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from their lies you will know them.

Billfz1

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Forum guys and girls,
When making a search for Genesis information the other day I got a thread that directed me to one of the BMW sites. I actually found myself laughing when I read an obviously fictional thread about a 3 series dusting off of all things a Hyundai Genesis R-spec sedan. To say that we have their attention would be the understatement of the century! The R spec has become the fodder for bragging rights. The way they were talking about the Genny made me think of the Harry Potter movies when they can't even say the name of their arch enemy. Even funnier was when some of the other bimmer guys were calling BS on the guy telling him he was making things up! You know you have their respect when they need to set you up as their windmill to tilt at. I thought you would be amused.
Bill
 
Forum guys and girls,
When making a search for Genesis information the other day I got a thread that directed me to one of the BMW sites. I actually found myself laughing when I read an obviously fictional thread about a 3 series dusting off of all things a Hyundai Genesis R-spec sedan. To say that we have their attention would be the understatement of the century! The R spec has become the fodder for bragging rights. The way they were talking about the Genny made me think of the Harry Potter movies when they can't even say the name of their arch enemy. Even funnier was when some of the other bimmer guys were calling BS on the guy telling him he was making things up! You know you have their respect when they need to set you up as their windmill to tilt at. I thought you would be amused.
Bill

I saw that post also. There are plenty of Genesis-haters out there among BMW and Audi owners. Oh well, they can continue to pump premium gas and support their dealer's and independent mechanic's kid's college tuition as far as I am concerned.

We drove through St. Louis three days ago on our way to Florida, and my wife dusted off a 3-Series trying to do an axx-hole pass-on-the-right maneuver where lanes disappear in a construction zone near downtown. It was effortless, of course. She had never used all the R-Spec's power before and made a remark like, "he won't try that again."

:D :D
 
my wife dusted off a 3-Series trying to do an axx-hole pass-on-the-right maneuver where lanes disappear in a construction zone near downtown. It was effortless, of course.
:D :D
That's just as much fun to do to those guys as it is to do to those kids who think their cars are just as good as those in "The Fast and the Furious." The "furious" part is appropriate, because that's how they feel afterwards.

XD
 
From an Acura forum -- don't know how true the stats are --

"At any rate, I don't think the RLX will sell. It's 50k to 60k for a sedan that (mostly, not direct 1-1) feature set of the Hyundai Genesis, and a badge that is as effective at moving $50,000+ cars as Hyundai's is. Not to mention, nearing 50k will get you a 5.0 L V8 Genesis that will muller every vehicle Honda/Acura makes to 60mph. While I wouldn't get a 46k (realistically, they are moving for 40k) Hyundai, I wouldn't get a dressed up FWD Accord for 50k, either. Even a loaded 3 series would be better, unless if I was ferrying people in the backseat for a living. If that made such a big deal to people in the US, the Audi A4 LWB and BMW 3 series LWB would of been made available in the US (they are in other markets).

Although the Genesis R-Spec has 429hp, its actual performance numbers aren't exactly that impressive relatively speaking. The TL 6MT is just a tenth of a second slower to 60mph and 1/4 mile. The $30k Accord 6MT on the other hand has the same trap speed at 103mph. A E550 4matic with 30 less hp carrying an extra 200lb is significantly faster (0-60mph in 4.3s thanks to launch, 1/4 mile at 12.8s@112mph, where the trap speed indicates its far superior actual power). Perhaps the 429hp in the Genesis stands for 429 hyundai power? Even a BMW 550i with 400hp is doing 0-60mph in 4.8s and 1/4 mile in 13.1s@109mph. There's also the Audi S6 with 420hp that does 0-60mph in 3.7s and 1/4 mile in 12.1s@115mph.

Now, that's what I'd called getting owned. How on earth does a car with the highest horsepower, 8AT, lightest curb weight, be that much slower to cars that are heavier and with less power?

