Genesis plans 3rd utility to balance lineup

[YEH]

http://www.autonews.com/article/20170807/OEM03/170809791

August 7, 2017 @ 12:01 am
Hans Greimel

HWASEONG, South Korea — Genesis has promised two SUVs as part of its six-nameplate rollout by around 2020, and is now planning a third utility entry — possibly a compact crossover to tap surging demand in that growing segment.

The only hitch: Dealers and customers will have to wait until 2021.

Global brand boss Manfred Fitzgerald conceded most customers still don't know the brand.

"We still have a lack of awareness," Fitzgerald said. But additional entries, he promised, will help put Genesis on people's radar as a legitimate luxury contender.

"There are still many other white spots on the map," he said. "To get substance into your brand, you have to demonstrate the breadth of the brand."

The mystery vehicle, denoted only as "CUV," was included in a product pipeline shown reporters during a recent visit to the Hyundai Motor Group's global r&d center here.

Genesis bosses declined to offer details about the entry. But it is distinct from two previously announced SUVs. Those products are the large-sized GV80 SUV, previewed by a concept unveiled at April's New York auto show, and the midsized GV70.

The GV80 and GV70 were listed as arriving by around 2020, along with the G70 sport sedan, a face-lift of the flagship G90 sedan and a next-generation G80 sedan.

Of those, the G70 comes first, arriving later this year.

From 2021, the crossover arrives, along with a "sport" entry and a G90 full model change. A dedicated electric vehicle platform will also debut around then for a Genesis EV offering.

When Hyundai announced the initial 6 model Genesis lineup (3 sedans, 2 CUVs and 1 coupe) - stated that Hyundai really needed to add a 3rd CUV - which they have now done.

Most likely, it will be a smaller CUV than the GV70 - so will be interesting if the platform underpinning the G70 and GV70 can be shortened or if Hyundai will have to develop a new platform or use an existing FWD platform like the competition.

Another possibility is that this smaller CUV will be an EV.

So now, instead of a 6 vehicle line-up, Hyundai now at least 8 (if not 9) models planned.

3 sedans, 3 CUVs, 2 coupes and 1 or more EVs (which could end up being the small CUV).

 

[PMCErnie]

All well and good, but as of today they are losing sales right and left due to having zero non-sedan vehicles. As far back as '13 they could have been marketing a Santa Fe Sport AWD derivative model.

 

[YEH]

Disagree - a tarted up Santa Fe would have diluted what Hyundai wants to do with the Genesis brand.

And besides, Hyundai has had its own issues with crossovers.

 

[PMCErnie]

Disagree - a tarted up Santa Fe would have diluted what Hyundai wants to do with the Genesis brand.

And besides, Hyundai has had its own issues with crossovers.

You are entitled to disagree, but it seems to have worked for other brands. There are also different levels of tarting up a vehicle. The Lincoln MKC (Ford Escape) and MKX (Ford Edge) aren't doing that badly. As a matter of fact, they are beating Genesis very badly since Genesis has no SUV/Crossover offerings whatsoever.

The Santa Fe Sport already has AWD available, plus a turbo engine (since 2013!). That's a big start. It merely needed to add a better suspension and handing, plus a different body and interior, to become a Genesis. That should have happened by the '16 model year. The bottom line is that almost everybody wants an SUV, or a Crossover, these days.

 

[Mark_888]

Disagree - a tarted up Santa Fe would have diluted what Hyundai wants to do with the Genesis brand.

And besides, Hyundai has had its own issues with crossovers.

What issues? The 2015 Santa Fe models (Sport and the larger regular Santa Fe) were well received, and they have been upgraded it since then:

"Both the Santa Fe Sport and the Santa Fe are well regarded by Cars.com editors for their family-hauling proficiency. The Santa Fe Sport won our Small Family Car of the Year award for 2015, while the Santa Fe won the award for both the Large Family Car of the Year and the overarching honor of Family Car of the Year."​

The very well regarded (and highly popular) Acura MDX is an upscale Honda Pilot (although I think the MDX came first, as the old Honda Pilot was a different vehicle).

 

[YEH]

You are entitled to disagree, but it seems to have worked for other brands. There are also different levels of tarting up a vehicle. The Lincoln MKC (Ford Escape) and MKX (Ford Edge) aren't doing that badly. As a matter of fact, they are beating Genesis very badly since Genesis has no SUV/Crossover offerings whatsoever.

