GV70 - honest discussion

[Chad86tsi]

You say slow down but you have not given actual figures of what will happen in the next year or the year after etc. Are you making assumptions or do you have facts to show? What is crashing from EV use?

We are in one of the most well supplied parts of the grid in the country, and it was made public that we are facing a 33% chance of brownouts in the next 3 years. In a presentation on September 18, 2019, the council found the Loss of Load Probability in 2024 is 33%. <

That's what is public, the inside info > I can't share.

We are looking at adding new load at non-deal times in the form of EV's, while : over the next eight years, 12 coal plants across the West will shut down and take a huge, dependable block of electricity out of the system.

Will there be enough electricity after coal plants shut down?

Coal plants are shutting down across the West. But will there be enough electricity once they are gone? The answer has industry leaders concerned.

www.kgw.com

What large scale storage banks are slated to come on line before then to capture green watts and supply them in the dark? EV's generally charge during peak load here (and many other places). It's fairly straight forward math. Assume whatever you want from that.

 

[EdP]

We are in one of the most well supplied parts of the grid in the country, and it was made public that we are facing a 33% chance of brownouts in the next 3 years. In a presentation on September 18, 2019, the council found the Loss of Load Probability in 2024 is 33%. <

That's what is public, the inside info > I can't share.

We are looking at adding new load at non-deal times in the form of EV's, while : over the next eight years, 12 coal plants across the West will shut down and take a huge, dependable block of electricity out of the system.

Will there be enough electricity after coal plants shut down?

Coal plants are shutting down across the West. But will there be enough electricity once they are gone? The answer has industry leaders concerned.

www.kgw.com

What large scale storage banks are slated to come on line before then to capture green watts and supply them in the dark? EV's generally charge during peak load here (and many other places). It's fairly straight forward math. Assume whatever you want from that.

That shows they better get moving. I like this segment:
Concern over the future without coal drew a crowd of utility leaders from around the Northwest to a meeting in Portland in October. The gathering was called by the Northwest Power Pool.
Based in Portland, the Power Pool formed 70 years ago to help major power utilities coordinate their activities. It is a nonprofit corporation made up of the biggest utilities in the Northwest.
And sometimes when a problem looms on the horizon, the Power Pool pulls the industry together to try and find a solution.

Edison did not hold back inventing the lightbulb because there was not enough generation.

 

[PetevB]

^ cognitive dissonance, disconnect from reality, or intentional "shell game" with terms and facts?

create the demand and the solutions will come and prices will drop post-haste, right?

You are fine with low efficiency utility scale thermal storage, but not low efficiency nano grid storage?


buying a Prius fits the bill. How many were sold last year? Prius sales have been on decline every year for the last 10 years in a row. Toyota Prius Family Sales Figures
despite inflation-adjusted declining MSRP's.

^ economics and C02 is not driving this behavior.

EV's are also not the solution to C02. Not as designed and implemented anyway. Adding daytime green energy does not change this, and we still don't have a solid plan for storage to shift when green energy can be used.



how about : it was too damn expensive. It came down 5x in ten years. Do you think this trend will apply to home storage? It seems like you are arguing both sides.

How about you put that EV cars battery in the power plant and you buy a prius to drive, you output the same C02 as an EV on dirty power, and now have a lower electrical generation price too. using your figures it will be way more efficient, and cost a whole lot less to put an EV cars battery at the power plant than to put it in a car and charge at home with home generation or daytime green energy. And remember : People will do things that are in their economic best interest.

Or perhaps this is all about rationalizing people that want their EV's (and to have others get them whether they like it or not), even if there are "issues" with the grid compatibility and actual C02 production.



EV's have been available to almost all of us for over a decade (tesla), and there is still no way to charge at most peoples places of daytime business. Tesla has sold over 1 million cars. If it's not that hard, and we already know how to do it, why has it not arrived? I understand supply/demand cycles will force new supply where there is excess demand. The problem is the lag, and consequences of prolonged excess demand on critical systems (the power grid).

