Kia Rival to the Genesis?

[YEH]

Motor Trend is reporting that Kia is going ahead w/ the Amanti replacement (long-rumored to be codename CH) that is to be based on the RWD Genesis platform, but likely not to be powered by the Tau.

Kia's next-generation Amanti will switch from front-wheel-drive to parent company Hyundai's Genesis rear-wheel-drive platform, Motor Trend has learned. The car is expected to launch after the new front-drive Optima, which is scheduled for next summer. The moves will further advance Kia's aggressive makeover, which has been boosted lately by the Soul youth-market hatchback and the recently launched Forte and Forte Koup (coming later this summer) compacts.

We expect the RWD Amanti to be cheaper, sportier looking and slightly smaller than the Hyundai Genesis sedan, possibly with the same 2.0-liter turbo four and 3.8-liter V-6 engine options of the Genesis coupe, but not the Tau V-8. The current Amanti starts at around $26,000 and is powered by a 3.8-liter V-6 with 264 horsepower. Expect the new Amanti (the car's name could also change) by the end of 2011.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2009/112_0907_kia_future_car_plans/index.html

I don't know - w/ the expected arrival year to be 2011, I'm thinking that MT is speaking about the Kia VG sedan, since we haven't seen any news/spy shots of the long-rumored CH (frankly, I don't know why Kia would have both the VG and the CH in development since both are large sedans and I don't know the marketplace is ready for 2 large sedan offerings from Kia).

 

[wallymn]

What is the reason for the Kia not offering the Tau?
If they really are trying to reach up market wouldn't they also want a premium engine?

 

[MattG]

Kia is currently Europe's fastest growing auto brand. I'm no expert, but I am guessing that while that Tau is a great engine, it is not right for a brand that is aiming for Europe's cost conscious buyer.

 

[briansol]

kia is hyundai's little sister (kinda like saturn is to chevy). it only makes sense that it will get hand-me-down platforms to build on.

but just like a camry vs a gs300 or whatever it is, the top of the line model will still be the 'better' car.

 

[YEH]

What is the reason for the Kia not offering the Tau?
If they really are trying to reach up market wouldn't they also want a premium engine?

Likely b/c the Tau is being reserved for "premium" offerings (i.e. - the Genesis and Equus which might eventually become the core for a new lux brand).

kia is hyundai's little sister (kinda like saturn is to chevy). it only makes sense that it will get hand-me-down platforms to build on.

Not always true - the Hyundai i30 was developed off of the Kia cee'd platform.

Hyundai is supposed to be the Toyota fighter w/ Kia being the Honda/Nissan (more sportier) fighter.

The Genesis wouldn't have been part of Hyundai in the States if Hyundai had been willing to risk the billions to set up a new dealer network (we still have to see if the Equus will be branded a Hyundai).

Someone who works for Kia is reporting that both the VG and CH are going to be brought to market - however, instead of slotting above the Optima, the VG will be shrunk a little in size and become the replacement for the Optima, w/ the CH being the RWD replacement for the Amanti (not sure if I totally buy this, but this is what someone who supposedly works for Kia is saying).

If true, I wonder if the VG will keep its basic design (which is pretty darn good) and if the larger CH will resemble the VG?

 

[Mark_888]

What is the reason for the Kia not offering the Tau?
If they really are trying to reach up market wouldn't they also want a premium engine?

The idea that the Tau is a premium engine is false. It is a bigger engine. In most countries, mpg is a significant issue because of the cost of fuel, and a V8 is usually considered to be wasteful for most cars in most of the world.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

The idea that the Tau is a premium engine is false. It is a bigger engine. In most countries, mpg is a significant issue because of the cost of fuel, and a V8 is usually considered to be wasteful for most cars in most of the world.

What is the definition of a premium engine?

 

[YEH]

The idea that the Tau is a premium engine is false. It is a bigger engine. In most countries, mpg is a significant issue because of the cost of fuel, and a V8 is usually considered to be wasteful for most cars in most of the world.

What?

BMW and Mercedes utilize their biggest and best powerplants for their M and AMG variants, respectively.

Acura has long been seen a pretender to the luxury auto brands for not having a V-8 available for its flagship.

Anyway, reportedly the CH Amanti replacement is to based on a shortened Genesis platform - so that means it will likely be smaller than the large VG sedan while being a more "premium" model (probably also why the Tau isn't being offered).