The Santa Fe Sport already has AWD available, plus a turbo engine (since 2013!). That's a big start. It merely needed to add a better suspension and handing, plus a different body and interior, to become a Genesis. That should have happened by the '16 model year. The bottom line is that almost everybody wants an SUV, or a Crossover, these days.

Sure, other brands have had varying level of success w/ tarted up FWD-based CUVs, but you really think that's the path Hyundai should have followed for Genesis (it's not the path that Hyundai wants for the Genesis brand)?

The main reason why those FWD-based CUVs have done well is based on price.

The Lexus RX and XT5 (both midsize) are priced more against the BMW X3 than the X5.

The RX starts at $43.2k and the XT5 is starts at $39.4k whereas the X5 starts at $56.6k.

If Hyundai tarted up the Santa Fe Sport to the Genesis competitor, it would have to undercut not only the RX, but the XT5 as well.

And then we're talking being $3-5k less than the starting price of the X3 - and that doesn't do much for the Genesis brand being a bona fide luxury brand.

Also, while the SFS/SF got pretty decent reviews when it launched, they did not exactly have what one would consider a luxury-grade ride (btw, a common criticism of the NX).

With RWD-based CUVs, the Genesis offerings should be closer to pricing parity w/ the likes of the RX, and the Genesis brand would be able to offer more performance in both RWD and AWD form (the RX F-Sport is a joke).

Now, there is a risk of going w/ RWD-based CUVs as those not BMW or MB have all opted for cheaper (more value-based) FWD CUVs, but think there is a market for those wanting a less expensive alternative to BMW and MB (the risk is mitigated somewhat by the Genesis CUVs offering more interior room than the norm, as it does w/ its sedans).

As an aside, Hyundai did a (slightly larger) tarted-up Grandeur/Azera for the Korean market (basically, Hyundai's ES) targeted at the upper-middle class house-wives.

It flopped.

What issues? The 2015 Santa Fe models (Sport and the larger regular Santa Fe) were well received, and they have been upgraded it since then.

Right now, both are showing their age and the 3-row SF can't compete with the likes of the Pilot, Explorer, etc. when it comes to passenger/cargo room - which is why the SF replacement will be getting a good bit larger, along w/ getting a new name.

Hyundai needs greater supply of the Tucson for the US market, but it will also need to see a resizing for the next gen (the Tucson was already on the smaller side, smaller than the old CR-V, but now the new CR-V greatly surpasses it in passenger/cargo space).

The growth in the size of the CR-V (and presumably the next gen RAV-4 and Rogue) are reasons why Hyundai wants to take steps to distinguish the SFS replacement (making it a more rugged, Jeep-like crossover).

Reason why Hyundai sales have been hurting is not only their over-reliance on their sedan/car lineup, but the their cross-over line-up not being properly positioned (along w/ certain capacity issues).

The upcoming Kona should help, but even there, Hyundai will be under-supplying US dealers (due to the lack of capacity to supply all the world markets properly - which is poor planning on their part).

 

[Mark_888]

Right now, both are showing their age and the 3-row SF can't compete with the likes of the Pilot, Explorer, etc. when it comes to passenger/cargo room - which is why the SF replacement will be getting a good bit larger, along w/ getting a new name.

This makes no sense to me. Even assuming that both Hyundai and Genesis need an SUV larger than the Santa Fe, doesn't mean they don't also need one the size of the Santa Fe (regular version). That is the size I would be looking for when I purchase my next vehicle (a mid-size CUV/SUV).

Like I said before, the Honda Pilot and Acura MDX are basically the same vehicle. I believe the MDX upgrades are worth the extra money over the Pilot for those who want a bit more luxury, and I have no problem with a Honda and Acura being similar, one with more luxury features.

Waiting two more years for the Genesis CUV/ SUV lineup is going to be a problem for Genesis Motors IMO.

 

[YEH]

This makes no sense to me. Even assuming that both Hyundai and Genesis need an SUV larger than the Santa Fe, doesn't mean they don't also need one the size of the Santa Fe (regular version). That is the size I would be looking for when I purchase my next vehicle (a mid-size CUV/SUV).

Makes perfect sense as I was merely stating that one of the issues Hyundai has with it CUVs is that the 3-row SF doesn't compete well in terms of passenger/cargo room - hence, Hyundai up-sizing its replacement.

Did not say anything w/ regards to the Sport model in this context.

Like I said before, the Honda Pilot and Acura MDX are basically the same vehicle. I believe the MDX upgrades are worth the extra money over the Pilot for those who want a bit more luxury, and I have no problem with a Honda and Acura being similar, one with more luxury features.

