Genesis is 3rd best selling brand in Korea for May

[YEH]

Genesis - 12,960 (35,571 YTD)

G70 - 613 (3,734)
G80 - 7,582 (14,584)
GV80 - 4,164 (13,279)
G90 - 601 (3,974)

Stinger - 164 (1,091)
K9 - 601 (3,290)

The G80 is the 5th best selling model in Korea, after the Grandeur (13,416), Avante (aka Elantra), Sorento and K5.

All the models are new or refreshed; sedans (in particular larger sedans) still sell very well in Korea as can be seen by Grandeur, K5 and G80 sales.

The new G80 likely put a dent into G90 sales.

For comparison:

Mercedes - 6,551

C Class - 722
CLS - 723
E Class - 2,794
S Class - 508


In one month, the G80 outsold or did about what the Lexus GS did in the US for each of the past 3 years.

GS sales:

2019 - 3,378
2018 - 6,604
2017 - 7,773

 

[MyCorvette]

Due to the culture factor, a vehicle model's sales in its home country does not indicates its superior/inferior performance/quality/marketing capabilities compared to other competitors, so I only take your stats just for "FYI" purpose, and the comparison is meaningless.

Even for a foreign brand, the same model's sales may be significantly different between two countries. For example the Audi A6, in China typically one month of its sales volume is approx. equal to its whole annual sales in US. Does this mean A6 is a better/worse car objectively speaking? E Class/A6's US/KDM sales are both much worse than G80's KDM sales, does it mean G80 is better than A6 or E class?

On the other hand, Genesis had entered the Chinese market between 2014 - 2016 (with the Hyundai Genesis sedan), but its sales was so bad (so close to nothing that even Hyundai senior management agreed it is negligible), therefore Genesis vanished after 2016 in China. Does it mean the Genesis sedan is a bad design?

 

[Ragnar]

Thought the no.1 seller in China was still the Moped !!

 

[YEH]

Due to the culture factor, a vehicle model's sales in its home country does not indicates its superior/inferior performance/quality/marketing capabilities compared to other competitors, so I only take your stats just for "FYI" purpose, and the comparison is meaningless.

Don't know why you keep repeating the same thing over in these type of posts, as no one is insinuating that the 2 markets are similar; in fact, have stated many a time that Hyundai is not stupid (as some have suggested) to have started out w/ lux sedans due to the popularity of such body-style in its domestic market.

And the point is to show the viability/profitability of the brand.

Strong sales in Korea means $$ that Genesis can re-invest into updated or new models.

And w/ strong sales of the G80 in Korea, that means that the G80 is not in danger of disappearing anytime soon like the Japanese competitors (GS, Q70, RLX), even if sales here are relatively modest (still, should retake the 3rd spot from the A6) here.

The Japanese competition never sold well in Japan - which is why w/ declining US sales, those auto-makers decided to discontinue them.

There are rumblings from Jag that they may combine the XE and XF into one model and that it likely will have a hatch, so that would be another competitor that may disappear.

A major reason why the Stinger may not see a 2nd gen is b/c domestic sales are low.

The Azera/Grandeur never sold well here and got discontinued, but despite that, the Grandeur is not in any danger in getting canceled as it's the best selling model in Korea.

 

[MyCorvette]

Don't know why you keep repeating the same thing over in these type of posts, as no one is insinuating that the 2 markets are similar; in fact, have stated many a time that Hyundai is not stupid (as some have suggested) to have started out w/ lux sedans due to the popularity of such body-style in its domestic market.

And the point is to show the viability/profitability of the brand.

Strong sales in Korea means $$ that Genesis can re-invest into updated or new models.

And w/ strong sales of the G80 in Korea, that means that the G80 is not in danger of disappearing anytime soon like the Japanese competitors (GS, Q70, RLX), even if sales here are relatively modest (still, should retake the 3rd spot from the A6) here.

The Japanese competition never sold well in Japan - which is why w/ declining US sales, those auto-makers decided to discontinue them.

There are rumblings from Jag that they may combine the XE and XF into one model and that it likely will have a hatch, so that would be another competitor that may disappear.

A major reason why the Stinger may not see a 2nd gen is b/c domestic sales are low.

The Azera/Grandeur never sold well here and got discontinued, but despite that, the Grandeur is not in any danger in getting canceled as it's the best selling model in Korea.

Sales volume does not dictate a vehicle program's long term sustainability, instead it is its profit margin that matters. For example if Genesis set the G80's MSRP to be only $1, I am sure GMA can sell billion units of this car model in US, but this act will bankrupt Hyundai within a year.

Not sure what is the actual "OTD" price of G80 in KDM, or whether people in Korea like to haggle about the price when buying cars. As of 2018, Korea GDP per capita is around 1/2 of the US, so this means, either consumers in KDM are so into cars that they are willing to spend more percentage of their income on cars, or Hyundai/Genesis prices their cars lower (or provides bigger discount) in KDM that makes the actual purchase price cheaper than in US.