So you don't like the home wall storage idea, how about the same mandated extra storage battery concept, what if the 2nd battery is placed in a near by power plant? it will be cheaper in the long run, and : People will do things that are in their economic best interest. Simple economics will win this argument every time...


We should make sure technology B catches up with technology A, or system Z will crash. We are already spending a fortune federally subsidizing growth of technology A, and technology B is still unsettled and mostly "ideas". I care about system Z.

You're arguing for things (local solar with nano-grid storage, nuclear, etc) that you know are difficult, uneconomic any time soon and will in all likelihood always be less economic than the alternatives. Simultaneously there are things like demand responsive charging and daytime charging that are easy, already exist and are proven economic. We can scale those thing incredibly fast as soon as the incentives align, and we know this. Unfortunately those don't align with your "we're screwing up the grid, these new technologies are backfiring" narrative, so you dismiss them. Meanwhile the forest grows all around- while you wait for your perfect solutions it's getting done using all the solutions you're arguing against. Curious that...

 

[Chad86tsi]

That shows they better get moving. I like this segment:
Concern over the future without coal drew a crowd of utility leaders from around the Northwest to a meeting in Portland in October. The gathering was called by the Northwest Power Pool.
Based in Portland, the Power Pool formed 70 years ago to help major power utilities coordinate their activities. It is a nonprofit corporation made up of the biggest utilities in the Northwest.
And sometimes when a problem looms on the horizon, the Power Pool pulls the industry together to try and find a solution.

Edison did not hold back inventing the lightbulb because there was not enough generation.

And They still don't have a solution years later. But the coal plans are going to go away anyway, and now the push for EV's will increase load on top of already growing demand due to population/industry/etc. It's a crappy way to run things. I guess the brownouts will motivate change because "low cost" and "great theories" aren't working. Cart before the horse...

Switching to LED light bulbs was already done, there aren't many more tricks to try.

then there are are more great green ideas like this:

Office of the Mayor - Mayor Jenny A. Durkan

Mayor Jenny A. Durkan

durkan.seattle.gov

There is nothing in their great plan to replace those BTU's, because apparently "someone else will figure that out for us". In the end, it will come out of the grid.

 

[Chad86tsi]

You're arguing for things (local solar with nano-grid storage, nuclear, etc) that you know are difficult, uneconomic any time soon and will in all likelihood always be less economic than the alternatives. Simultaneously there are things like demand responsive charging and daytime charging that are easy, already exist and are proven economic. We can scale those thing incredibly fast as soon as the incentives align, and we know this. Unfortunately those don't align with your "we're screwing up the grid, these new technologies are backfiring" narrative, so you dismiss them. Meanwhile the forest grows all around- while you wait for your perfect solutions it's getting done using all the solutions you're arguing against. Curious that...

If my neighbor buys an EV today, where will he daytime charge it while he's working? It already exists, so where is it?

When will we reach the scale needed for this dream to come true?

You are arguing for grid upgrades that you think are easy and inexpensive using technology that is still in prototype phase, and has been for decades. They will figure it out any day now, right? Just in time to head off the brownouts?

You're arguing for things (local solar with nano-grid storage, nuclear, etc) that you know are difficult, uneconomic any time soon and will in all likelihood always be less economic than the alternatives.

You were arguing in post 58 for how easy and economic local solar is. Are you retracting that?

 

[EdP]

And They still don't have a solution years later. But the coal plans are going to go away anyway, and now the push for EV's will increase load on top of already growing demand due to population/industry/etc. It's a crappy way to run things. I guess the brownouts will motivate change because "low cost" and "great theories" aren't working. Cart before the horse...

Switching to LED light bulbs was already done, there aren't many more tricks to try.

then there are are more great green ideas like this:

Office of the Mayor - Mayor Jenny A. Durkan

Mayor Jenny A. Durkan

durkan.seattle.gov

There is nothing in their great plan to replace those BTU's, because apparently "someone else will figure that out for us". In the end, it will come out of the grid.

