K&N filter

[JDC]

Ah, this reminds me back in the day when I had a Jet Chip in my DOHC Grand Prix.

My how times have changed.....for the better

 

[nearwater]

Probably, if you had your OEM ECU re-flashed. You could tell the dealer to not touch the ECU, as in leave the map alone.

At one dealership I went to, for a non-ECU/non-engine/non-electrical issue repair, the tech looked at the map. He discovered it was custom and wrote over it, but he saved it to the dealership computer. I told him it was illegal to copy custom software, my map, without my permission. The service manager came in and said there was nothing he could do, and would not give me back a copy of my original custom map (I did have one at the house and another copy loaded in the secondary map location of the ECU).

I advised him to stay put, and went to the dealership manager, and briefly explained the details of his service department 1: writting over a custom map without my consent while they were only authorized to work on a completely seperatge issue and 2: stealing my map and putting in on their computer, and lastly, to give me back that map - erasing it from their PC, or the local judge would fine and order them to do so.

He was a retired attorney and understood what poor legal and customer service sense and poor decision the service department had made. He had the map back in my hands within 5 minutes.

The probability of the dealership erasing your map, if they come to discover a custom map on your OEM system, seems likely, and perhaps it may end up - in the long run, if you have any engine issues later, voiding the engine warranty, as the ECU is central to the functioning of the engine. It is unlike almost any other part of the car, and modifying that changes many aspects of how the engine should - OEM wise - run, per the manufacturer.

But, on a piggyback system, which is more likely what you will have, unless re-flashes come about for your Genesis, your OEM ECU map would not be touched, as the piggy-back system has it's own map that over-rides a portion of the OEM ECU functioning.

That is one reason to have the new ECU/piggyback with software, so you can always reload/modify the map yourself. At the dyno, make sure you tell them you want a copy of all of your run files and a copy of the resulting map, on a zip drive.. to take home.

If they say nope, they don't go there, go somewhere else. I initially found several that said no. I talked to the managers and they relented. My favorite place I stayed in the booth during the tuning, providing feedback of how I wanted the AFR changed in the ranges, as well as after the map was done, to 'test' the results and visually ensure by shifting the AFR out of range, incrementally, to make sure it was spot on, myself. I've seen a number of tuners just tune to their trained "AFR", and call it good.

I must have 600-700+ run files by now. I was so anal about it I made a spread sheet, with the various parameters of the modification, percent/# of change (+/-) with TTD, HP,TQ, etc. By the time I was done testing intakes, modified air/boxes/intakes and modified exhausts, I had learned quite a bit of what intake mod would create how much power/TTD with what exhaust. It was great learning.

If your software has the ability to load the run files, it is great for comparison of each and every mod you make and your understanding of how those mods truely effect the cars performance.

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of work do you do?
Are you an electrical engineer with ECU development experience?
I work in the automotive field and work on a module that's probably more complex than an ECU, but I have no use for the knowledge/skills I acquired, as it has little to no effect on vehicle performance.
I'd love to work on ECU calibration and stuff so that I could actually use it on my car.

Dan

 

[JDC]

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of work do you do?
Are you an electrical engineer with ECU development experience?
I work in the automotive field and work on a module that's probably more complex than an ECU, but I have no use for the knowledge/skills I acquired, as it has little to no effect on vehicle performance.
I'd love to work on ECU calibration and stuff so that I could actually use it on my car.

Dan

retired forensic phychologist now playing with things I enjoy

 

[nearwater]

retired forensic phychologist now playing with things I enjoy

No wonder why you're very good at details.
Enjoying the life? I'm jealous, man. I still got quite a few more years(more like a couple decades) before I can even think about retiring.

Let us know what you find out about the Genesis' ECU mapping, if you're interested in finding out.
Thanks again,

Dan

 

[scottdk]

No wonder why you're very good at details.
Enjoying the life? I'm jealous, man. I still got quite a few more years(more like a couple decades) before I can even think about retiring.

Let us know what you find out about the Genesis' ECU mapping, if you're interested in finding out.
Thanks again,

Dan

I hear ya Dan, I only have a few left too. Decades that is......32 years until I can retire at 60.

Lifes a bitch.

 

[nearwater]

I hear ya Dan, I only have a few left too. Decades that is......32 years until I can retire at 60.

Lifes a bitch.

Ain't it?
What can we say.. gotta do what you gotta do, right?

Dan

 

[Disaster]

If you do the research you will find a lot of reasons why a K&N filter is a bad idea. The main two being they DO NOT filter as well, and they can get oil on the MAF...making it not work properly and actually hurting performance.

 

[yuhaze]

@disaster
It sounds like you've done this research. Don't keep us in suspense! What are the many ways this filter is bad? Can you point to me references as well?

Thanks!

