost the need for corn growing so the farmers can make a better profit. In the meantime, we all suffer inflation because of it.

In the meantime, other parts of the world are starving. Gotta love the People's Republic of Minnesota.

 

[bsantelli]

I believe that in metropolitan areas where pollution may be a problem (just about any large city and its suburbs) then 10% ethanol is mandated by the EPA, at least during certain seasons. I would google this subject to get information from primary sources (like the EPA) or maybe Wikipedia (which will usually have links to primary sources) instead of relying on second or third hand information in a forum.

I can get ethanol here, I am one of the lucky ones (Harrisburg Pa).

The problems with your suggestion, is that the epa is biased. I understand there are other sources, but was looking for opinions from this group.

 

[bsantelli]

One of the crazy things about ethanol is that it requires huge amounts of agricultural lands to be used to produce fuel instead of food, thereby driving up the cost of food, and causing food shortages and even starvation in parts of the world. This includes increases in the cost of meat, since agricultural products are wildly using as livestock feed. Not to mention that a lot of energy is used in the production of agricultural products for ethanol.

I understand, and agree, but was trying to avoid this type of discussion and was trying to limit it to 3 distinct questions. Don't get me started on the intrusion of the government, but was hoping to get opinions on 3 very specific questions.

 

[Mark_888]

The problems with your suggestion, is that the epa is biased. I understand there are other sources, but was looking for opinions from this group.

I wasn't suggesting you check with EPA website to get opinions about whether the ethanol hurts your car, just to find out what the regulations are for areas that are required to use ethanol (including the percent required).

Actually, there have been studies that using ethanol hurts humans in addition to whatever bad it does to your car. I am sure you find info on that also.

 

[bsantelli]

I wasn't suggesting you check with EPA website to get opinions about whether the ethanol hurts your car, just to find out what the regulations are for areas that are required to use ethanol (including the percent required).

Actually, there have been studies that using ethanol hurts humans in addition to whatever bad it does to your car. I am sure you find info on that also.

Thanks, wasn't so worried about the regulations since I can get ethanol free gass 2 mins from my home (.50 more a gallon though). Just trying to figure out if I want to go that route or not (again, not taking into consideration performance or mpg (or any greater good to the planet for that matter), but solely on the good of the engine. (I am already convinced ethanol is not good from a geopolitical perspective.)

 

[TJPark01]

Thanks, wasn't so worried about the regulations since I can get ethanol free gass 2 mins from my home (.50 more a gallon though). Just trying to figure out if I want to go that route or not (again, not taking into consideration performance or mpg (or any greater good to the planet for that matter), but solely on the good of the engine. (I am already convinced ethanol is not good from a geopolitical perspective.)

Ethanol is a boondoggle. No need to go into the reasons, as any rational human being can see for themselves.
Solely it is probably not good for the engine in the long run. Although most of this is unproven because it's still unknown what long term effects E10 will have on modern cars. (it is definitely not good for older cars who's fuel lines may be more sensitive to corrosion).
It's been explained to me that ethanol blended gasoline has more of a tendency to attract moisture. Moisture in your fuel system is bad. How this plays out over the life of the car is unknown. I for one don't want to be the guinea pig.

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[Platgen]

The site, pure-gas.org, allows a search of ethanol free gas stations.

 

[tompass]

Ethanol is a huge problem for boaters. Ask me how I know....

 

[QuantumRift]

I have one word: BUTANOL. Butanol can be used a a fuel in an UNMODIFIED automobile, and is made from the same feedstock as ethanol.
(as in "biobutanol")

(look it up and educate yourselves - to not blindly repeat what you've 'heard' or repeat skewed "studies" and reports..)

This is the stuff that should be exciting us:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butanol_fuel

http://nabc.cals.cornell.edu/pubs/nabc_19/NABC19_5Plenary2_Ramey.pdf

http://www.biobutanol.com/

but I digress:
A 10% BLEND does NOT significantly affect MILEAGE or PERFOMANCE. A 10% blend only reduces the amount of available BTUs a small percentage, so that the overall loss is about 3% in mileage. Which can be made up for by changing your driving habits.

Check out these good documentaries:

"Fuel"
"Gashole"
and
"King Corn"

Corn-based ethanol is a short-term way to kick-start the industry, but cellulose-based ethanol is the ultimate goal. And beyond that, the 2nd generation fuel is bioBUTANOL.

 

[Jimmmmbo!]

Back to the original topic:

Every manufacturer providing cars to the US has warranted their product to work with E10 fuel. Nobody wants ethanol in their cars, but reality is that most of us can't avoid it. So any damage caused is covered by the manufacturer. In the case of Hyundai, it should be 10yrs/100,000mi.

At the same time, nobody wants to deal with the possibility if they can help it.

Honestly, I know of no evidence that shows that a catastrophic breakdown of a vehicle occurred solely because of the use of E10. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but convincing anyone of it is a bit like convincing everyone of global warming. People will just argue their case forever.

