Genesis + 1" of snow = Major fail!

[ttsig]

ttsig you don't know what goes on at Hyundai and I recommend a business class. My feeling is that Dunlop has known for a while that that brand of tire was poorly reviewed and wanted to unload a large quantity. Maybe Dunlop is in the red or on the verge of bankrupcy. If cars aren't selling then tires aren't selling. I am willing to bet money that they offered Hyundai a sweetheart deal like-"If you buy 300,000 of them, we'll sell them to you for $10 a piece". Now if the next decent tire would have cost Hyundai $21 a tire... then by going with Dunlop, Hyundai is saving $3,300,000 in costs. I don't know the actual costs of car maker tires. I'm just making an educated guess. Maybe someone on this site knows--

First of all, I don't need a business class, I understand business quite well, I was simply pointing out the fallacy of your idea that Hyundai picked these tires to make the vehicle affordable. Using your own scenario above, "better" tires would only cost $44 more per vehicle, which wouldn't impact the affordability of the vehicle one bit. My guess is that even the best tires wouldn't increase the cost more than a few hundred dollars, still not really impacting the affordability. Hyundai could increase the cost of the vehicle that much and not be out any money and remove one of the biggest complaints around the vehicle.

What if the Genesis came with the best tires of any luxury vehicle while still be the value that it is (although perhaps a few hundred dollars more)? That would have certainly put the others on notice and give us even more bragging rights. Not a huge negative, but it could have been a huge positive.

 

[Disaster]

I don't think Hyundai chose these tires quite as insidiously as some people suggest. Car companies rely on the tire manufacturer's information regarding many factors regarding performance. I doubt Hyundai even did snow or ice testing with these tires. Mostly tires are tested for rolls per mile, dry handling, friction (fuel economy) and NVH. These tires are also OEM spec'd on the Mitsubishi Lancer GTS, Lexus IS250 (including the AWD) and GS460 and Toyota Sequoia and Tundra trucks, and the Mazda 5 and 6 and Saab 9.7. I would not be surprised if Dunlop didn't use the fact that these tires were OEM to Lexus to sway Hyundai's opinion toward them.

Dunlop aggressively marketed these tires to the manufacturers. It isn't uncommon for tire manufacturers to sell tires as OEMs at very small margins because they know many customers will put the exact same tires on their vehicles when it come replacement time. Most customers, at least the ones that shop at TireRack, did not replace them with the same tires...certainly not the ones that drove on snow and ice.

 

[ttsig]

I hope you don't think I believe that there was anything "insidious" regarding Hyundai picking this tire. I actually think there may have been good reasons for picking the tire, like maybe it delivered the best dry track performance during testing, which would be important during initial reviews. I still think it was a poor pick overall, but not a catastrophic pick by any means, and certainly not "insidious".

 

[Disaster]

Insidious might be a bit strong but several people have suggested that Hyundai might have known about the poor performance but traded that off against getting the tires cheap. I suspect they didn't realize how bad the tires would be in the snow or how important it is to their customers to have tires with snow capability or they were swayed by the tires good dry track performance (like you suggest) or a combination of all three.

I will say (knowing this will be controversial) that it is negligent to drive the Genesis with these tires in the snow and ice. Anyone who continues to drive this car with these tires, in snow and ice conditions, endangers themselves, their passengers lives and other drivers on the road. Even slow speeds with these tires are too fast because stopping and steering is horribly compromised. Either, park it and bum a ride, rent a ride, or take public transportation, or go out and buy some real winter tires. The cost of any of those choices is WAY less than the possible cost of the consequences of driving on the Dunlops in winter conditions. What is your life and families life worth to you?

 

[flyboy2]

Disaster I already have a mother. Thank you.

 

[Disaster]

Disaster I already have a mother. Thank you.

Why am I not surprised by your answer?...oh yeah, I've read some of your other flippant posts....

It might be a long shot, but if my post causes just one person to think and change their behavior it will be a success... Worst case I'll take some shots from people like you. I can handle that.

 

[BacktoHyundaibychoice]

Why am I not surprised by your answer?...oh yeah, I've read some of your other flippant posts....

It might be a long shot, but if my post causes just one person to think and change their behavior it will be a success... Worst case I'll take some shots from people like you. I can handle that.