 

[Rey]

There is a persistent internet myth that K&N filters contaminated the wires on the Mass Air Sensor (MAF). That myth may have arisen in the days when K&N delivered filters unoiled and owners oiled them. Someone thinking "more is better" may have drenched a K&N with filter oil so the filter media was supersaturated causing the filter to lose oil to the air stream.
For at least a decade K&N has delivered filters preoiled with a light misting of filter oil.
There is no problem whatsoever with K&Ns. Still don't believe me? Talk to K&N.
As for this chatter about K&Ns "not working", I refer you to the most recent tech questions in Road & Track magazine, where an expert addresses the question. Basically, motors are air pumps. It takes energy (gas mileage and power) to run an air pump. If the pump works less at a given speed it means more power available and better gas mileage. Try breathing through a soda straw. It takes more energy than breathing through your mouth.
It is true that K&Ns do not deliver huge power/gas mileage increases. Modern paper filters are cheap and comparatively less restrictive than oil bath filters of yesteryear.
Nevertheless, the data I have seen on a flow bench indicates that a new K&N flows better than a new paper filter. The difference is not huge, but it is there.

 

[JDC]

I agree, they do process more CFM. I spent some time fabricating up my own K-N filters for a bit. One example, an OEM K-N initially filtered about 143 CFM, for an OEM replacement needing 120 CFM (dual filters @60 CFM each)!

So two K-N would have CFM flowed 286. When I was done modifying my K-N's, a single one would flow about 234 CFM each, or 468 CFM for a pair. I found that even with that ability for flow more CFM, the engine was still restricted. I ended up making a filter that could flow in the high 700's, which equaled having no air intake on at all, but the duty cycyle on the FI's went from the 60 percentile, to the 90's, and MPG fell through the floor. Rather then put in higher flow FI's, I dropped down the filter size back to the high 400's.

K-N calculates CFM flow, exampled for a 'round straight' filter as:

CFM = Diameter x Length x 6 x 3.14. They figure that is +/- a few CFM.

There is more than ample research, over decades, including dyno work, etc, to demonstrate that K-N, or similar, on an OEM engine with paper filter, allow more CFM per filter and de-restriction to the engine. K-N has been around a long time and their products have been proven over and over.

Though they no longer sell direct from their Riverside manuf plant, quitting that a few years ago, you can, sometimes, get a walk-through. Neat plant.

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[Disaster]

@disaster
It sounds like you've done this research. Don't keep us in suspense! What are the many ways this filter is bad? Can you point to me references as well?

Thanks!

I have. It is easy. Use Google. There is one link where the guy actually ran tests with a second filter behind a paper filter and a K&N. It was amazing how much more junk the K&N let past, vs. the paper filter. K&N even admits on their website that they don't catch as small particles but they say (incorrectly) that the smaller particles do not cause engine wear. ALL particles cause engine wear.

You can also find plenty of websites where guys talk about K&N filters fouling their MAF sensors. Maybe that is somewhat reduced with the preoiled K&N filters, but you have to oil them yourself eventually.

Finally, there are substitute, high flow paper filters that have more folds, thus more area...or even external paper filters that work similar to K&N. For example, the '90 Honda Prelude filter is very similar to a 3" round K&N. You can buy the NAPA Gold version, which has more area and excellent flow for only $13 bucks.

Which brings up another factor. K&N likes to talk about cost savings but when you consider the initial cost, plus the cost of their expensive oil, there really isn't any cost savings to be had.

For the lazy. Here are three links. Now spend some time finding more on your own.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm

Did you see the dirty 2nd filter? Well that is the result of experiment #1. The test subject was the K&N air filter. Yes it let many particles pass through. The K&N was tested for 501 miles. For those that are curious, the test was conducted in Western WA state during the last week of November and December. All of the driving was on public paved roads. The climate here is damp during this time of the year and definitely not dirty or dusty. This is probably the best case scenario in all honesty. I was shocked by the look of the 2nd filter. I drive this car 6-8K miles a year. Many have asked if the black left on the filter is dirt or is it possibly oil residue. It is indeed dirt and not oil. The same type of deposits were left using a paper Napa filter which has no oil on it at all. That should be the end of that theory.

In the e-mail I received from K&N, I actually got contradictory information on this point. They claimed that the deposit on my test filter was oil (it isn't), and then they said oil does not leave the filter and damage mass air sensors. Honestly, you can't have it both ways. Either oil leaves the filter or it doesn't. Oil will damage a mass air sensor if it gets on the sensor wiring. This is highly documented by TSBs easily available online.

http://forums.maxima.org/infiniti-i30-i35/174026-k-n-air-filter-kind-long-story.html

I have a 2002 I35, and recently my service engine light came on. So this morning, i drove to the dealership, and they told me that it came on because I installed a k&n air filter, and that has caused damage to the mass air flow sensor. I thought that they would say this, so before i took the car to infiniti, i took the car to autozone and they scanned it and said that the mass air flow sensor may be broken. Infiniti said they need to remove the k&n air filter and replace it with a infiniti air filter, and replace the mass air flow sensor. Infiniti said that they wouldn't be able to do the repair under warranty because I have a k&n air filter.

http://forum.ih8mud.com/3477164-post20.html

They don't seem to cover offroad use in this article. I switched back to OEM after seeing the amount of mud that went through the filter into my intake. Can anyone point me towards some documented research and test that shows how it effects the MAF?