Perhaps that's one of the reasons the price tag is much lower?"


Here's the real problem with Acura, Genesis & the Chrysler 300 SRT8 (which is supposed to be one heck of a car) -

"Rave reviews also may not be enough to help elevate the Chrysler brand in the eyes of potential luxury buyers. While 90 percent of the performance for half the price indicates a good bargain, that isn’t what drives the luxury market, Toprak said.

“On paper, it’s a far better choice,” Toprak said. “But that’s not what luxury is about. It won’t matter if you compare features and benefits of the 300 or the Benz. Most luxury buyers won’t listen, because most won’t want to be seen in the 300.”

http://washpost.bloomberg.com/Story?...H3CCQHUNM33EVH


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Although the Genesis R-Spec has 429hp, its actual performance numbers aren't exactly that impressive relatively speaking. The TL 6MT is just a tenth of a second slower to 60mph and 1/4 mile. The $30k Accord 6MT on the other hand has the same trap speed at 103mph. A E550 4matic with 30 less hp carrying an extra 200lb is significantly faster (0-60mph in 4.3s thanks to launch, 1/4 mile at 12.8s@112mph, where the trap speed indicates its far superior actual power). Perhaps the 429hp in the Genesis stands for 429 hyundai power? Even a BMW 550i with 400hp is doing 0-60mph in 4.8s and 1/4 mile in 13.1s@109mph. There's also the Audi S6 with 420hp that does 0-60mph in 3.7s and 1/4 mile in 12.1s@115mph.
I think the problem is the transmission. This thing is really slow shifting compared to every other car I have owned. These acceleration time differences are in tents of seconds, and we are losing more than a couple tents in the shifts.
 
The problem is TORQUE...pretty much all the Germans put down 400+ ft-lbs at low RPMs compared to the R-spec's max 376 ft-lbs at 5000 RPM:o

Acceleration is more about torque, not HP. The Tau is an excellent first V8 for Hyundai, but most rival V8s have been refined for generations and are still better at actually putting out the power.
 
The problem is TORQUE...pretty much all the Germans put down 400+ ft-lbs at low RPMs compared to the R-spec's max 376 ft-lbs at 5000 RPM.
That too. My BMW was laying down something like 80% of its max torque at 1,500 RPM.
 
The problem is TORQUE...pretty much all the Germans put down 400+ ft-lbs at low RPMs compared to the R-spec's max 376 ft-lbs at 5000 RPM:o

Acceleration is more about torque, not HP. The Tau is an excellent first V8 for Hyundai, but most rival V8s have been refined for generations and are still better at actually putting out the power.

Nah... That's not true.. Acceleration is almost all HP.. Low end TQ only plays in for the first second. After that RPMs are high and HP is king..
 
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As I understand it, torque only comes into play for passing, otherwise vehicles with diesel engines would be way faster than those with gasoline engines given the massive amounts of torque just off idle.

As for the comparison of the R Spec and the 550i, the R Spec is every bit as fast as the 550i, at least before BMW added more power for 2013. Right now M-B, BMW and Audi are in a power struggle and any one of their engines, especially those with forced induction, is making way more power than what is claimed.
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Nah... That's not true.. Acceleration is almost all HP.. Low end TQ only plays in for the first second. After that RPMs are high and HP is king..

Yes...you are actually correct, hence why the Germans are still a few tenths quicker! That first second is crucial acceleration when running competitive 1/4 miles and 60 mph times. For 1/4 miles...most every car will need to shift 2 or 3 times, losing torque at the shift point is a momentum killer.
 
Hyundai genesis is a nice car and will beat 328s... id wager it'd be even with 335i... and will get destroyed by a tuned 335i.

From a dig the genesis suck and quarter mile of 13.5 is right in line with 335i.

4200 lb car with crappy trans and traction control.

Id take the genesis to the mat any day in my 3 series.... though id take the genesis home. Dont need the bmw bs.