One of the main reasons that Lexus sedan does perform well in US, is due to the Yen appreciates against US dollars in the recent years, so the sedan models' profit margin is very low; also US/China consumers (the two largest auto market in the world) like SUV more than sedans, so Toyota is not motivated to consistently improve its sedan lineup. Plus, consumers in Japan does not like big sedans (even the IS is considered somewhat "big" in JDM), all these factors caused the demise of the GS.

 

[YEH]

Sales volume does not dictate a vehicle program's long term sustainability, instead it is its profit margin that matters. For example if Genesis set the G80's MSRP to be only $1, I am sure GMA can sell billion units of this car model in US, but this act will bankrupt Hyundai within a year.

And you know what the profit margins are on the new G80 in Korea?

After a few lean years, Hyundai saw a spike in its profit from domestic sales of the F/L G90 and the Palisade (and the F/L G90 never sold anywhere as well as what the G80 did last month).

Genesis vehicles in Korea have always made more profit for HMG than sales in NA (esp. as they have more higher end options/amenities) - which is why they offered something like the Genesis Prada.

Not sure what is the actual "OTD" price of G80 in KDM, or whether people in Korea like to haggle about the price when buying cars. As of 2018, Korea GDP per capita is around 1/2 of the US, so this means, either consumers in KDM are so into cars that they are willing to spend more percentage of their income on cars, or Hyundai/Genesis prices their cars lower (or provides bigger discount) in KDM that makes the actual purchase price cheaper than in US.

Do you always like pontificating on stuff you have little clue about?

SK is one of the largest and most profitable markets for luxury auto-makers.

Despite a pop. one-third the size of Japan's, SK is actually a more important market for the German lux makes.

The 1st performance driving center BMW built in Asia was in SK and not in Japan or China.

Mercedes sold 100k E Classes within the past 3 yrs in Korea.

The Korean market the 3rd largest market for combined E and S Class sales after China and the US (and at times has surpassed the US).

BMW sold more 5 Series in Korea during the 1st Q than in the US.

From Jan. to May, sales of imported mode;s over $82.500 comprised of 15,667 vehicles (yeah, SK has a real wealth gap problem).

One of the main reasons that Lexus sedan does perform well in US, is due to the Yen appreciates against US dollars in the recent years, so the sedan models' profit margin is very low; also US/China consumers (the two largest auto market in the world) like SUV more than sedans, so Toyota is not motivated to consistently improve its sedan lineup. Plus, consumers in Japan does not like big sedans (even the IS is considered somewhat "big" in JDM), all these factors caused the demise of the GS.

The Lexus RWD sedans weren't performing that well sales-wise when there was a favorable exchange rate.

And no, when it comes to luxury vehicles, the China market still prefers large sedans (which is why they get special LWB variants).

And the Japanese market is not devoid of larger lux sedan sales either - as can be seen in healthy sales by MB and BMW (albeit not to the heights in SK) and in the Toyota Crown series.

 

[MyCorvette]

And you know what the profit margins are on the new G80 in Korea?

After a few lean years, Hyundai saw a spike in its profit from domestic sales of the F/L G90 and the Palisade (and the F/L G90 never sold anywhere as well as what the G80 did last month).

Genesis vehicles in Korea have always made more profit for HMG than sales in NA (esp. as they have more higher end options/amenities) - which is why they offered something like the Genesis Prada.




Do you always like pontificating on stuff you have little clue about?

SK is one of the largest and most profitable markets for luxury auto-makers.

Despite a pop. one-third the size of Japan's, SK is actually a more important market for the German lux makes.

The 1st performance driving center BMW built in Asia was in SK and not in Japan or China.

Mercedes sold 100k E Classes within the past 3 yrs in Korea.

The Korean market the 3rd largest market for combined E and S Class sales after China and the US (and at times has surpassed the US).

BMW sold more 5 Series in Korea during the 1st Q than in the US.

From Jan. to May, sales of imported mode;s over $82.500 comprised of 15,667 vehicles (yeah, SK has a real wealth gap problem).




The Lexus RWD sedans weren't performing that well sales-wise when there was a favorable exchange rate.

And no, when it comes to luxury vehicles, the China market still prefers large sedans (which is why they get special LWB variants).

And the Japanese market is not devoid of larger lux sedan sales either - as can be seen in healthy sales by MB and BMW (albeit not to the heights in SK) and in the Toyota Crown series.

I do not need you to recite how many are sold and who are the 1st/2nd/3rd largest entity etc., this is becoming more like just shouting slogans. Like I said before, if you set any car's MSRP to be only $1 in a country, that country will immediately become the largest auto market in the planet.

Just tell me, for the DH G80, roughly how much is its per unit development cost + material cost + manufacturing labor cost? how much is its average transaction price for the past 5 years? - in SK local currency. I know G80 shares some parts with other models, for the development cost and tooling part, calculate the cost using the prorated principle.

On the other hand I am just stating some facts, like with only 1/2 of GDP per capita of US, consumers in SK managed to buy more luxury cars (per capita-wise). So without doubt this indicates there must be some significant differences in spending preference/habit between these two countries, on average. Looks like you have problem with this statement?