Waiting two more years for the Genesis CUV/ SUV lineup is going to be a problem for Genesis Motors IMO.

And like I stated before, the FWD-based (esp. w/ the tranverse layout) are priced well below the RWD competition, and if the Genesis brand had gone w/ the FWD, would have had to price their crossovers where it would have hurt the whole luxury image that they are seeking.

And going w/ FWD w/ prevents Genesis from going w/ more powerful and/or more performance oriented CUVs.

Furthermore, going w/ FWD has really hurt Acura (Genesis already commands higher prices for its sedans) where it is being seen more as a Buick competitor than one w/ Lexus (much less BMW or MB).

Not having had an entry in the best selling sedan segment (by far), the compact class, has hurt Genesis.

It is what it is - can't make things go faster - Hyundai, like all automakers, has limited resources and can only develop a certain # of models per year, in addition to all the other R&D they engage in for thinks like future powertrains (EVs, fuel cell, etc.), advanced automation, etc.

The MDX starts at $44k.

The X5 starts at $56.6k.

If Hyundai had done a tarted up 3-row SF, would have had to price it around $40k (probably less) - which is right around where the Buick Enclave starts and the Enclave is a good bit bigger (and the new Enclave is almost here and should be getting a price bump).

Being seen more as a Buick/Acura competitor is not where Hyundai wants to see the Genesis brand.

If Toyota isn't careful, they are going to be seen as being more of a Buick/Acura competitor than a BMW/MB competitor as the bulk of their sales is made up of their cheaper FWD models and the % of FWD models driving their sales is only increasing.

 

[PMCErnie]

YEH, I'm starting to believe that you are, in fact, the Hyundai (or Genesis) USA Marketing VP and that you post here to defend your missteps and shortness of vision.

Briefly and simply stated, the Santa Fe Sport is arguably the best product that Hyundai has ever sold in North America. It would have been an easy job, circa 2015/16, to introduce an upmarket 2.0T/AWD Genesis version of the SFS and reap the rewards from the consumer market. At that time, Hyundai would have been ecstatic to pull buyers away from Buick, Lincoln, Lexus and Acura. Then, circa 2019/20 a second generation of that Genesis SUV/CUV could have been ready to roll.

Sellers of any product can't always be fortunate enough to have best selling product in the market, but it's better to be out on the playing field than sitting in the dugout.

 

[YEH]

YEH, I'm starting to believe that you are, in fact, the Hyundai (or Genesis) USA Marketing VP and that you post here to defend your missteps and shortness of vision.

Does that make sense considering that I'm the same poster who has not only continually blasted Hyundai on their short-sightedness when it has come to their crossovers (Hyundai was hardly in position to do CUVs for Genesis when they still haven't sorted out their own CUV lineup), hated the interior of the 1G Genesis, doesn't particularly care for the sheetmetal of the G80 or G90 (and thinks the dash of the G80 is overly bland) and got a lot of flack from some over my pointed criticism of things like the door releases and paddle-shifters being made of painted plastic rather than metal (Bob Lutz noted the same thing on the Stinger; areas of high touch points should always be made out of high quality materials - cost cutting should be done in areas which are low touch points).

Briefly and simply stated, the Santa Fe Sport is arguably the best product that Hyundai has ever sold in North America. It would have been an easy job, circa 2015/16, to introduce an upmarket 2.0T/AWD Genesis version of the SFS and reap the rewards from the consumer market. At that time, Hyundai would have been ecstatic to pull buyers away from Buick, Lincoln, Lexus and Acura. Then, circa 2019/20 a second generation of that Genesis SUV/CUV could have been ready to roll.

Disagree with that premise; esp. considering that the SFS isn't even the 2nd best model in Hyundai's lineup right now.

The Elantra (in particular, the Sport) and the Sonata are better than the SFS.

The SFS's ride and steering feel are inferior, and not only that, the SFS, overall, is inferior to its Kia counterpart, the Sorento.

The Sorento has a better ride, looks better and has a nicer interior with the SX-L trim going to near premium level - all in all, the Sorento is the better, more premium of the 2 and the reviews have reflected that.

Sellers of any product can't always be fortunate enough to have best selling product in the market, but it's better to be out on the playing field than sitting in the dugout.

Not when the product would totally go against what Hyundai wants to do with the Genesis brand.

Going w/ tarted up FWD-based would not only make it harder for the Genesis brand to build its luxury credentials, but would cause confusion for consumers when the next gen models get switched to RWD - and are a good bit different when it comes to the handling/performance equation.