Well, I'm not usually flippant but I had the same reaction to your know-it-all lecture. No disrespect, but I suspect people are in more danger from the AWD vehicles going too fast for conditions than me cautiously driving my Genny with the Dunlops.
Winter tires > than ANY all season tire on ANY vehicle. And even with them there'll be idiots driving them.

 

[mcginnpm]

In the 1st century AD, when the emperor Vespasian had the Colosseum built from travertine limestone and volcanic tufa, vice the vastly superiour granite, I must admit I was quite miffed. Of course I had no input in that decision, much as none of us on this forum today had any say in which tire Hyundai put on the Genny, unless you had a name like Chung Ju-Yung.

The Dunlop SP Sport 5000 was a known bad actor in snow long before the first Genny was ever sold. Maybe the engineers at Hyundai bought into global warming and figured their cars wouldn't need snow tires for the next century. Who knows? Who cares? Unless you've got a time machine, you can't change the fact that all current Gennys come with the OEM Dunlops...no matter how much you complain about Hyundai's business model, their production decisions, testing or marketing research. It's water under the bridge. It's spilt milk. Crying ain't gonna change that fact.

At the end of the day you can do one of four things: 1) buy some other car, 2) buy the Genny with the existing tires and live with them, 3) buy the Genny and put your favorite tires on it, or 4) wait and see if Hyundai will build a Genny with the tires you want on it. Everything else is just whining, complaining and griping. You bought the car. I assume no one held a gun to your head when you did. I assume you adequately researched your $40,000 purchase. If you've got unconstructive complaints about the car you bought, talk to the guy in the mirror. If you have constructive complaints (or better yet, solutions), then this forum is the place for them.

What we can do in this forum is: 1) identify weaknesses with the current OEM tire (which has been done ad nauseum on this forum), 2) identify recommended replacement tires and the conditions they are good in (which continues to be done on this forum), and 3) highlight both of these facts to Hyundai so that they might change their ways (which hopefully their "spies" are doing by monitoring this forum...if they are smart).

Unless someone has evidence of gross malfeasance by Hyundai or Dunlop or a dealer, all the things people "suggest Hyundai might have known" are just opinion and heresay. What is known, from about 6 years worth of reviews, is that the Dunlop SP Sport 5000 is pretty much garbage in snow. If that makes you a risk on the road, if that puts your family in danger, then 1) don't drive, 2) buy a better tire for your conditions, or 3) buy a car with the tire and performance you need.

 

[Disaster]

I suspect people are in more danger from the AWD vehicles going too fast for conditions than me cautiously driving my Genny with the Dunlops.
Winter tires > than ANY all season tire on ANY vehicle. And even with them there'll be idiots driving them.

I agree that the idiots flying down the road in their SUV's with worn all-seasons are a problem but I wonder if it is possible to drive slow enough to make the Genny safe in snow and ice and how slow do you have to go before you become dangerous by driving too slow?

Yesterday we had a light snow in the morning and my wife passed someone who had slid off the on ramp. Most traffic was moving close to regular speeds but it was obviously a problem if you didn't have good tires, like that poor person obviously didn't.

My wife was driving the Genny with Michelin X-Ice2's. I can only imagine how slow she would have to have driven on the stock Dunlops.

What happens when an annoyed person passes you crawling along in your Dunlops, at an inappropriate spot, or rear ends you because he wasn't ready for her to be going one quarter the speed limit? As they say, speed kills...or more appropriately, too much speed kills, but it has also been proven difference in speed kills too. In fact, some studies suggest difference in speed is a bigger factor in accidents than increased speed.

Of course your best bet is to stay off the roads when they aren't clear...but that can be horribly inconvenient when you need to get somewhere; to or from work, for example.

 

[BacktoHyundaibychoice]

I agree that the idiots flying down the road in their SUV's with worn all-seasons are a problem but I wonder if it is possible to drive slow enough to make the Genny safe in snow and ice and how slow do you have to go before you become dangerous by driving too slow?

(Yes, it is.)

Yesterday we had a light snow in the morning and my wife passed someone who had slid off the on ramp. Most traffic was moving close to regular speeds but it was obviously a problem if you didn't have good tires, like that poor person obviously didn't.

(If most traffic is moving at close to regular speeds, so am I.)

My wife was driving the Genny with Michelin X-Ice2's. I can only imagine how slow she would have to have driven on the stock Dunlops.