It appears that this may very well be the long-rumored RWD 3 Series fighter - except that Hyundai/Kia decided to give it to Kia.

Now, while I understand that Kia needs desirable products as well, I'm not too keen on this development since it may mean the end of a separate luxury brand from Hyundai/Kia.

Of course, in the future, Hyundai/Kia could still spin off a luxury brand and just transfer the Genesis sedan/coupe, the Equus and the CH (as well as the prerequisite crossover/SUV) to said brand - but that gets real messy and confusing for the consumer.

Having said that - if Kia makes the CH a smaller version of the VG (larger than the 3, but smaller than the 5) - then this may very well be the car for me in the future.

 

[Mark_888]

What?

BMW and Mercedes utilize their biggest and best powerplants for their M and AMG variants, respectively.

Acura has long been seen a pretender to the luxury auto brands for not having a V-8 available for its flagship.

People in Europe and Asia don't think like that. Most MB and BMW's sold in Europe are 4 bangers.

AMG is a performance model, not a luxury model.

The only sense that a V8 is a luxury model is that the owner doesn't care about the price of gas and therefore must be quite well-off. Personally, I see it as a waste of valuable resources that compromises the security of the USA.

Now if there is a very large and heavy vehicle, then a V8 maybe somewhat justified, but I don't think a Kia falls into that category in most cases (not sure about their SUV's).

Besides, we are talking about engines, not the cars. The Tau engine is larger and more powerful than the V6, there is nothing more "premium" about the engine. The fact that the Genesis V8 comes with more luxury items says nothing about the engine, only about conspicuous consumption.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

People in Europe and Asia don't think like that. Most MB and BMW's sold in Europe are 4 bangers.

AMG is a performance model, not a luxury model.

The only sense that a V8 is a luxury model is that the owner doesn't care about the price of gas and therefore must be quite well-off. Personally, I see it as a waste of valuable resources that compromises the security of the USA.

Now if there is a very large and heavy vehicle, then a V8 maybe somewhat justified, but I don't think a Kia falls into that category in most cases (not sure about their SUV's).

Besides, we are talking about engines, not the cars. The Tau engine is larger and more powerful than the V6, there is nothing more "premium" about the engine. The fact that the Genesis V8 comes with more luxury items says nothing about the engine, only about conspicuous consumption.

Cadillac's Northstar is a good example of a premium engine. When it came out over a decade ago, it was powerful, extremely quiet and extremely smooth. I'm pretty sure the Tau has similar traits. No?

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[Mark_888]

Cadillac's Northstar is a good example of a premium engine. When it came out over a decade ago, it was powerful, extremely quiet and extremely smooth. I'm pretty sure the Tau has similar traits. No?

The Northstar had variable cylinder activation IIRC. I guess I just don't see any difference between the Genesis V6 and V8 other than size and HP. The 0-60 times are not much different, and many people report that the 0-30 is faster on the V6.

If people want a more powerful engine, that is their option, but I just don't buy into the "premium" thing.

 

[YEH]

People in Europe and Asia don't think like that. Most MB and BMW's sold in Europe are 4 bangers.

Correction - people in Europe and Asia don't think that luxury autos always need the bigger engine, but the various MB and BMW models w/ the larger engines are nonetheless seen as being "higher" if simply b/c only the wealthy could afford all that petrol.

In addition, the long-wheel base versions of the S Class and 7 (i.e. - "chauffeur driven") pretty much only get the larger engines.

AMG is a performance model, not a luxury model.

While the emphasis is on performance, the AMG and M divisions are, nonetheless, seen as being "higher" on the prestige scale.

And let's not forget truly luxurious makes like Rolls, Bentley and Maybach - pretty much all have V8s, V10s and V12s - and I highly doubt one would ever see one w/ a 4 banger.

Besides, we are talking about engines, not the cars. The Tau engine is larger and more powerful than the V6, there is nothing more "premium" about the engine. The fact that the Genesis V8 comes with more luxury items says nothing about the engine, only about conspicuous consumption.

Larger and more powerful engines usually go w/ more "premium" autos - esp. here in the States.

It's not like Acura is going to stick its new V8 powerplant in the TSX.

 

[Mark_888]

Obviously, if you have a very big and heavy car, a V8 may be needed. The Genesis is not one of those cars and is fairly light at about 3900 lbs (the V6 is even lighter).