The grid people are sadly not keeping up for whatever the reason. So do we stop everything else? EVs? Air conditioners?

This is one potential solution

Watch Saturday Night Live Highlight: New Mercedes - NBC.com

 

[PetevB]

If my neighbor buys an EV today, where will he daytime charge it while he's working? It already exists, so where is it?

Where does he work? I took about a month to add capacity for 3/4 of our employees at my last company. We put in a bank, cost was less than 1k per car charged (3 cars per charger per day). PV shade structures with charging are more expensive obviously, but they're getting popular here. Sure some installations will be harder than others, but why would anyone watching the bottom line do this today? In most cases there is zero incentive to the businesses and electricity isn't even cheaper when the utilities need to pay to give it away. Align the incentives and you'd probably get daytime, switchable load charging for something approaching 50% of EVs in 3 years would be my guess.

You were arguing in post 58 for how easy and economic local solar is. Are you retracting that?

You misunderstood my post. Putting solar on a rooftop costs 3x putting it in a utility scale installation. Until we run out of land that will always be so: permitting, installation, project management all dominate costs at small scale. Those projects only get built due to incentives, and because the utility projects would undercut them in a free market they'd basically never get built. But the solar project down the street, that's getting built like it or not.

"Don't change the way we run things" said every ops guy ever. Change is a headache, I get it. It was easier to stick with whale blubber once upon a time too. And the solutions you're pushing, crackpot nuke plants and uneconomic micro-grids, are precisely the ones that mean you don't need to change...

Chili is decommissioning every coal plant they have by roughly 2025, Europe's taking 50 offline around the same time. The sky's going to fall!

 

[Chad86tsi]

Where does he work? I took about a month to add capacity for 3/4 of our employees at my last company. We put in a bank, cost was less than 1k per car charged (3 cars per charger per day). PV shade structures with charging are more expensive obviously, but they're getting popular here. Sure some installations will be harder than others, but why would anyone watching the bottom line do this today? In most cases there is zero incentive to the businesses and electricity isn't even cheaper when the utilities need to pay to give it away. Align the incentives and you'd probably get daytime, switchable load charging for something approaching 50% of EVs in 3 years would be my guess.

so since it's not incentivized, it may never happen?

You misunderstood my post. Putting solar on a rooftop costs 3x putting it in a utility scale installation. Until we run out of land that will always be so: permitting, installation, project management all dominate costs at small scale. Those projects only get built due to incentives, and because the utility projects would undercut them in a free market they'd basically never get built. But the solar project down the street, that's getting built like it or not.

the only reason most EV's are built are incentives paid for it with tax payer $$, and those $$ would be better spent in utility scale projects according your reasoning. They should exist, but they should not be prioritized and fast tracked when the support structure that feeds them is not ready, let alone deployed.

"Don't change the way we run things" said every ops guy ever. Change is a headache, I get it. It was easier to stick with whale blubber once upon a time too. And the solutions you're pushing, crackpot nuke plants and uneconomic micro-grids, are precisely the ones that mean you don't need to change...

More like demanding we make changes that increase reliability, while being skeptical of incomplete designs that include provisions of "We'll figure it out later, and it (whatever some else comes up with, we don't actually know) will be cheaper too, I promise."

I never pushed crack-pot nuc plants, I merely stated they exist and have promise, much like some of your ideas that are still not adopted on any grand scale.

The nuc plant retrofit can be pulled off in a relatively short timeline compared to many technologies that are still being theorized, and rooftop solar and battery packs on the wall are already here and ready to go. They are more expensive and less efficient. So is filling up your EV at nigh with carbon-based watts, but we are still pushing that aren't we? It will get cheaper if we just keep at it, and look at the costs drop over time you say. Funny, does that not apply to rooftop solar and in-home storage?

Chili is decommissioning every coal plant they have by roughly 2025, Europe's taking 50 offline around the same time. The sky's going to fall!