Use the E10. Your MPG will not be as good, but your engine is likely to survive just fine. Their are plenty of other things that will go wrong before your engine gives you major problems.

Just my 2 centavos.

 

[bsantelli]

Back to the original topic:

Every manufacturer providing cars to the US has warranted their product to work with E10 fuel. Nobody wants ethanol in their cars, but reality is that most of us can't avoid it. So any damage caused is covered by the manufacturer. In the case of Hyundai, it should be 10yrs/100,000mi.

At the same time, nobody wants to deal with the possibility if they can help it.

Honestly, I know of no evidence that shows that a catastrophic breakdown of a vehicle occurred solely because of the use of E10. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but convincing anyone of it is a bit like convincing everyone of global warming. People will just argue their case forever.

Use the E10. Your MPG will not be as good, but your engine is likely to survive just fine. Their are plenty of other things that will go wrong before your engine gives you major problems.

Just my 2 centavos.

Thank you - your advice makes sense, and is logical. I appreciate it.

 

[mikec]

When ethanol was first proposed for cars, the design & materials used in existing cars were not always compatible. Cars old enough to have carburetors, and early fuel injected vehicles, might have materials that can be affected by ethanol. Ethanol can attack certain types of rubber - fuel hoses, couplers, and o-rings. Ever since ethanol was proposed as a fuel, most car makers have been covering themselves, using materials compatible with it to avoid future issues. If I remember correctly, it was Nissan that did a big recall of their early fuel injected cars "due to an unforeseen change in fuel blends." With fuel injection, the fuel hoses are pressurized quite a bit (as much as tires typically and lately, with direct injection far far higher) so any fuel leak doesn't dribble fuel, it sprays it everywhere... like onto hot exhaust parts. That's what Nissan feared.

It's also bad for folks that don't drive often - alcohols absorb moisture/humidity. So if you park your car with half a tank of fuel for a while the chances of rust in the tank are higher. Those that fill up every few days, because they drive a lot, won't see this problem as much. Water in the fuel also trashes the fuel injectors over time - their guts will rust too.

For carbureted cars, the fuel system pressures are much lower so leaks tend to spray only a little bit if at all. But carb guts (lots of rubber and gaskets) can get attacked by ethanol blends. Since it only leads to stranded cars, and/or cars that don't run properly or flunk emissions, most states "don't care" because such problems are not safety hazards - if anything, it'll convince those folks to "trade in those old heaps and buy new cars" - generating sales & higher registration/property taxes. If you live close to your job and don't drive much and thus have older cars - and are responsible about keeping them maintained - you get screwed by this attitude. As TJPark01 noted, most government types pushing ethanol are doing to as a way to subsidize farmers. Gets 'em votes.

mike c.

 

[bsantelli]

For the benefit of others, I have found my question to #3. Gas Station owners do NOT know how much ethanol is in their gas, and it can range wildly from one gas station to the other, and even one batch to the other at the same gas station.

I bought an ethanol test kit here (http://www.shopeaa.com/alcoholtestkit.aspx) so that I can see if any of the local gas stations are more consistently under 10% than others.

 

[hwks1]

Hi - new owner of 2012 Genesis 3.8 (tech/prem pkg). I have a few questions about ethanol I haven't seen answered in all of the posts I searched here.

1) Disregarding performance or mpg - is there any reason to use non-ethanol fuel? for example, I know that in mowers, ethanol can cause premature aging/failure of rubber parts, and have seen warranties not honored due to the use of ethanol. I don't care about increased mpg or improved performance (for sake of this discussion) but do care about keeping my engine in the best possible condition and in that vein, is non-ethanol better?

2) Presuming there are benefits in using ethanol (again excluding performance/mpg), what would be the impact of using ethanol-free every other tank full versus all non-ethanol?\

3) Every pump that contains ethanol, only ever says "can contain up to 10% ethanol". Does anyone know the actual % most gas stations contain? does it vary widely by state? brand? season? and would a gas station owner know the exact % at any given time?

1. No reasons at all to use ethanol but their are plenty of reasons NOT to use ethanol -at all.... there are political socioeconomic reasons as others have mentioned but, if your primary concern is keeping your engine in the best possible condition then you don't even need to ask... DONT USE IT

2. When you decide the answer to #1 and #3 you make your #2 question irrelevant.

3. Nobody knows what '%' you are actually pumping into yoour car and that's one of the problems.

 

[hwks1]

I bought an ethanol test kit here (http://www.shopeaa.com/alcoholtestkit.aspx) so that I can see if any of the local gas stations are more consistently under 10% than others.

No offense - but what an enormous waste of time. I guess it satisfies curiosity so go for it. Much easier to just not use it in the first place.

 

[Aquineas]

No offense - but what an enormous waste of time. I guess it satisfies curiosity so go for it. Much easier to just not use it in the first place.

Easier said than done. I can't any gasoline-only stations in Austin.