Hyundai Performance Figures vs. the Competition

[zielritter]

I was reading an article on MotorTrend today about the Kia K900, which shares with the Genesis and Equus a version of the 5.0 Tau.

One thing I've noticed over the years is a disparity in performance between Hyundai's offerings and the offerings of direct competitors with equal, or sometimes substantially less, HP.

Is it weight, transmission laziness, Hyundai being generous on power quotes, peak vs sustained power or the overall peakiness (RPM wise) of Hyundai's current normally aspirated offerings?

Some luxury peer examples are below. I cite Edmund's unless indicated otherwise to be as consistent with testing methodology as possible.

2012-14 Genesis 3.8
333hp @ 6400RPM
0-60: 6.4s
quarter mile: low-mid 14's (C&D ran the '09 at 14.6s)
weight: ~4000lbs with options; 3824lbs base model

2012-14 Genesis 5.0
429hp @ 6400RPM
0-60: 5.3s
quarter mile: 13.7s (C&D)
weight: 4234lbs

2015 Kia K900
420hp @ 6400RPM
0-60: 5.7s
quarter mile: 14.1s (C&D)
weight: 4277lbs

2014 Infiniti Q50
328hp @ 7000RPM
0-60: 5.5s
quarter mile: 13.7s
weight: 3574lbs base model

2014 Infiniti Q70 3.7l V6
330hp @ 7000RPM
0-60: 5.9s
quarter mile: Not able to find, but probably around 14-14.3 since it uses the same power train as the Q50 but is heavier.
weight: 3858lbs

2014 BMW 535i
302hp @ 5800RPM
0-60: 5.9s (528 with only 241hp got there @6.4s)
quarter mile: 13.9s (C&D)
weight: 3814lbs

2014 Lexus ES 350
268hp @ 6200RPM
0-60: 6.5s
quarter mile: 14.4s (MT)
weight: 3549lbs


The Koreans tend to be a bit on the portly side, but I think a definite trend can be deduced that it takes them more HP (at least peak) to achieve similar performance.

Thoughts?

 

[GenesisCaptain]

Torque is what produces acceleration, so comparing the torque is a better engine performance metric. The genesis engines are relatively low torque engines. And for what it is worth, I have always thought BMW is a major engine performance sandbagger.

 

[zielritter]

But the torque of the lambda still exceeds that of the VQ and the Toyota 3.5, yet both perform as good or much better given just a couple hundred pounds weight difference.

 

[geops]

torque is what will get you to 60 quicker in most cases but it still depends on weight. The best metric for performance however is power to weight ratio, read as hp per ton or lb. A simple examle: a 500c motorcycle can destroy any of the listed cars with 3.0l+ engines including the genesis 5.0. Same goes for a 200hp KTM for example. The same way you can calculate torque to weight which will matter more for 0-60 times while power to weight is important for top speed and acceleration over 100mph.

P.S. Actual figures for the genesis 5.0 r-spec according to some magazines are 0-60 in 4.8sec and 1/4 mile in low 13sec.

 

[zielritter]

P.S. Actual figures for the genesis 5.0 r-spec according to some magazines are 0-60 in 4.8sec and 1/4 mile in low 13sec.

I understand all that you said and considered that when making my point. I am well aware of every time out there published for the 5.0 and 3.8. As I mentioned in my OP, I used the same source to be consistent with testing methods used by the publication.

Some publications use the 1ft rollout while others don't. Some have proprietary correction methods for weather factors while others use the SAE standard. Those other magazines aren't the "actual figures" as you say, but rather figures achieved via different testing methods.

I used Edmund's for 0-60 and C&D (when available) for quarter mile across the board. It makes comparisons accurate and honest. That same magazine you quote 4.8s for the R-Spec probably got a half second lower for every other vehicle versus Edmund's too. See what I mean?

All things equal, it just seems like Hyundai/KIA need higher peak power (and torque) ratings to achieve the same performance stats as peers.

Looking at dynos of the coupe, my theory is they are (still) being generous with their stated HP/torque figures. They were busted in the early 2000's with the Delta motor's bogus power figures, and a lot of dyno sheets appear to show larger-than-expected drive train losses in the present motors as well. This means A) overstated crank HP; B) poorly designed drive train.

I think the down-rating of the 2015 sedans is less about "driveability" and more about reflecting probably what the true power of the GDI engines was originally. Maybe I just am too cynical, but I thought early on that performance stats were a bit lower than the output number would suggest. Still love the car, but just an observation I've made that connects with past Hyundai shenanigans.