As Chile continues working to develop utility-scale renewable energy projects, some of the challenges it faces relate to the fact that these projects do not have storage capacity. All the energy that is generated must immediately be injected into the electrical system, producing an oversupply of energy during defined time blocks of low demand. This impacts the price of energy and generates a dependency on conventional sources of energy that are able to provide energy in higher-demand time blocks.

The energy transition and renewable energy in Chile: Top points for foreign investors | DLA Piper

www.dlapiper.com

^ I don't want to adopt this model for our grid.

But yah, EV's for everyone, and damn the coal plants, someone will figure it out for us. Never mind that they have been trying to figure it out for decades are still don't know what to do. We'll just force their hand won't we? We'll show them.

 

[John Baxter]

The Genesis team must be feeling pretty proud right now I'd say.
And with all the new models coming and all the electric cars coming next year, Genesis is sure to fly.

Genesis models are designed in Rüsselsheim (Germany), Namyang (South Korea), and Irvine (United States); and produced in Ulsan (South Korea).

In 2020, J.D. Power named Genesis the most dependable automotive brand in North America.

- Peter Schreyer, formerly at Volkswagen and principal designer of the VW Golf, New Beetle, and the Audi TT, is a Genesis president and heads design management.

- Albert Biermann, former head of the BMW M performance division, oversees Genesis tuning and performance as executive vice president of performance development and high performance vehicles.

- Luc Donckerwolke, former design director of Bentley, Lamborghini and Audi, is Genesis chief creative officer.

- Mark del Rosso, former president of Audi of America, is CEO of Genesis North America.

- Markus Henne, former vice-president at Mercedes-Benz, is CEO of Genesis Motor China.

- Sang-Yup Lee, former designer of the Bentley Continental GT and C-6 Chevrolet Corvette, is Genesis head of design.

- Filippo Perini, former Lamborghini head of design, is Genesis chief designer.

- Fayez Rahman, former development leader at BMW, is Genesis vice-president of architecture development.

- Jaehoon (Jay) Chang is Genesis global head and executive vice president.

- Andrea Jensen, former designer at Škoda and Volkswagen, heads colour and trim.

You look at that team, and it's simply.. wow!

 

[69AlfaNut]

the problem is more than 3 years old, it's been known since inception. Solutions (to a decades-known problem) are still being worked on.



I'm fine with 45%, but it means more than doubling the supply side for that storage facility to get "X" output during off-hours.


Adding solar and wind is easy. Adding storage is the problem. Solar and wind is a well established many decades old tech. As you have said of the storage problem : We’ve only been working on solutions for about 5 minutes-

Until solutions are a well and sorted out matter (which may take decades), EV's will continue to be largely fossil fueled vehicles, and they will strain the already weakening grid. And to what ends? Storage solitons are being worked on in spite of EV's. EV's are not "solving the storage problem" merely because they are being pushed. We could outlaw EV's and this demand for storage will persist.

A real solution is to take that battery out of the EV and hang it on your wall in the garage so you can buy actual green power and used it whenever you need it. A nano-grid. That tech already exists too, and has been nearly perfected. Why not push that instead? That will make the grid way more stable and will actually eliminate a profound amount of C02 production. Putting that battery in a car and charging it with carbon-watts is stupid in comparison. Perhaps mandate that all EV's are sold with nano-grid charging. Then we'd be getting somewhere.

The new Ford F-150 EV will provide stored power to your house without taking it out and hanging it on the wall. I suspect 5 years down the road, all EV batteries will do the same. A no brainer, no?

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[TBickell]

The Genesis team must be feeling pretty proud right now I'd say.
And with all the new models coming and all the electric cars coming next year, Genesis is sure to fly.

Genesis models are designed in Rüsselsheim (Germany), Namyang (South Korea), and Irvine (United States); and produced in Ulsan (South Korea).

In 2020, J.D. Power named Genesis the most dependable automotive brand in North America.

- Peter Schreyer, formerly at Volkswagen and principal designer of the VW Golf, New Beetle, and the Audi TT, is a Genesis president and heads design management.

- Albert Biermann, former head of the BMW M performance division, oversees Genesis tuning and performance as executive vice president of performance development and high performance vehicles.