For the Lexus GS, there is a strong correlation between its US annual sales and the USD/JPY FX rate. Between 2005-2007, USD/JPY reached the height of ~117-121 (JPY depreciates), and the UDS/JPY rate kept dropping from 2007 to 2011 to the level of ~80 (JPY appreciates). Look at GS annual sales between 2005 and 2011 and you see exactly the same trend.

Look at GS US sales between 2008 and 2010, its sales dropped more than 70%; compared to the 5 Series and E-class, which only dropped 12% - 27% - the only explanation must be the FX rate, because between these years there is no generation change for all these car models, and they all suffer from the 2008 financial crisis. The only difference is USD/JPY dropped significantly and there was no severe change in the USD/EUR rate during that period.

There was also a short USD/JPY boost between 2012-2015 so you see the same pattern for GS sales in US during those years.

 

[YEH]

^ Sorry, but what you stated before and again, is still ridiculous (yes, let's take some extreme, asinine example).

You really think Genesis prices their vehicles in Korea so that they don't make a healthy profit (then why would they even be in the business)?

The 2.5T G80 starts at 52,470,000 won ($43,383).

The 3.5TT G80 starts at 59,070,000 won ($48,952), and can load it up to around 80k won ($66.2k).

The 2.5T GV80 starts at 60,370,000 won ($49,622).

The 3.5TT GV80 starts at 60,370,000 won ($54,476).

The LWB G90 can go for over $130k US.

Just tell me, for the DH G80, roughly how much is its per unit development cost + material cost + manufacturing labor cost? how much is its average transaction price for the past 5 years? - in SK local currency. I know G80 shares some parts with other models, for the development cost and tooling part, calculate the cost using the prorated principle.

Enough to warrant to keep investing in the model/segment, unlike the Japanese who have all abandoned it.

On the other hand I am just stating some facts, like with only 1/2 of GDP per capita of US, consumers in SK managed to buy more luxury cars (per capita-wise). So without doubt this indicates there must be some significant differences in spending preference/habit between these two countries, on average. Looks like you have problem with this statement?

And?

You certain like to conflate your arguments.

Again, no one is arguing that the 2 markets have certain differences, but you argued that Genesis had to price their vehicles in Korea where they wouldn't be making a healthy profit, which is entirely false.

Genesis sells at a very healthy volume in Korea w/ healthy margins.

Hence, affording them to keep investing in the brand.

Look at GS US sales between 2008 and 2010, its sales dropped more than 70%; compared to the 5 Series and E-class, which only dropped 12% - 27% - the only explanation must be the FX rate, because between these years there is no generation change for all these car models, and they all suffer from the 2008 financial crisis. The only difference is USD/JPY dropped significantly and there was no severe change in the USD/EUR rate during that period.

Not surprisingly, you missed the more evident reasons for the decline in GS sales for those years.

1. Launch of the Genesis sedan
2. Aging GS model

If the FX rate was that big of a factor, then should have seen the same thing for Infiniti G sales; sales declined some in 2008 (64k) and even further in 2009 (47k), but rebounded in 2010 (58k).

There was also a short USD/JPY boost between 2012-2015 so you see the same pattern for GS sales in US during those years.

Yeah, and that is attributable to the launch of the 4G GS, which never attained the same sales height as its predecessor when new (22k in sales vs. 33.5k).

The new M/Q70 didn't either.

 

[MyCorvette]

^ Sorry, but what you stated before and again, is still ridiculous (yes, let's take some extreme, asinine example).

You really think Genesis prices their vehicles in Korea so that they don't make a healthy profit (then why would they even be in the business)?

The 2.5T G80 starts at 52,470,000 won ($43,383).

The 3.5TT G80 starts at 59,070,000 won ($48,952), and can load it up to around 80k won ($66.2k).

The 2.5T GV80 starts at 60,370,000 won ($49,622).

The 3.5TT GV80 starts at 60,370,000 won ($54,476).

The LWB G90 can go for over $130k US.




Enough to warrant to keep investing in the model/segment, unlike the Japanese who have all abandoned it.




And?

You certain like to conflate your arguments.

Again, no one is arguing that the 2 markets have certain differences, but you argued that Genesis had to price their vehicles in Korea where they wouldn't be making a healthy profit, which is entirely false.

Genesis sells at a very healthy volume in Korea w/ healthy margins.

Hence, affording them to keep investing in the brand.




Not surprisingly, you missed the more evident reasons for the decline in GS sales for those years.

1. Launch of the Genesis sedan
2. Aging GS model

If the FX rate was that big of a factor, then should have seen the same thing for Infiniti G sales; sales declined some in 2008 (64k) and even further in 2009 (47k), but rebounded in 2010 (58k).




Yeah, and that is attributable to the launch of the 4G GS, which never attained the same sales height as its predecessor when new (22k in sales vs. 33.5k).

The new M/Q70 didn't either.

Where did I confirm that "Genesis prices their vehicles in Korea so that they don't make a healthy profit"? It may be, or may not be. Profit can come from selling product to consumers, and it can also come from other sources such as the government through various forms.

With asking price similar to the US market, but with only 1/2 GDP per capita to support a higher per capita sales for luxury goods, you do need to give sound reasons to connect the dots. Give me actual cost/profit numbers, no MSRP, no slogan, no rhetorical question please.