(I can't imagine, glad you can.)

What happens when an annoyed person passes you crawling along in your Dunlops, at an inappropriate spot, or rear ends you because he wasn't ready for her to be going one quarter the speed limit? As they say, speed kills...or more appropriately, too much speed kills, but it has also been proven difference in speed kills too. In fact, some studies suggest difference in speed is a bigger factor in accidents than increased speed.

(Yes, me and the Dunlops could certainly cause annoyance and unsafe behavior in others. But 1/4 of the posted speed limit? This is my second snowy winter with this car, and if I'm doing 25 in a 40 so are others. Except the annoyed and irresponsible. You make it sound like the Genny doesn't move at all. Now that I think about it, it's your hyperbole/exageration that's annoying.)

Of course your best bet is to stay off the roads when they aren't clear...but that can be horribly inconvenient when you need to get somewhere; to or from work, for example.

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[flyboy2]

Disaster--

Is there anywhere we can send you money so you can keep up with these "pearls of wisdom".

By the way, I love speed and if it is done safely at the right place, the right time and with the right equipment... it is GOOD!

McGinn-- good post Leave it to a Marine to bring quiet to the battlefield--

 

[BacktoHyundaibychoice]

Mcginnpm:

Great post, thx!

 

[realpix]

BTW I just drove back from a few days in central Pennsylvania with 18+ inches of snow in my Genesis and no problems whatsoever, even on unploughed streets and parking lots.

What kind of tires (tyres) do you have?

Thanks.

 

[Disaster]

Disaster--Is there anywhere we can send you money so you can keep up with these "pearls of wisdom".

I knew my post would fire people up so I'm not surprised at the reaction. It is great to go after someone by calling them "holier than thou" and other goodies, but is it possible "thou dost protest too much?" Is it possible one might be rationalizing why it is OK to drive on inferior tires? I certainly haven't been perfect in that regard. Years ago I drove in all kinds of conditions when I shouldn't have...even drove my motorcycle in the snow. I'm not proud of that behavior and hope my kids don't do something so stupid.

Here is another "pearl" for you...relative to BTHBC's post.

There is a law of driving that goes something like this, "Everyone driving slower than you is an old Grandma and should get out of your way. Everyone driving faster is a crazy lunatic that should lose their license."

(Yes, me and the Dunlops could certainly cause annoyance and unsafe behavior in others. But 1/4 of the posted speed limit? This is my second snowy winter with this car, and if I'm doing 25 in a 40 so are others. Except the annoyed and irresponsible. You make it sound like the Genny doesn't move at all. Now that I think about it, it's your hyperbole/exageration that's annoying.)

You might find exception with my suggestion of 1/4 speed, but how about explaining how you can drive the Genesis, with it's clearly inferior tires, at "25 in a 40" as "are others." Shouldn't you be driving it slower than others?!?..or do they all just happen to have crappy tires too?

I learned my lesson the hard way...but it could have been worse. My son, put our Volvo into the wall during a light snowfall. Obviously he outdrove the tires, but this would been much less likely if the tires weren't 2 year old all seasons.

 

[BacktoHyundaibychoice]

Disaster:

1. If I ruled the world, snow tires would be mandatory in the snow belt from Dec 1-Apr 1.
2. Your Grandma/lunatic line is a strawman. Easy to knock down since nobody said anything like that.
3. What % of drivers do you think have snow tires? The vast majority use all seasons all year. The difference between them and me is they have weight over the drive wheels, I didn't. It's amazing what even 100 pounds of cat litter in the can do to improve handling and traction. So that yes, even the Dunlops can go 25 in a 40 as safely as (once again) the vast majority.
4. Your assertions as to the Dunlops undrivability do not match my experience. Hence my assertion that you exagerate. Do I wish they were better? Of course. Have I had to relearn RWD winter skills? Absolutely! But I grew up driving RWD and it was like riding a bike to do it again. As in any car, the secret is to not overdrive it.
Anyway, the tone of your post(s) is what prompted me to reply in the first place. I have a sister in law who also knows what everyone else should and shouldn't be doing. She tends to the same "extremes" in her arguments, thereby avoiding and ignoring the "moderate" middle.
Once again, nothing personal. I say your mileage may vary, others say no it has to be this way.
On edit: please excuse typos and misspellings. Doing this from my phone. On edit again: While driving. In the snow.
Hee.