Edmund's also does a dyno WHP comparison of the Nissan, Hyundai, Chevy and Ford V8's. The Tau fared well, but even the testers implied that rated 429hp was maybe a tad on the liberal side.

 

[daviderle]

This article may provide some food for thought:

http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/2012-hyundai-genesis-50-r-spec-dyno-tested.html

"The conclusion? All in all, the Tau 5.0 V8 is in the mix. It's ultra-smooth, quiet and consistent and isn't afraid to rev. It is delivering perhaps just a hair less power to the wheels than expected when you consider the dyno results and ratings of other manufacturers' stuff. Nothing major, and it could simply be that other manufacturers build more of a hedge into their ratings than does Hyundai."

Although in principle, I agree with you in regards to the 4.6 (especially with tailwalker Dyno run), I think we can give them a little slack as they seem to be getting closer, at least on the R-Spec as documented by this article...

Just my two cents...

 

[zielritter]

This article may provide some food for thought:

http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/2012-hyundai-genesis-50-r-spec-dyno-tested.html

"The conclusion? All in all, the Tau 5.0 V8 is in the mix. It's ultra-smooth, quiet and consistent and isn't afraid to rev. It is delivering perhaps just a hair less power to the wheels than expected when you consider the dyno results and ratings of other manufacturers' stuff. Nothing major, and it could simply be that other manufacturers build more of a hedge into their ratings than does Hyundai."

Although in principle, I agree with you in regards to the 4.6 (especially with tailwalker Dyno run), I think we can give them a little slack as they seem to be getting closer, at least on the R-Spec as documented by this article...

Just my two cents...

Thanks, David. Yes, that's the exact article I was referring to in my post about the comparisons between V8's. I agree that they're trying and being innovative. Hopefully as they feel they've gained enough respect in the US market the pushing-the-envelope on MPG and power ratings will toned down.

The Genesis is a great car in its own right. Just focus on continuing to refine steering feedback and ride compliance (and maybe transmission responsiveness while you're at it ) and they will be fine.

 

[EXBMWGUY]

I'd bet we will see better performance from the Koreans in the future coming from more experience fine tuning the transmission shift points together with engine designs that have flatter hp and torque curves. They are making huge progress, but just don't have the 30+ years in the automotive performance game that some of the others do.

 

[dg_moore]

When you're driving on real roads in real traffic, what difference does it make? A couple of HP here and a few 10ths of a second there are imperceptible.

 

[amartz]

A co-worker has a 370Z. With him leading the way, we rolled from about 20mph (after a car in front turned off) to about 70mph. My 2102 3.8 pretty much stayed glued to his rear bumper the whole time. I was much happier with the result than he was!

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[zielritter]

When you're driving on real roads in real traffic, what difference does it make? A couple of HP here and a few 10ths of a second there are imperceptible.

That's not relevant at all to my point. I'm not complaining about my subjective perception of the vehicle's performance.

I'm merely relaying an observation that the stated specs aren't necessarily correlating with measurable real world experience when comparing to peer data. The difference isn't reprehensible but is noticeable when reading reviews.

 

[zielritter]

A co-worker has a 370Z. With him leading the way, we rolled from about 20mph (after a car in front turned off) to about 70mph. My 2102 3.8 pretty much stayed glued to his rear bumper the whole time. I was much happier with the result than he was!

Yeah the Lambda GDI is a great engine - no questioning that. I just think the 333/348 at the crank is a bit generous. It's still amazing to think that a V6 is putting out power and torque ratings comparable to V8's from not too long ago.

Glad to hear your stuck with a 370. That's pretty neat.

 

[Aquineas]

I've always believed (speculatively, not anecdotally) that Hyundai intentionally went conservative with their engine tunes to preserve the transmissions. One other thing to consider is the audible character of the engine. Would luxury car buyers accept a Camaro or a Mustang exhaust note? Some likely would, some likely wouldn't, but my point is, an engine tuned for a luxury car might yield different performance characteristics than one tuned for a market where many owners are going to replace their intakes and exhausts anyway. I don't know of too many Genesis owners switching out their intakes or exhausts; I'm sure it's done and those who do so don't mind a little more edge. Personally, I don't want excess exhaust burble on a luxury car, but to each his/her own; I've certainly done every superficial modification I could to eek out more performance on past vehicles I've owned; but I stopped with my 2003 Altima V6 (I ran a 14.2 99.x 1/4 mile with intake, exhaust, and header changes, but the "growl" and "snarl" began to wear on me after a while).