Your Infiniti example is incomparable - Infiniti offers more incentive than Lexus in US market and the scale of incentive usually fluctuate significantly, this will affect its sales figure. Instead, like BMW and Mercedes, Lexus incentive programs are quite consistent throughout years, so Lexus can be comparable to BMW and Mercedes. Had Lexus changed its incentive program style, the fate of GS may have been avoided despite the unfavorable FX rate.

If you claim "launch of the Genesis sedan" led to the decline of GS sales, then you need to give us hard proof. For example, for which year, out of how many Genesis/G80 buyers, they initially wanted to purchase GS, but instead picked G80. You will also need to provide the source of how you obtain this data and why this data is authentic (for example signed and verifiable consumer affidavit in writing).

Looks like you are working for or have some sort of emotional connection with Hyundai/Genesis/Kia? Lots of your posts are simply optimistic guessing or wishful thinking without solid proof. If this is the similar mindset inside the corporate, no wonder why the Genesis US launch and the corresponding customer service/experience are such a mess...

 

[dhb220]

If you claim "launch of the Genesis sedan" led to the decline of GS sales, then you need to give us hard proof. For example, for which year, out of how many Genesis/G80 buyers, they initially wanted to purchase GS, but instead picked G80. You will also need to provide the source of how you obtain this data and why this data is authentic (for example signed and verifiable consumer affidavit in writing).

I promise I'm not injecting myself into this discussion between you both. However, YEH made the point about the Genesis sedan impacting sales numbers of the GS and it struck a chord. I went to Lexus of Cool Springs in TN with the intent to buy a GS, but struggled with the aging styling, tech, and perceived value. My friend owned a 1G Genesis and when I saw the updated model with the crazy price discount, I was instantly sold (I would have paid far more for the car after test driving it).

I have a big Toyota / Lexus background (years on Club Lexus) - and was leaning that direction when I needed a new car as the IS was way too small. Ultimately, the value and styling won me over regarding the 2015 Hyundai Genesis. The GS interior wasn't bad at the time, but the exterior was a struggle with the spindle grill. The limited performance, awful infotainment system, and price point we're big factors as well.

In summary, I was the example of YEH. This is only my individual experience. I know 2 others who chose Genesis over a Lexus GS, but that's it. I'm sad to see it go as I drove the 2001 GS for many years - great car in it's day.

Lastly, I love the SK sales numbers each month. I love to track the domestic market for Genesis and happy to see their success. Thanks for the posts and keep on with the discussion!

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[MyCorvette]

In fact it surprises me that the idea of "launch of the Genesis sedan leads to Lexus GS sales decline" was brought up, because this is a pseudo-proposition.

The only case one can claim "A caused B to decline" is, there are only two competitors (A and B) in the segment. However for midsize luxury sedan, we have BMW 5, Mercedes E class, Audi A6, Lexus GS, Infiniti Q70, Jaguar XF, Acura RLX, Genesis G80 etc. to compete each other. Even the Lexus ES is somewhat (partially) overlapped with these audience.

Like the example in the above post, the consumer did not mention the European brands, this means those 5, E class, A6 etc. even failed to make into the consumer's final list.

I can also interpret another fact like this: the Lexus ES size and price range is overlapped with the Genesis G80, obviously Lexus ES is sold way more than the G80 in US, so this means Toyota's FWD platform is so good that it can even beat competitor's RWD platform (here "beat" means earning more business from consumers).

 

[dhb220]

In fact it surprises me that the idea of "launch of the Genesis sedan leads to Lexus GS sales decline" was brought up, because this is a pseudo-proposition.

The only case one can claim "A caused B to decline" is, there are only two competitors (A and B) in the segment. However for midsize luxury sedan, we have BMW 5, Mercedes E class, Audi A6, Lexus GS, Infiniti Q70, Jaguar XF, Acura RLX, Genesis G80 etc. to compete each other. Even the Lexus ES is somewhat (partially) overlapped with these audience.

Like the example in the above post, the consumer did not mention the European brands, this means those 5, E class, A6 etc. even failed to make into the consumer's final list.

I can also interpret another fact like this: the Lexus ES size and price range is overlapped with the Genesis G80, obviously Lexus ES is sold way more than the G80 in US, so this means Toyota's FWD platform is so good that it can even beat competitor's RWD platform (here "beat" means earning more business from consumers).

Correct regarding the overall market segment. Remember, I grew up a Toyota/Lexus fan and Hyundai reminded me of those roots.

Infiniti and Acura were simply not on my list of consideration in this segment. Sadly, both brands were not delivering (IMO) compelling options that made me lean towards buying a Q50/Q70 or RLX. The German options are competitive and appealing, but were less favorable due to my obvious bias for Asian car value - less performance, but better value on price and assumptive longevity/reliability (with Audi improving over the last several years in the reliability department). The jump for Hyundai was my second try for a Korean automaker as my wife's previous Kia held up fairly well.