Based on your premise, why did Hyundai even wait to develop a RWD platform to underpin the Genesis and Equus?

Why not just go w/ tarted up Sonatas and Azeras?

Could have started their luxury offering sooner.

But if that had been the case, the Equus would not have been seen as a flagship sedan to be included in comparison tests w/ the likes of the S Class, 7 Series, LS, etc., but instead, would have been relegated to comparisons w/ the RLX, XTS, S90, etc.

And like I had stated before, a tarted up SFS would still have to be priced lower than the Japanese competition (never mind the Germans), much less the domestic brands.

The RX and MDX start at $43 and $44k and the domestics are priced lower.

So we'd be talking about a sub-$40k starting point for a tarted up SF.

That doesn't leave much, if any room.

The Sorento SX-L starts at $44.4k for FWD.

The lower SX trim starts at $39.1k - which is right around where where the Cadillac XT5 and Lincoln MKX start (w/ the MKX being AWD).

Doing it wrong can have long-term consequences for the brand.

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[Mark_888]

Doing it wrong can have long-term consequences for the brand.

Not having a separate dealer network will have bad long-term consequences for the Genesis brand. But no dedicated Genesis dealer can be profitable with only sedans, as Acura, Lexus, and others now have more than 50% of their sales in the CUV/SUV category.

Acura, Lexus, and others already have "tarted up" Honda, Toyota, and other vehicles as their CUV/SUV lineup. The Honda Pilot and Acura MDX are very similar, as are several Toyota and Lexus vehicles.

 

[YEH]

^ Don't understand the point of your post - aside from stating the obvious.

By the time the Genesis brand builds out (most of) its dealer network, should have 2, if not all 3 of its planned CUVs.

Acura, Lexus, and others already have "tarted up" Honda, Toyota, and other vehicles as their CUV/SUV lineup. The Honda Pilot and Acura MDX are very similar, as are several Toyota and Lexus vehicles.

Again, stating the obvious and things that have already been addressed more than once.

Once again, yes - they have tarted up FWD-based models and b/c of that they are priced accordingly (actually competing w/ the RWD models one segment down on price).

The Genesis brand (if they had gone down that path) would still have to undercut them - which leaves no room on pricing as higher trim Sorentos are priced the same (if not higher).

As already stated, with FWD-based CUVs, Genesis would not be able to do more performance-oriented variant.

W/ RWD, could do a Sport trim of the GV80 w/ the 3.3TT (or possibly a smaller TT V8 down the line) - wouldn't be able to do that w/ FWD (the RX F-Sport is a complete joke).

In addition, the timing fits pretty well.

The Genesis brand CUVs from the start will be sold at separate Genesis dealerships (if the accelerated build-out is done as planned) - so prospective buyers should be more inclined to view them as being distinct from Hyundai.

 

[PMCErnie]

YEH, your words go on and on. But you don't seem to know that the Lincoln MKX and the Buick Enclave are FWD/AWD vehicles. A SANTA FE SPORT derivative Genesis should have been feasting on their customers since at least 2015/16.

 

[YEH]

YEH, your words go on and on.

And yet, you haven't refuted a SINGLE thing I had stated.

But you don't seem to know that the Lincoln MKX and the Buick Enclave are FWD/AWD vehicles. A SANTA FE SPORT derivative Genesis should have feasting on their customers since at least 2015/16.

Who doesn't know that?

(FYI, Buick's competitor to a SFS derivative would be more the Envision than the Enclave - which is a full-size, 3 row CUV.)

Once AGAIN, Hyundai wants the Genesis brand to be seen as a less expensive alternative to MB and BMW and not a less expensive alternative to tarted up FWD luxury models (Lexus crossovers), much less Buicks and Lincolns.

Hyundai had a pseudo RX competitor in the Veracruz - it flopped and was discontinued.

For the Korean market, Hyundai developed the Aslan, an upmarket Grandeur/Azera, as a competitor for the ES - it flopped.

You never answered the question - where exactly would you price a FWD-based Genesis competitor to the Lexus RX and Cadillac XT5?

Hyundai didn't hire the former head of BMW's M division to build a tarted up FWD Lexus RX competitor for the soccer-mom set.

 

[PMCErnie]

Simply stated, without boring pedantry, Hyundai missed the boat in getting a CUV/SUV to the marketplace. They "coulda been a contenda," but as YEH says, they scoffed at the soccer mom crowd.

 

[Mark_888]

And yet, you haven't refuted a SINGLE thing I had stated.