People on both sides need to accept reality and stop being badge whores

Ppp
 
The slow shifts of the 8 speed makes the Genesis a tenth slower accelerating I am sure but I feel the REAL reason it earns moderate time slips is the very intrusive ESC system. Unplug the ESC system and you notice the difference in the seat of the pants while accelerating.
 
Right now M-B, BMW and Audi are in a power struggle and any one of their engines, especially those with forced induction, is making way more power than what is claimed.
I think this has been true for 20 years. My two BMWs were way quicker than their specs and comperably powered cars. I always suspected power was much higher than published.
 
I think this has been true for 20 years. My two BMWs were way quicker than their specs and comperably powered cars. I always suspected power was much higher than published.

That has been true for quite some time, but now they have seemingly upped the ante. The times their cars are putting out are absolutely ridiculous compared to the stated power levels.
 
Horsepower vs. Torque

Which do you care about - horsepower or torque??? This question is raised quite often by enthusiasts who are confused about claims made by various people. The situation is confounded by those who answer the question claiming to be experts, but who aren't, and who give misleading or outright incorrect information. Here is my attempt at a straightforward answer - enough detail for the techies, but simple enough for the non-engineers to understand.

Definitions:
First, we need a clear definition of the terms. This will help the information presented later make more sense.

Horsepower: 1 hp = 33,000 lb-ft / min.
One horsepower is the ability to lift 33000 pounds one foot in one minute, or 1 pound 33000 feet in one minute.

Torque: Torque = force x moment arm. (units are lb-ft for Americans)
One pound foot of torque is produced by a one pound force at the end of a one foot lever. (Think of a wrench one foot long - a one pound force at the end of this wrench will produce one pound foot of torque.)

Now lets consider what we're interested in. Most often for an enthusiast, we want our vehicle to either accelerate faster or go faster or both. How does this happen? The vehicle drive system produces a force at the point where the drive wheel/tire contacts the road, and this force must be greater than the resistance to motion. To the extent that the force exerted by the tire onto the road surface exceeds the resistance to motion of the vehicle, the vehicle will accelerate. For the vehicle to remain at a constant speed, the force exerted by the tire onto the road must equal the total resistance to motion of the vehicle. The resistance to motion is the total of all of the friction, rolling resistance, and air resistance that is exerted on the vehicle, and these values of resistance change as the speed of the vehicle changes. If the force generated at the tire contact point is greater than the total resistance of the vehicle, the vehicle will accelerate. The greater the difference between the tire force and the resistance, the faster the vehicle will accelerate. This is described by the equation F = m * a, where F is the net acceleration force (total force minus the total resistance), m is the mass of the vehicle, and a is the rate of acceleration.

So, if we increase the force generated at the point where the drive wheel/tire contacts the road, we will increase the acceleration rate of the vehicle. (This is a fundamental point, so make sure you understand this before you go on.) The wheel/tire is connected to the drive axle, which is connected to the engine through the transmission and final drive system. The force generated by the drive wheel/tire is at a distance from the center of the drive axle (the tire rolling radius, to be specific.) Thus, the force at the tire contact point with the road is the result of a torque generated by the axle (force x distance = torque). Therefore, increasing the torque on the drive axle will cause the vehicle to accelerate more quickly. (It's really quite simple, isn't it?) Therefore, what I really care about in getting my vehicle to accelerate more quickly is more torque at the drive wheels!

Horsepower is just the torque divided by time. I'll explain more later.

There are several ways to accomplish the objective of creating more torque at the drive wheels.

The first is done every time a vehicle is accelerated from a stop. The transmission is engaged in 1st gear. The torque is multiplied by the reduction ratio of the transmission, increasing the torque at the drive wheels. That is why your little pony accelerates faster in first gear than in second. The consequence of doing this is to limit the speed of the vehicle, as the engine may red-line at somewhere between 20 and 60 mph, depending upon the ratios involved and the allowable speed of the engine. The transmission has no effect on the horsepower output of the vehicle, but it does change the torque available at the drive wheels.