This is simply my perspective - the Genesis 2G Sedan reminded me of the Lexus LS400 regarding how it has been perceived by the general public and auto enthusiast. Hyundai's "organic" transition is intentionally similar to the Lexus evolution from Toyota in the 90s. The similarity is why many conversations are centered around the Lexus GS and Genesis G80 conversation. This naturally excludes the Germans and other European brands as they emerged decades before as luxury brands. It also serves as a surprising twist as Genesis created a luxury vehicle that exceeded the offerings from Infiniti and Acura out of Japan within a short period of time.

The Lexus ES has maintained strong popularity for quite some time. You are correct - the ES has cannibalized GS sales for many years. The ES buyers that I know (my own mother included) wanted FWD, better fuel efficiency, cheaper entry point to luxury, and a proven reputation for reliability. This, along with the proven Lexus target market of buyers, is why the ES sells well. It competed better with a Buick LaCrosse and other FWD entry-level luxury offerings vs. the other aforementioned RWD options. It's "the Camry of its segment" - which up to recently was quite literal regarding the platform and parts bin. That comment shouldn't be considered negative considering how well the car has sold during this current SUV craze. I don't see the G80 outselling the Lexus ES, but I struggle to view the ES as "beating" any RWD option in the automotive world.

 

[MyCorvette]

The pre-2021 G80, including the Hyundai Genesis sedan in US market, it is priced in the territory of BMW 3/Mercedes C class/Audi A4/Lexus IS (with similar option). Taking actual incentive/discount into consideration, G80 sometimes is even cheaper than those German/Japan luxury compact sedans. I also checked KDM price, it is the same situation.

So strictly speaking G80 is not competing directly with German/Japan midsize sedans, it actually is targeting more at consumers whose affordability is at the 3 series/C class/A4/IS level. While I believe there definitely are some 5 series/E class/A6/GS consumers who will cross shop other vehicles which price is one class lower and save some money, there are still quite a lot of consumers do not cross shop.

 

[YEH]

Where did I confirm that "Genesis prices their vehicles in Korea so that they don't make a healthy profit"? It may be, or may not be. Profit can come from selling product to consumers, and it can also come from other sources such as the government through various forms.

Lol!

You certainly were more than insinuating that when you brought up SK's per capita GDP and then stating that Koreans either were spending a higher % of their income on autos (which is nuts since Seoul has some of the highest RE prices in the world or Genesis was selling at a lower price (or greater discount) in its domestic market.

Don't try to backtrack on what you wrote.

The fact that Genesis is offering the Stardust SE at nearly $110k - which isn't the LWB and doesn't have some of the features available in the new G80 says it all about the type of margins Genesis can make there.

With asking price similar to the US market, but with only 1/2 GDP per capita to support a higher per capita sales for luxury goods, you do need to give sound reasons to connect the dots. Give me actual cost/profit numbers, no MSRP, no slogan, no rhetorical question please.

Didn't I already explain this?

SK has even greater wealth disparity than the US, plus outside of Seoul and the other major metro areas, the cost of living is lower.

SK is not only one of the major markets for lux autos, but also for lux goods/apparel (Hermes, Lanvin, Gucci, Dior, Burberry, etc.).

More niche automakers like Porsche and Ferrari are having banner sales years despite the pandemic.

Geeze, SK fluctuates between the 11th and 12th largest GDP in the world (depends on the exchange rate and the price of oil which helps Russia).

There's plenty of $ in SK (just concentrated).

Your Infiniti example is incomparable - Infiniti offers more incentive than Lexus in US market and the scale of incentive usually fluctuate significantly, this will affect its sales figure. Instead, like BMW and Mercedes, Lexus incentive programs are quite consistent throughout years, so Lexus can be comparable to BMW and Mercedes. Had Lexus changed its incentive program style, the fate of GS may have been avoided despite the unfavorable FX rate

Now you are just talking nonsense if you think Infiniti is somehow immune to the effects of the FX rate.

And doesn't matter if we're talking Lexus, Infiniti or Acura.

From 2016 thru 2018 - Genesis actually spent LESS on incentives (as a % of ATP) than all 3 of the Japanese, and including YTD, the same as Lexus and LESS than Acura and Infiniti.

2016 thru YTD

Genesis - 10.1%
Lexus - 10.1%
Acura - 11.7%
Infiniti - 14.6%

For the 1st half of the year, Genesis' % incentive spending is only a little higher than that for Lexus and lower than Acura and Infiniti - which is darn good considering that the other 3 have CUVs/SUVs and Genesis won't for another few months.

You also Contradict yourself by 1st arguing that the FX rate affects the amount of incentive spending and then go on to claim that the Lexus incentive program is consistent (can't have it both ways).

The thing that more affects incentive spending is the age of models, which is more pronounced for a smaller lineup like what Genesis currently has.

So Genesis, even without any CUVs, has an ATP on par with Lexus and Infiniti and about $10k higher than Acura, but an incentive % on par with Lexus and lower than Acura and Infiniti.

If you claim "launch of the Genesis sedan" led to the decline of GS sales, then you need to give us hard proof. For example, for which year, out of how many Genesis/G80 buyers, they initially wanted to purchase GS, but instead picked G80. You will also need to provide the source of how you obtain this data and why this data is authentic (for example signed and verifiable consumer affidavit in writing).