- Luc Donckerwolke, former design director of Bentley, Lamborghini and Audi, is Genesis chief creative officer.

- Mark del Rosso, former president of Audi of America, is CEO of Genesis North America.

- Markus Henne, former vice-president at Mercedes-Benz, is CEO of Genesis Motor China.

- Sang-Yup Lee, former designer of the Bentley Continental GT and C-6 Chevrolet Corvette, is Genesis head of design.

- Filippo Perini, former Lamborghini head of design, is Genesis chief designer.

- Fayez Rahman, former development leader at BMW, is Genesis vice-president of architecture development.

- Jaehoon (Jay) Chang is Genesis global head and executive vice president.

- Andrea Jensen, former designer at Škoda and Volkswagen, heads colour and trim.

You look at that team, and it's simply.. wow!

That's what impressed me about this new company .They went after and got the best. All that remains to be seen is how long term reliability will be.

 

[69AlfaNut]

That's what impressed me about this new company .They went after and got the best. All that remains to be seen is how long term reliability will be.

I have had great experience with a 2014 Kia Soul and 2019 Optima SLX - impressive build quality and reliability and good dealer experiences. Which is why I decided to look at the GV70 in the first place.

 

[PetevB]

so since it's not incentivized, it may never happen?

Incentivized as in change the rule to make consumer prices reflect the wholesale market, nothing more.

These models already exists in other countries- Australia, Chile, etc, and regulations are moving towards dynamic pricing in the US as well. When people can charge their cars for near nothing at certain times (those times when we're curtailing PV or paying Arizona to take our power) your intractable, impossible problem of charging cars during the day solves itself virtually overnight and flips EVs from part of the “problem” (in your mind) to part of the solution. Given that you can’t envision something that simple working it doesn’t surprise me at all that you can’t imagine more complex solutions. Luckily you don’t need to…

I must say I am a bit impressed that of all the potential fixes to the issue you manage to land on two that won’t end up being a significant part of the solution.

 

[Chad86tsi]

Incentivized as in change the rule to make consumer prices reflect the wholesale market, nothing more.

These models already exists in other countries- Australia, Chile, etc, and regulations are moving towards dynamic pricing in the US as well. When people can charge their cars for near nothing at certain times (those times when we're curtailing PV or paying Arizona to take our power) your intractable, impossible problem of charging cars during the day solves itself virtually overnight and flips EVs from part of the “problem” (in your mind) to part of the solution. Given that you can’t envision something that simple working it doesn’t surprise me at all that you can’t imagine more complex solutions. Luckily you don’t need to…

I must say I am a bit impressed that of all the potential fixes to the issue you manage to land on two that won’t end up being a significant part of the solution.

It's not intractable or or impossible, it's just observing human behavior and structures of our society.

People that live in apartments or homes without means to charge will just have to not drive I guess because it will take more than a few years to change that, incentives or not. It will certainly not be "virtually overnight". Even if the fed gave away chargers, where will they plug them in? "somebody will do it". Who is that somebody, and where will that $$ come from? Build the cars and well solve the charging problems later? How about we keep things in balance instead?

In some ways, incentives ($$) isn't even the only problem and thus is not a strong solution. I live in a state where we have bottle deposits on most beverages. in 2017 the return was doubled while at the same time having that return applied to a much wider array of what beverages. The goal was to increase recycling. Doubling is a pretty big $$ incentive, and it only changed behavior a little (10-15%). < expected human behavior. This did literally did change overnight, and still took a few years to see those meager gains.

There are plenty of incentives that do not change societal behavior in sweeping meaningful ways. Incentives sometimes only change behavior in a select few, and it's often not those that most need it. if we don't offer fixes for those people, well I guess it just won't happen. I got a hybrid in 2009 when federal incentives basically paid the difference between Hybrid and normal gas. That model was discontinued a few years later because people didn't buy it. It got a real 35 PMG in the city vs 23 for the "normal" model. Incentive was there, it still failed. It even had a lot more power and was more fun to drive, it still failed. < expected human behavior.