Your posts are self-refuting to anyone who reads them. But not as many people read them as you think.

 

[YEH]

^ Please, you're hardly one to talk (coming from someone who argues w/ just about everyone and has pissed off numerous people in this board).

Still going to argue that Hyundai mostly sells smaller cars?

Simply stated, without boring pedantry, Hyundai missed the boat in getting a CUV/SUV to the marketplace. They "coulda been a contenda," but as YEH says, they scoffed at the soccer mom crowd.

Didn't miss the boat.

One can argue that Hyundai missed the boat in launching a luxury brand earlier by just not going w/ tarted up Elantras, Sonatas and Azeras as Acura has done (not exactly working out well for them).

But they didn't do so, b/c that's not what they wanted from their luxury brand.

This is the planned Genesis line-up (as of now).

http://www.autonews.com/article/20170821/OEM04/170829963/steady-ramp-up-for-genesis

GV80: Genesis' first crossover will be this midsize model, due in 2019 as a 2020 model. Expect rounded styling teased on the GV80 Concept from the 2017 New York auto show. Three-row seating, Hyundai's 3.3-liter twin-turbo V-6 and even a V-8 option are possible. A hydrogen fuel cell or plug-in hybrid version also could happen.

With a tarted up SFS, wouldn't even have the option of sticking the Tau V8 (or a smaller V8 which Hyundai likely is working on) in it, much less even the TTV6 for the non-AWD model.

As for soccer moms - there are diff. kinds.

There are those buy something like the RX and then there are those who purchase something like the X5 (and even the X5 M).

The Genesis brand is targeting buyers who are looking for a less expensive alternative to the latter and not the former.

In automotive circles (and increasingly in the real world), the G80 and G90 have surpassed what sedans Acura has to offer.

By going w/ an increasingly FWD-oriented lineup (where FWD-driven sales dominate), the Lexus brand has damaged its itself (where it is seen less and less like a cheaper alternative to MB and more of a competitor to the likes of Acura, Cadillac, Lincoln, etc.).

(Figured you wouldn't answer the pricing question.)

 

[PMCErnie]

The pedantic pontificating continues. YEH, you might want to consider that other people have different opinions about things. Your posts are a jumble of facts, suppositions and guesstimates. In short, you are just like the rest of us. Spare us the outrage.

 

[Mark_888]

^ Please, you're hardly one to talk (coming from someone who argues w/ just about everyone and has pissed off numerous people in this board).

Some may not like my posts, but at least I do it in a reasonable amount of words, instead of babbling on forever about nonsense.

Still going to argue that Hyundai mostly sells smaller cars?

Not sure what you mean? Here are the 2017 YTD sales by model in the USA:

Accent 34,630
Azera 2,025
Elantra 113,539
Equus 19
Genesis 1,003 (2015 or 2016 models only)
Santa Fe 72,761
Sonata 86,963
Tucson 62,964
Veloster 8,823
Ioniq 6,133

Readers can draw their own conclusions about size, but I don't consider size to be all that important. The price is important, and Hyundai usually delivers more features for the same price as a Honda or Toyota (or lower price for equivalently equipped vehicle). For that reason, Hyundai has in the past (this is changing) attracted a lot more unsophisticated car buyers and more first time car buyers.

 

[YEH]

The pedantic pontificating continues. YEH, you might want to consider that other people have different opinions about things. Your posts are a jumble of facts, suppositions and guesstimates. In short, you are just like the rest of us. Spare us the outrage.

And yet, you CAN'T answer a simple/direct question.

Again - what would be the starting price of a tarted up Santa Fe Sport that would compete against the RX and XT5?

- - - Updated - - -

Some may not like my posts, but at least I do it in a reasonable amount of words, instead of babbling on forever about nonsense.

Not my problem that you have limited reading comprehension and a short attention span (and really, the points are pretty simple).

And it's hardly other people not liking your posts - you've been called out by plenty of posters.

Again, you (not surprisingly) also FAILED to answer the question (not that difficult a question to answer - just need an number figure).

And it's hardly just the pricing issue by (going w/ FWD) and Hyundai wanting to the Genesis brand to be a less expensive alternative to BMW and MB rather than Lexus (or Acura - as far as crossovers go).

Kia is slated to launch a RWD crossover based on the G80 platform sometime around 2019 (based on the Telluride concept) - which will, at the very least, get the TTV6 and possibly the Tau V8.

Yeah, Hyundai should've gone w/ cheaper FWD CUVs when Kia is going w/ a RWD one for its premium CUV. lol