LMAO.

You know that such "proof" isn't available and almost impossible to compile (unless someone is willing to spend the time and $ to interview buyers).

But at the same time one can make an educated extrapolation based on the data at hand - sales figures.

Even taking into account the Great Recession, sales of the GS (and M) declined more than usual upon the launch of the Genesis sedan, and when new generations of the GS and M (now called the Q70) subsequently launched, neither came close to approaching the sales heights previous generations were able to hit (something that wasn't an issue for the new E Class).

Furthermore, according to Genesis (back in 2017), the lux brand most traded in is Lexus (30%) followed by BMW (15%) - with buyers largely WM, college educated and having a median income of $145k.

So, wouldn't you say that the available data/facts seem to fit?

Looks like you are working for or have some sort of emotional connection with Hyundai/Genesis/Kia? Lots of your posts are simply optimistic guessing or wishful thinking without solid proof. If this is the similar mindset inside the corporate, no wonder why the Genesis US launch and the corresponding customer service/experience are such a mess...

So now you have resorted to the go-to ad hominem attack of somehow working for or having a connection to Genesis.

That would be pretty hilarious considering that I've been one of the most vocal critics of Genesis designs and even more so interior/dash designs and materials (received quite the blowback from some when stated that metallic painted plastic just won't do, esp. on touch points like door releases and paddle shifters).

Furthermore, have also been the one most vocal about sales of the G70 being a major disappointment - which had projected would likely happen due to the tight interior space (also had predicted that for the ATS).

But unlike YOU, I've actually backed up the things I've sated with actual data.

You, otoh, have proferred up nothing but things you've supposedly heard from a friend.

You've even gone as far as to pontificate as to what type of vehicles the Korean market is able to afford and you were so off the mark, you missed the target entirely.

 

[MyCorvette]

Lol!

You certainly were more than insinuating that when you brought up SK's per capita GDP and then stating that Koreans either were spending a higher % of their income on autos (which is nuts since Seoul has some of the highest RE prices in the world or Genesis was selling at a lower price (or greater discount) in its domestic market.

Don't try to backtrack on what you wrote.

The fact that Genesis is offering the Stardust SE at nearly $110k - which isn't the LWB and doesn't have some of the features available in the new G80 says it all about the type of margins Genesis can make there.




Didn't I already explain this?

SK has even greater wealth disparity than the US, plus outside of Seoul and the other major metro areas, the cost of living is lower.

SK is not only one of the major markets for lux autos, but also for lux goods/apparel (Hermes, Lanvin, Gucci, Dior, Burberry, etc.).

More niche automakers like Porsche and Ferrari are having banner sales years despite the pandemic.

Geeze, SK fluctuates between the 11th and 12th largest GDP in the world (depends on the exchange rate and the price of oil which helps Russia).

There's plenty of $ in SK (just concentrated).



Now you are just talking nonsense if you think Infiniti is somehow immune to the effects of the FX rate.

And doesn't matter if we're talking Lexus, Infiniti or Acura.

From 2016 thru 2018 - Genesis actually spent LESS on incentives (as a % of ATP) than all 3 of the Japanese, and including YTD, the same as Lexus and LESS than Acura and Infiniti.

2016 thru YTD

Genesis - 10.1%
Lexus - 10.1%
Acura - 11.7%
Infiniti - 14.6%

For the 1st half of the year, Genesis' % incentive spending is only a little higher than that for Lexus and lower than Acura and Infiniti - which is darn good considering that the other 3 have CUVs/SUVs and Genesis won't for another few months.

You also Contradict yourself by 1st arguing that the FX rate affects the amount of incentive spending and then go on to claim that the Lexus incentive program is consistent (can't have it both ways).

The thing that more affects incentive spending is the age of models, which is more pronounced for a smaller lineup like what Genesis currently has.

So Genesis, even without any CUVs, has an ATP on par with Lexus and Infiniti and about $10k higher than Acura, but an incentive % on par with Lexus and lower than Acura and Infiniti.



LMAO.

You know that such "proof" isn't available and almost impossible to compile (unless someone is willing to spend the time and $ to interview buyers).

But at the same time one can make an educated extrapolation based on the data at hand - sales figures.

Even taking into account the Great Recession, sales of the GS (and M) declined more than usual upon the launch of the Genesis sedan, and when new generations of the GS and M (now called the Q70) subsequently launched, neither came close to approaching the sales heights previous generations were able to hit (something that wasn't an issue for the new E Class).

Furthermore, according to Genesis (back in 2017), the lux brand most traded in is Lexus (30%) followed by BMW (15%) - with buyers largely WM, college educated and having a median income of $145k.

So, wouldn't you say that the available data/facts seem to fit?




So now you have resorted to the go-to ad hominem attack of somehow working for or having a connection to Genesis.

That would be pretty hilarious considering that I've been one of the most vocal critics of Genesis designs and even more so interior/dash designs and materials (received quite the blowback from some when stated that metallic painted plastic just won't do, esp. on touch points like door releases and paddle shifters).