A second way to improve acceleration is to put a higher (numerically) ratio final drive in the vehicle. The torque available at the drive wheels is the engine torque multiplied by the transmission ratio multiplied by the final drive ratio. Let's just use some hypothetical numbers to make the math easy. Let's say for an example that the engine has 200 lb-ft of torque all across the usable speed range (a gross oversimplification); let's have a final drive ratio of 3:1, a rolling radius of 1.25' (15" radius, 30" diameter tire); and let's say that the transmission ratios are 3:1 (1st), 2:1 (2nd), 1.5:1 (3rd), 1:1 (4th), and .75:1 (5th). So, the torque available at drive wheels in first gear is 200 (engine torque) x 3 (first gear ratio) x 3 (final drive ratio) = 1800 lb-ft. (The force at the point where the drive wheels contact the road is a total of 1800 lb-ft / 1.25 ft (rolling radius) = 1440 lb.) If we change the final drive ratio to 4:1, the first gear torque will be 200 x 3 (first gear ratio) x 4 (final drive ratio) = 2400 lb-ft. This is a 33% increase in drive wheel torque, and it will result in dramatically improved acceleration. (It will also increase engine speed on the highway, resulting in lower fuel mileage, increased noise & engine wear, and a lowered top speed of the vehicle.) The final drive ratio has no effect on the horsepower of the vehicle, but it does affect the torque available to the drive wheels.

A third way to create more torque at the drive wheels is to increase the power output of the engine. Increasing the power output of the engine may be done in several ways, some of which increase torque and some of which do not, and some of which improve acceleration and some do not. This may seem confusing. How can all these statements be true? It has to do with the shape of the torque curve over the engine speed range. Let's talk more about horsepower. Let's take our example engine that (simplistically) has 200 lb-ft of torque all across the speed range. Engine horsepower is calculated like this:
hp = torque(lb-ft) x speed (rpm) x 2 x 3.14 (pi) / 33,000 (or torque x speed / 5252)

So, our example engine (with 200 lb-ft. of torque) at 6000 rpm generates 228 horsepower. This same engine operated at 3000 rpm generates only 114 horsepower, even though it still generates 200 lb-ft of torque! If our engine is allowed to run 7000 rpm, the horsepower is increased to 266!

Let's take a second example engine that has 200 lb-ft. of torque at 3000 rpm, but where the torque gradually falls to 125 lb-ft at 6000 rpm. (This is more typical of the performance of a street engine.) This engine will produce a maximum of 143 horsepower at 6000 rpm, although it will produce 114 horsepower at 3000 rpm like the first engine. This engine also benefits from having its red-line increased, as its maximum horsepower will be increased to about 166 horsepower.

From this discussion we learn that the easiest way to increase the power of most street engines is to run them faster, increasing the horsepower, but not increasing the torque - which in many cases would improve the acceleration of the vehicle.