In any case, for the sake of discussion, here's a link to a dyno for the Lexus IS F:

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-f/389057-stock-is-f-dyno-results-vs-is350.html

The 5.0L Genesis V8 and the 5.0L Lexus V8 might as well be kissing cousins; one seems to have higher peak torque, the other seems to have higher peak power.

 

[scottdk]

Yeah the Lambda GDI is a great engine - no questioning that. I just think the 333/348 at the crank is a bit generous. It's still amazing to think that a V6 is putting out power and torque ratings comparable to V8's from not too long ago.

Glad to hear your stuck with a 370. That's pretty neat.

Anyone remember Matt AKA PINGGOLF?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBIEvo5IaLk"]Hyundai Genesis V8 vs 370Z - YouTube[/ame]

 

[daviderle]

Anyone remember Matt AKA PINGGOLF?

Indeed, he was the one that got me thinking of finding a way to disable ESC in the first place (http://genesisowners.com/hyundai-genesis-forum/showthread.php?t=2367) back in early 2009...

For me, he was sorely missed! As matter of fact, I stopped frequenting the forum when he left, until I got the R-Spec back in April...

 

[zielritter]

^^ Yep, I've read his ESC fuse pull thread with the remote switch. I guess he sold the car and moved on? I left the forum or became less active before I joined.

 

[scottdk]

Yeah, he moved on when a few members were objective to a point of view of a particular subject/topic. This was right after he bought a new supercharged Nissan Titan. I can't remember the topic, but he felt like he was getting gang-banged by everyone, so he basically got defensive, cried, then threatened to leave, then actually left. I liked Matt, he added a lot of good info to the community, and was probably the first owner to do a giant burnout at a 4 way stop loaded with cars around, LOL! I remember forum member ASHDUMP thinking this was very funny as well as myself back then. We thought he was nuts. I think he was a little soft and he would NEVER survive some of the newer members that joined the forum in the last couple of years. Back then, everyone was new, the Genesis was new and everyone played nice because we were all so damn excited to own and drive a Genesis - a car that was a complete under-dog and no one knew what it was back in late 2008 and early 2009 and if they did, they thought we were all nuts for buying one.

 

[zielritter]

Yeah, he moved on when a few members were objective to a point of view of a particular subject/topic. This was right after he bought a new supercharged Nissan Titan. I can't remember the topic, but he felt like he was getting gang-banged by everyone, so he basically got defensive, cried, then threatened to leave, then actually left. I liked Matt, he added a lot of good info to the community, and was probably the first owner to do a giant burnout at a 4 way stop loaded with cars around, LOL! I remember forum member ASHDUMP thinking this was very funny as well as myself back then. We thought he was nuts. I think he was a little soft and he would NEVER survive some of the newer members that joined the forum in the last couple of years. Back then, everyone was new, the Genesis was new and everyone played nice because we were all so damn excited to own and drive a Genesis - a car that was a complete under-dog and no one knew what it was back in late 2008 and early 2009 and if they did, they thought we were all nuts for buying one.

Ah, I see. Yeah reading back through his later posts, him and I may have butted heads on a couple of things.....

Either way, cool video despite the very thick southern accent . It looks like he got the jump on the 350hp Nismo and then got walked once the Z traction. I don't go around doing that stuff all the time but I'd be lying if I didn't say it's fun as hell.

Wish there were more videos of the Genesis in some 'ole fashion stop light wars.

 

[Youseethefight]

Great article.

thanks!

This article may provide some food for thought:

http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/2012-hyundai-genesis-50-r-spec-dyno-tested.html

"The conclusion? All in all, the Tau 5.0 V8 is in the mix. It's ultra-smooth, quiet and consistent and isn't afraid to rev. It is delivering perhaps just a hair less power to the wheels than expected when you consider the dyno results and ratings of other manufacturers' stuff. Nothing major, and it could simply be that other manufacturers build more of a hedge into their ratings than does Hyundai."

Although in principle, I agree with you in regards to the 4.6 (especially with tailwalker Dyno run), I think we can give them a little slack as they seem to be getting closer, at least on the R-Spec as documented by this article...

Just my two cents...

 

[daviderle]

Ah, I see. Yeah reading back through his later
Either way, cool video despite the very thick southern accent . It looks like he got the jump on the 350hp Nismo and then got walked once the Z traction. I don't go around doing that stuff all the time but I'd be lying if I didn't say it's fun as hell.

Wish there were more videos of the Genesis in some 'ole fashion stop light wars.

Just for you and for old times sake:

[YOUTUBE]CloGADfmIn8[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]0QVFKXaZh1c[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]xy2R1zGV3wc[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]QhQGbzTcdHQ[/YOUTUBE]​

Looking back, indeed he was a nutter...