Furthermore, have also been the one most vocal about sales of the G70 being a major disappointment - which had projected would likely happen due to the tight interior space (also had predicted that for the ATS).

But unlike YOU, I've actually backed up the things I've sated with actual data.

You, otoh, have proferred up nothing but things you've supposedly heard from a friend.

You've even gone as far as to pontificate as to what type of vehicles the Korean market is able to afford and you were so off the mark, you missed the target entirely.

I think you wrote too much and in the end you are totally lost. Just one fact will make all of your points meaningless.

United States in fact has greater wealth disparity than South Korea, look at the numbers from World Bank:

The Country With The World's Worst Inequality Is ...

US score is 41 while SK is only 32. With that being said, it is OK to spend more percent of your income to buy a car. As long as you earn your money legally, this is totally up to you, no one will laugh at you or judge you.

Second, your citing of percentage of incentive indicates you are unfamiliar with this area. Different companies, in different countries have different accounting rules. Different accounting rules may lead to different results. In fact, one can classify some of the expenses most people consider is "incentive", to be non-incentive items in the accounting report.

Last, many things happened right before the Lexus GS sales volume dropped, obviously it is absurd to assume any one of these led to Lexus GS sales decline. I understand since you work for Hyundai/Genesis, you have the tendency and bias to attribute anything to be your employer's credit. However that is not objective. For example, I am pretty sure before Lexus GS sales drop, you did go to restroom a couple times, right? So can you claim the demise of Lexus GS is due to you have gone to the restroom?

 

[YEH]

I think you wrote too much and in the end you are totally lost. Just one fact will make all of your points meaningless.

United States in fact has greater wealth disparity than South Korea, look at the numbers from World Bank:

The Country With The World's Worst Inequality Is ...

US score is 41 while SK is only 32. With that being said, it is OK to spend more percent of your income to buy a car. As long as you earn your money legally, this is totally up to you, no one will laugh at you or judge you.

Actually, there are countries (like South Africa) which are worse based on the gini coefficient.

The gini coefficient for SK (0.36) and the US (0.39), so based on that, SK seemingly is doing a little better with regard to wealth inequality, but such data sets only give a superficial overlay.

The US figure is somewhat warped by the immense fortunes of the founders of tech giants like apple, Google, Amazon, FB, etc. (sure, the families of the chaebols also have immense wealth, but nothing close to the scale of Bezos, or even his ex-wife - only one close is the Lee family which controls Samsung).

And despite a per capita GDP a good bit lower than the US and the most prosperous European countries, it is a TOP 4 market for higher end lux vehicles (like the E and S Classes) despite the overall auto market being 11th in size.

When it comes to higher end lux vehicles, SK is the largest importer in Asia.

In the US, one doesn't have to graduate from elite universities like the Ivies, Stanford, MIT, Northwestern, Duke or even the flagship state universities like Penn State, U of Texas, UVA, Cal, etc. to get a good job.

In SK, the # of good paying jobs are good bit more limited, which is why there is so much competition to get into the top schools (as well as why so many Korean students opt to get their higher education overseas).

In the US, govt. jobs are somewhat looked down upon as they pay a good bit less than the private sector.

In Korea, they are highly prized as they are among the better paying jobs, if not working for one of the chaebols.

And the wealth gap is growing - sales of imported vehicles priced over $82,500 jumped 70% for the 1st 5 months of the year to 15,667 vehicles.

Meanwhile, sales of small cars slumped 10%.

The wealth gap in Korea is why so many films and TV shows like "Parasite" try to address that issue.

SK has been the #1 market for the 5 Series outside of China for not only this year, but for periods of time in other years.

Second, your citing of percentage of incentive indicates you are unfamiliar with this area. Different companies, in different countries have different accounting rules. Different accounting rules may lead to different results. In fact, one can classify some of the expenses most people consider is "incentive", to be non-incentive items in the accounting report.

Pretty sure I'm more familiar with this kind of stuff than you.

And accounting rules for different countries has NOTHING to do with the calculations of incentive spending for the US market - which takes into account things like cash rebates, subsidized finance rates, etc.

Last, many things happened right before the Lexus GS sales volume dropped, obviously it is absurd to assume any one of these led to Lexus GS sales decline. I understand since you work for Hyundai/Genesis, you have the tendency and bias to attribute anything to be your employer's credit. However that is not objective. For example, I am pretty sure before Lexus GS sales drop, you did go to restroom a couple times, right? So can you claim the demise of Lexus GS is due to you have gone to the restroom?

There you go with your erroneous ad hominem attack again.

So sales of the GS dropping more than usual at around the same time the Genesis sedan was launched is purely a "coincidence", even despite Lexus being the brand from which Genesis has the greatest # of conquests (30%).

LOL

You have offered nothing more than ad hominem attacks and attacking the data that I have given, whilst not offering any of your own.

 

[MyCorvette]

Actually, there are countries (like South Africa) which are worse based on the gini coefficient.

The gini coefficient for SK (0.36) and the US (0.39), so based on that, SK seemingly is doing a little better with regard to wealth inequality, but such data sets only give a superficial overlay.