Now this is more confusing - how could it possibly increase acceleration if it doesn't increase torque? - didn't we say it takes more torque to increase acceleration? Remember that when we start the vehicle from a stop in first gear, the torque available at the drive wheels is the engine torque multiplied by the transmission ratio multiplied by the final drive ratio. Let's just use the example engine/drivetrain from above. The torque available at drive wheels in first gear is 200 (engine torque) x 3 (first gear ratio) x 3 (final drive ratio) = 1800 lb-ft. For our simple case of an engine with a flat torque curve where the torque is 200 lb-ft all across the engine speed range, this value doesn't change as the engine accelerates. When the engine reaches red-line, we shift to second gear. Now, the torque available at the drive wheels is 200 x 2 (second gear ratio) x 3 (final drive ratio) = 1200 lb-ft. For a vehicle with these characteristics, increasing horsepower by increasing the red-line (without increasing torque) would improve the acceleration, because during the time the engine is accelerating from 6000 rpm to 7000 rpm, we are still in first gear with a wheel torque of 1800 lb-ft, which means we are accelerating faster than if we were in second gear. However, with our second example engine, at the red-line the torque is 125 lb-ft, so the rear wheel torque has fallen to 125 x 3 x 3 = 1125 lb-ft. In this case, running the engine faster to increase horsepower would not improve acceleration, since 2nd gear at 200 lb-ft results in 1200 lb-ft of drive wheel torque. In the case of the first engine, the fastest acceleration is achieved by running the engine to the red-line, but in the case of the second engine, the fastest acceleration is achieved by shifting to second slightly prior to red-line, so as to maximize drive wheel torque. So, in order to know if increasing power through increasing the top speed of the engine will help your vehicle accelerate, you need to know the shape of the torque curve of your particular engine. If the torque curve has a pronounced peak in the mid-range, raising the red-line may not help acceleration at all, even though it probably raised the horsepower of the engine.

A fourth way to improve acceleration is by increasing the torque output of the engine. Increasing the horsepower of the engine without increasing the speed at which it runs requires increasing the torque output. Increasing engine torque will always improve the acceleration of the vehicle because that increased torque flows through the driveline to where it increases the torque to the wheels. When a claim is made about increased engine horsepower, always look at the graph to see if the power is raised across the speed range, or if the engine is just being run faster. (Increased engine horsepower from 200 to 230 at a speed of 4000 rpm requires a corresponding increase in torque, increasing the engine horsepower from 200 to 230 by running it faster does not.)

So, which is more important - torque or horsepower? Well, both are important, but torque at the drive wheels is what's really important to the performance of your vehicle.



About the author:
Fred Wucherpfennig has a degree in mechanical engineering. He has worked as a licensed professional engineer for over 20 years. He has numerous patents for various inventions, and has extensive experience with designing, building, modifying, and repairing vehicles of many types.
 
This is a reasoned explanation. Truly, without getting technical, HP is a measure of work. Force over distance. Torque of a non supercharged engine is a function of fuel, compression ratio and a complex relationship of crank throw to rod length. There is a practical limit to the pressure you can safely generate in the cylinder before detonation sets in. So if all other factors must remain equal you must run higher RPM to increase power. Note that F1 cars are all limited as to displacement and fuel, so a fast shifting transmission and SUPER high rpm rule the day. They now limit rpm to 18,000, that's right 18k! So they wont grenade as many engines. My point being that the slow shifting transmission is probably on of the biggest limitations on the Genesis right now.
Bill
 
Do you think an engine putting out 175 ft-lbs if torque would accelerate a Genesis very well?



Well, how about an engine putting out 1000 hp??? That would probably be quite fast, wouldn't it?


How about if the engine is the same???????????????


How about a gas turbine?


Hp is what accelerates a car and determines how fast it will go. Torque may make it easier to drive and reduce the number of gears if the torque stays pretty level over a wide rpm range, but hp gets you to the finish line first.
 
Do you think an engine putting out 175 ft-lbs if torque would accelerate a Genesis very well?



Well, how about an engine putting out 1000 hp??? That would probably be quite fast, wouldn't it?


How about if the engine is the same???????????????


How about a gas turbine?


Hp is what accelerates a car and determines how fast it will go. Torque may make it easier to drive and reduce the number of gears if the torque stays pretty level over a wide rpm range, but hp gets you to the finish line first.

This is true, but peak HP is not the be all and end all. It is area under the HP curve in the RPM range that your gearing leaves you in (probably 4,500 - 6,000 for most gas engines).
 
Peak acceleration is more a function of gear ratios that put the engine in its sweet spot with torque and HP. The flatter the torque curve AND the HP curve, the better acceleration you will have. More gears sometimes helps, speed of gearshifts somewhat, but more for your butt dyno and anything else. This doesn't require an engineer!
 
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