Making it cheap to charge mid-day for someone that can't plug in mid-day does them no good, and the price difference isn't enough to change that even if they do have control of the resource, and many don't have any control at all. An employer with 200 parking spaces doesn't' have enough incentive to make 100 of those spaces electric, and may not be able to even if they did have incentive. Why does an employer want to pay to charge your car? Even if it were free, a lot of places won't be able to do it. A person that works there is screwed and must buy non-green power, or use an ICE.

 

[EdP]

Making it cheap to charge mid-day for someone that can't plug in mid-day does them no good, and the price difference isn't enough to change that even if they do have control of the resource, and many don't have any control at all. An employer with 200 parking spaces doesn't' have enough incentive to make 100 of those spaces electric, and may not be able to even if they did have incentive. Why does an employer want to pay to charge your car? Even if it were free, a lot of places won't be able to do it. A person that works there is screwed and must buy non-green power, or use an ICE.

Why would they want to make 100 charging stations for 200 cars? Given the range of many EVs I could easily go a week on a single charge. Takes a couple of hours so once charged, you move and let someone else use the station.

My employer bought my gas so he would probably want to pay to charge my car. Or he can charge and make money like the commercial chargers do.

 

[Chad86tsi]

Why would they want to make 100 charging stations for 200 cars? Given the range of many EVs I could easily go a week on a single charge. Takes a couple of hours so once charged, you move and let someone else use the station.

My employer bought my gas so he would probably want to pay to charge my car. Or he can charge and make money like the commercial chargers do.

If you are saving up to do a full charge once a week, it's more than a couple hours, it's more likely a full shift. in a typical 5 day work week you get 5 full charges per spot. 40 stalls would cover 200 spaces on this rotation. You need some over supply so people don't get stranded. Pick whatever number you want.

average sales price of cars in the US for 2020: $38,960

Average price of chevy volt : $27,284

^ Incentive? yet they have to almost give those cars away.

Volt sales have seen a year over year decline the last 5 years. Why didn't your employer buy you one of those? He had a very strong financial incentive to do so. He still got you a ICE.

Cost to fill an average EV in todays market $9

lets cut that by 300% with cheap solar with time of day pricing and call it $3. You charge your car once a week. You save $6 a week. It saves you $312 a year by switching over to this model. If the stall itself and all horizontal improvements cost $8000, when does it break even? Where is the incentive even with the cheaper power?

Now you have to work a different shift or take a different job because your car is charging while you are at work, and your employer didn't' have capacity to serve that much load.

If we took that parking lot scenario and said we have 50 stalls charging at any time, and they each pulled 32 amps at 240VAC, they need 1600 amps of additional service. Do they have it? . Who will pay for the new transformer and lines? does the power company have capacity? The business down the street wants to do the same thing, 1600 more amps. How will that load be served? It's not just "plug it in and let someone else figure it out".

 

[EdP]

If you are saving up to do a full charge once a week, it's more than a couple hours, it's more likely a full shift. in a typical 5 day work week you get 5 full charges per spot. 40 stalls would cover 200 spaces on this rotation. You need some over supply so people don't get stranded. Pick whatever number you want.

average sales price of cars in the US for 2020: $38,960

Average price of chevy volt : $27,284

^ Incentive? yet they have to almost give those cars away.

Volt sales have seen a year over year decline the last 5 years. Why didn't your employer buy you one of those? He had a very strong financial incentive to do so. He still got you a ICE.

Cost to fill an average EV in todays market $9

lets cut that by 300% with cheap solar with time of day pricing and call it $3. You charge your car once a week. You save $6 a week. It saves you $312 a year by switching over to this model. If the stall itself and all horizontal improvements cost $8000, when does it break even? Where is the incentive even with the cheaper power?

Now you have to work a different shift or take a different job because your car is charging while you are at work, and your employer didn't' have capacity to serve that much load.