The US figure is somewhat warped by the immense fortunes of the founders of tech giants like apple, Google, Amazon, FB, etc. (sure, the families of the chaebols also have immense wealth, but nothing close to the scale of Bezos, or even his ex-wife - only one close is the Lee family which controls Samsung).

And despite a per capita GDP a good bit lower than the US and the most prosperous European countries, it is a TOP 4 market for higher end lux vehicles (like the E and S Classes) despite the overall auto market being 11th in size.

When it comes to higher end lux vehicles, SK is the largest importer in Asia.

In the US, one doesn't have to graduate from elite universities like the Ivies, Stanford, MIT, Northwestern, Duke or even the flagship state universities like Penn State, U of Texas, UVA, Cal, etc. to get a good job.

In SK, the # of good paying jobs are good bit more limited, which is why there is so much competition to get into the top schools (as well as why so many Korean students opt to get their higher education overseas).

In the US, govt. jobs are somewhat looked down upon as they pay a good bit less than the private sector.

In Korea, they are highly prized as they are among the better paying jobs, if not working for one of the chaebols.

And the wealth gap is growing - sales of imported vehicles priced over $82,500 jumped 70% for the 1st 5 months of the year to 15,667 vehicles.

Meanwhile, sales of small cars slumped 10%.

The wealth gap in Korea is why so many films and TV shows like "Parasite" try to address that issue.

SK has been the #1 market for the 5 Series outside of China for not only this year, but for periods of time in other years.




Pretty sure I'm more familiar with this kind of stuff than you.

And accounting rules for different countries has NOTHING to do with the calculations of incentive spending for the US market - which takes into account things like cash rebates, subsidized finance rates, etc.




There you go with your erroneous ad hominem attack again.

So sales of the GS dropping more than usual at around the same time the Genesis sedan was launched is purely a "coincidence", even despite Lexus being the brand from which Genesis has the greatest # of conquests (30%).

LOL

You have offered nothing more than ad hominem attacks and attacking the data that I have given, whilst not offering any of your own.

I do not have time to read all of your long murmuring response, let's just focus on this point:

The World Bank clearly told us, United States has greater wealth disparity than South Korea. Why did you lie about this (before I posting the evidence from WB), and now trying to talk a lot to "get around" of it? All the problems you described that exist in SK, US also has them and with greater extent.

 

[YEH]

^ Which means you have NOTHING in response.

Basic stats like what the WB offers doesn't give anywhere the accurate picture.

The best selling MB model in SK last month was the E Class with 4,020 sold.

The best selling MB in Japan was the A Class - 1,841.

Only 664 of the E Class was sold in Japan.

Taking into account the pop. size difference, that's a HUGE disparity in E Class sales.

On top of that , Genesis sold 7,905 G80s.

In comparison, Lexus didn't even break the 500 barrier in GS sales in Japan.

There's a reason why Toyota has been slow to invest in its higher end RWD sedans, whereas Hyundai is going full force.

In the past 2 months in Korea, Genesis sold nearly as many G80s as Lexus did for the GS for the past THREE YEARS here in the US, and what Acura sold of the RLX for its ENTIRE run here.

In addition to outselling Acura and Infiniti for the month.

So your whole attempt to downplay the viability/profitability of the Genesis brand was foolhardy to begin with, and rife with ignorance and superficiality.

 

[MyCorvette]

^ Which means you have NOTHING in response.

Basic stats like what the WB offers doesn't give anywhere the accurate picture.

The best selling MB model in SK last month was the E Class with 4,020 sold.

The best selling MB in Japan was the A Class - 1,841.

Only 664 of the E Class was sold in Japan.

Taking into account the pop. size difference, that's a HUGE disparity in E Class sales.

On top of that , Genesis sold 7,905 G80s.

In comparison, Lexus didn't even break the 500 barrier in GS sales in Japan.

There's a reason why Toyota has been slow to invest in its higher end RWD sedans, whereas Hyundai is going full force.

In the past 2 months in Korea, Genesis sold nearly as many G80s as Lexus did for the GS for the past THREE YEARS here in the US, and what Acura sold of the RLX for its ENTIRE run here.

In addition to outselling Acura and Infiniti for the month.

So your whole attempt to downplay the viability/profitability of the Genesis brand was foolhardy to begin with, and rife with ignorance and superficiality.

Let's not jump to other topics, I still need your explanation on this question:

The World Bank clearly told us, United States has greater wealth disparity than South Korea. Why did you lie about this in the earlier posts (before I posting the evidence from WB), and now even trying to talk a lot of other things to get around of it?

 

[YEH]

^ Despite an overall DROP in sales, operating profit INCREASED 21.1% ($717.3 million) during the 1st Q of 2019 - based on Korean sales of 2 higher margin models, the FL G90 and the new Palisade.

For the 2Q in 2019, Hyundai's operating profit increased 30.2% on the same basis.

Likely would have seen similar results for the 2Q of 2020, but for the effects of the pandemic on worldwide auto sales.

But sales of the new G80 and the GV80, along with continued sales of the FL G90 and Palisade (now, also for NA) and the FL Grandeur in Korea have mitigated the financial damage.