 

[Disaster]

1. If I ruled the world, snow tires would be mandatory in the snow belt from Dec 1-Apr 1.
3. What % of drivers do you think have snow tires? The vast majority use all seasons all year. The difference between them and me is they have weight over the drive wheels, I didn't. It's amazing what even 100 pounds of cat litter in the can do to improve handling and traction. So that yes, even the Dunlops can go 25 in a 40 as safely as (once again) the vast majority.
4. Your assertions as to the Dunlops undrivability do not match my experience. Hence my assertion that you exagerate. Do I wish they were better? Of course. Have I had to relearn RWD winter skills? Absolutely! But I grew up driving RWD and it was like riding a bike to do it again. As in any car, the secret is to not overdrive it.

1. I think that would save a lot of lives....just like it has been proven to do where required in Canada.

3. While extra weight in the back might keep you straighter...it isn't going to help you stop any faster. To think that is to make the same mistake as people who drive 4WD's in the winter.

In TireRack's test on ice, it took their summer tires 47 feet to stop from only 10mph. All seasons took 40 feet and winter tires 21 feet. This suggests you need to drive at least 1/2 as fast with the Dunlops...and probably even slower as they are closer to summer tires than all seasons.

http://www.tirerack.com/videos/index.jsp?video=26&tab=winter

4. Knowing how to drive RWD in the winter is a plus but it doesn't change winter Physics and it won't compensate for the lack of traction of the Dunlops when you need to stop.

 

[scottdk]

This thread is finished. Thank you

 

[saccojos]

Yep. I bit the bullet and bought Dunlop winter tires from TireRack. They were delivered in 2 days and installed. They are great in the snow. Considering these are performance tires (both the winter and so called all season tires) they won't last much past 25K miles anyway. I will change to winter tires in Nov and back again to all season in March.

 

[nb_mike]

I was raised in Milwaukee and drove rear drive the entire time. I now live outside Evansville IN and have had several front rear drive....the Genesis is my first rear drive in many years and have very little trouble driving in this winters snow. The trick is SLOW DOWN and leave room between cars as well as look ahead to watch for lights and other traffic.Avoid Sudden starts or stop. Patience is a must....try putting some heavy weights such as salt bags etc that will also help...I haven't found the need....I will admit that front drive is better in snow than rear.

 

[ctrcbob]

OK, I've stayed off this thread, but now, I will give my two cents worth.

1. In years past, I drove many RWD cars in deep snow using regular tires, even before the days of "Radial" tires. I drove Buicks (bias), 'Cuda 340 (wide bias), GrandAm (radial), then a lot of FWD cars, all with either summer tires or M+S tires (all weather). None of these cars had "Posi-Traction". My father taught me how to drive in February in Rochester NY, (SNOW COUNTRY). Never had problems as my father taught me right.

2. My "other" car, the 02 Continental FWD has Mastercraft (M+S) tires which I love, and would put them on the Genesis if only they made it in the Genesis size. A couple years ago, I was called to a family emergency in Rochester in early November. Snow storm while there, but the Continental with Mastercraft tires had no problems.

3. This past December, I drove out to Roswell with my Genesis. North/West Texas and Eastern New Mexico had a snow storm just two days before. US-380 was clear but once in Roswell and Ruidoso, there was still snow on the side streets. (lots of snow in Ruidoso). It is my understanding that the 4.6 has "Traction Control" but the 3.8 does not. (Don't know if traction control means Posi-Traction or that it means that when one drive wheel starts to spin, the brakes on that wheel engage). I had no problems getting the car to start moving, even up hill while on the ice. When a tire would loose traction, the ESC lamp would come on and the car would jerk, and regain traction.

Now here is something a lot of people don't know, as I have not seen it mentioned in this thread.
When you are stopped and you want to get going again, rather than leaving the car in Drive, flip the shift lever to the right manual position, then while still stopped, push the lever forward into 2nd. When you start moving, you will get less torque and more traction, vice using 1st. Works great. Don't know for sure if the 3.8 with the Aisin Transmission works like that, but thats how the 4.6 with the ZF Transmission works.

As for traction while moving, in curves, or stopping at stop signs or stop lights, you just have to drive slower, Matter of fact, you have to do everything slower, gas, brake, steering. You can't change the laws of physics!