If we took that parking lot scenario and said we have 50 stalls charging at any time, and they each pulled 32 amps at 240VAC, they need 1600 amps of additional service. Do they have it? . Who will pay for the new transformer and lines? does the power company have capacity? The business down the street wants to do the same thing, 1600 more amps. How will that load be served? It's not just "plug it in and let someone else figure it out"

That's a lot of work to come up with a good negative scenario. I imagine there will be other alternatives in the next few years too.

My boss did not buy me a car, he just pays for me gas. FWIW, we would have had the capacity you describe but we only had 20 employees.

 

[Chad86tsi]

That's a lot of work to come up with a good negative scenario. I imagine there will be other alternatives in the next few years too.

My boss did not buy me a car, he just pays for me gas. FWIW, we would have had the capacity you describe but we only had 20 employees.

So are the negative scenarios true or not? This is not a zero-sum game. both sides have a point. No one wants to hear the negative side? That does nothing to the truth.



And there are places that do not have capacity. Apartments are a great example of "just enough" capacity. Same with some older industrial areas that have already out-grown the grid. Somebody has to think about this stuff so we don't break the system, lets not shut that somebody up and double the load faster than can be served anway. No one is charging their cars during blackouts.

So your boss had incentives that he didn't act on? If he had a chance to pay $6000 upfront to charge your car for $9 a week, would he take it? How Much Do EV Charging Stations Cost? Expect $6,000 On Average

 

[EdP]

So are the negative scenarios true or not? This is not a zero-sum game. both sides have a point. No one wants to hear the negative side? That does nothing to the truth.



And there are places that do not have capacity. Apartments are a great example of "just enough" capacity. Same with some older industrial areas that have already out-grown the grid. Somebody has to think about this stuff so we don't break the system, lets not shut that somebody up and double the load faster than can be served anway. No one is charging their cars during blackouts.

So your boss had incentives that he didn't act on? If he had a chance to pay $6000 upfront to charge your car for $9 a week, would he take it? How Much Do EV Charging Stations Cost? Expect $6,000 On Average

There are many negatives as you point out. Can they be overcome? Very possible but you have to want to. Go back a couple of hundred years and you can find many negatives, many products that ":will never work" but they were overcome and we use them every day.

Will there be problems? Sure. I don't doubt that but we can give up or find solutions?

Why would my boss put in a charging station if none of us owned and electric car? There was, and still is, no reason to act on incentives not to be used. that would be a poor business decision.
There is a new series on History Channel, The Machines that Built America. You may enjoy it.
You may find this list interesting

10 Inventions Experts Said Would Never Work

We usually think of scientists and mathematicians as pure geniuses. Industry experts are paid to know the market, so their predictions should surely be somewhat reliable. If not them, surely we can tr

www.therichest.com

 

[Chad86tsi]

There are many negatives as you point out. Can they be overcome? Very possible but you have to want to. Go back a couple of hundred years and you can find many negatives, many products that ":will never work" but they were overcome and we use them every day.

Will there be problems? Sure. I don't doubt that but we can give up or find solutions?

going back hundreds of years, there are also examples of humans creating their own problems, and simply planning better would have alleviated their woes. Some problems were simply awful and needless. I think people want to solve these problems, others want to minimize them. You could have both you know...

Why would my boss put in a charging station if none of us owned and electric car? There was, and still is, no reason to act on incentives not to be used. that would be a poor business decision.
There is a new series on History Channel, The Machines that Built America. You may enjoy it.
You may find this list interesting

10 Inventions Experts Said Would Never Work

We usually think of scientists and mathematicians as pure geniuses. Industry experts are paid to know the market, so their predictions should surely be somewhat reliable. If not them, surely we can tr

www.therichest.com

So we should build the cars now and figure it out later?

Or we could try to synchronize these efforts.

When one person in charge of great ideas says it will need to happen in 5 years and another person in charge of the behind the scenes stuff that makes sure it happens says it will take longer, just stick with the 5 year plan anyway? I think a few military battles were lost with this thinking, and some of those militaries no longer exist.