 

[stuz88]

I looked into K&N for my PT Cruiser, and they claim a 12HP increase for their complete intake system, which is the big cone filter and intake pipe.
However the stock airbox draws cold air thru a hole in the fender, whereas the K&N is sitting in the engine compartment, pulling in hot air. After some extensive probing i found out they get the 12HP by running the car with the hood open and the cooling fan turned off. So I put a drop in replacement in the stock airbox and I did record a 2mpg improvement over a 1000 mile test. Can't say I noticed any change until I replaced the turbo pipes and fitted a Stage 1 ECU however.

 

[JDC]

I looked into K&N for my PT Cruiser, and they claim a 12HP increase for their complete intake system, which is the big cone filter and intake pipe.
However the stock airbox draws cold air thru a hole in the fender, whereas the K&N is sitting in the engine compartment, pulling in hot air. After some extensive probing i found out they get the 12HP by running the car with the hood open and the cooling fan turned off. So I put a drop in replacement in the stock airbox and I did record a 2mpg improvement over a 1000 mile test. Can't say I noticed any change until I replaced the turbo pipes and fitted a Stage 1 ECU however.

Yes, 'cold air' intakes are the way to go, but much of the time the after market filters/setups sold do not really utilize that type of engineering... so as you said, the aftermarket system pulls hot air from the engine bay. Kinda of a rip off.

 

[ctrcbob]

On our Genesis', the intake air is already "cold air". It has a two stage intake.

First stage is the intake at the front, above the radiator. When you really get your foot into it; the

Second stage flapper door opens on the front of the airbox, to allow more air into the intake. This also is cooler air that gets through from next to the radiator.

 

[2ez24get]

I installed the K&N filter and removed the "Flapper" from the air box. Slight sound change when accelerating and the car pulls a little harder.

 

[P-bar]

I read through all these post and was quite amazed how you all have been duped by K&N. Disaster hit it right out of the field. I come from the diesel forums and the K&N was discussed into great detail. Their is a test that I will put a link on here for your reading . Bottom line they are crappy filters , they clog faster , they let more silica through the media . How ddi you expect them to get more air flow without giving up something else. Unless you are going to turbo or supercharge your ride stick with the paper filter.
http://www.dieselbombers.com/chevro...rticles/16611-duramax-air-filter-testing.html

 

[Fast55]

Not sure why you'd resurrect a 3 year old thread like this unless you have some vendetta against K&N, but I can tell you with some confidence I have not been "duped" by them.

I have actually done before and after dyno pulls on several cars and trucks and have occasionally seen a few HP (not always). I have never had any problem with the filtering ability of a K&N filter on anything. Cars, trucks (yes 4X4's in the dirt), race cars, and motorcycles, both on and off road have had no issues. I'm not a K&N stock holder, I don't work for them, and I'm not a paid spokesman. Basically, the benefit of the swap is that I never buy another filter for whatever I use them on.

In my experience, there are usually 2 possible issues with these filters that people complain of:

"I had to replace my MAF sensor because of oil contamination from the K&N filter"

This is a result of over oiling. I have never heard of this happening on a new K&N filter, only after someone soaks one after cleaning.

The issue with them passing more dirt is old news.

If they "clogged faster" then they would automatically be catching more, not less dirt. One test says this, one test says that. Realistically, they are not as good as some paper filters, but flow MUCH better, and in other cases, they flow about the same, but catch MORE dirt. You can massage the numbers to produce whatever results you want (just ask our President).

Usually, a K&N that really gives up filtering has been cleaned wrong. I have a friend who learned this the hard way.

NEVER use gas or some other solvent to clean one, and like the instructions say, NEVER use compressed air to blow one dry (air dry ONLY). For best results with or without a MAF sensor, NEVER over oil (use the spray in my experience), and let it sit until it's COMPLETELY dry before oiling and there will be no issues.

Shockingly enough, this "expose" on a GM truck board showed AC Delco (OEM) filters to be the "best", but since there is no AC Delco filter available for our cars and the test did not involve a panel filter installed in a Genesis, what should we conclude???

 

[P-bar]

I think it proves that paper is better than pleated/gauze and oil. Oil analysis also prove there is more silica in the oil samples. Cheers