The reason why a V8 will not be put into a TSX is not because of the TSX not being a luxury car, it is because:

1. The car is smaller than an Accord (based on European Accord which is smaller than the US).
2. The car is not heavy enough to need a V8.
3. A V8 probably would not even fit in a TSX (the only engine option is 4 cylinder right now).

 

[wallymn]

The Tau V-8 is a premium engine for the reasons laid out in this chat.

It is ONLY available in the top of the line car and then only with the top of the line options..
(better leather etc.....)


As for technology, I would say an engine which generates more HP per litre than any other brand's engine speaks to its content.

 

[Mark_888]

The Tau V-8 is a premium engine for the reasons laid out in this chat.

It is ONLY available in the top of the line car and then only with the top of the line options..
(better leather etc.....)

Yes, the Genesis 4.6 comes with some premium features that the 3.8 does not have, presumably because people who can afford a premium car don't care about gas mileage (hence the more powerful engine). But there is nothing about the Tau that makes it a premium engine by itself, other than being more powerful than the V6.

If you were to ask the a major airline to choose the premium jet engine among a variety of choices (many jets have a least 2 choices of engine manufacturer) they would they would tell that the one with the better fuel economy is the premium one.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

Different people have different opinions on what a premium engine is.

 

[ConceptVBS]

Okay so the VG is a FWD (possibly AWD option available) large car.

CH is the RWD replacement for the Amanti.

Hmm....anybody see the resemblance of Genesis's code name of "BH" with "CH"?

All I want now is "CK": BK is Genesis Coupe's code name. Take the C from CH and K from BK and you have a 4 door sedan based on the Genesis coupe: "CK"

P.S. When a journalist asked a Hyundai exec about the future possibily of a smaller Genesis sedan, say a 3 series sized RWD sedan, all he did was just "smile".

Many people dont realize that Kia and Hyundai regard themselves as competitors rather than partners. Its like the relationship between the once operational GM and Toyota when they introduced the Matrix and Vibe crossover vehicles to the market. They both share the same platform but compete with one another in the same market. I think this is the case with Hyundai and Kia. They are competitors more so than partners.

 

[Mark_888]

Many people dont realize that Kia and Hyundai regard themselves as competitors rather than partners. Its like the relationship between the once operational GM and Toyota when they introduced the Matrix and Vibe crossover vehicles to the market. They both share the same platform but compete with one another in the same market. I think this is the case with Hyundai and Kia. They are competitors more so than partners.

I think it is more like Chevy and Pontiac. They compete against each other (although Pontiac eill be going away) and some cars like the Camaro and Firebird were almost identical. But they are owned by the same company.

Same goes for Hyundai and Kia, they are owned by the same company in Korea. Not quite the same as the GM/Toyota partnership.

 

[YEH]

Obviously, if you have a very big and heavy car, a V8 may be needed. The Genesis is not one of those cars and is fairly light at about 3900 lbs (the V6 is even lighter).

The reason why a V8 will not be put into a TSX is not because of the TSX not being a luxury car, it is because:

1. The car is smaller than an Accord (based on European Accord which is smaller than the US).
2. The car is not heavy enough to need a V8.
3. A V8 probably would not even fit in a TSX (the only engine option is 4 cylinder right now).

The RL didn't "need" a V8 and now Acura is coming out w/ one for its flagship replacement.

Along those lines, neither the 5 Series or E Class "need" V8 engines either and yet the top of the line variants of these cars have V8s.

Heck, w/ all the improved engine technology these days such as DI, one could almost argue that the flagship sedans, the 7 and S Class, don't exactly need V8s either.

Not to mention that both Rolls' and Bentley's upcoming smaller offerings still have 12 cylinders, much less 10 or 8.

All I want now is "CK": BK is Genesis Coupe's code name. Take the C from CH and K from BK and you have a 4 door sedan based on the Genesis coupe: "CK"

I would suspect that the CH would be based on the same shortened BK platfrom as the Genesis Coupe.

Many people dont realize that Kia and Hyundai regard themselves as competitors rather than partners. Its like the relationship between the once operational GM and Toyota when they introduced the Matrix and Vibe crossover vehicles to the market. They both share the same platform but compete with one another in the same market. I think this is the case with Hyundai and Kia. They are competitors more so than partners.

This is true more so than ever since Hyundai partly divested itself from its holdings in Kia and presently owns only 40% of Kia.

 

[Mark_888]

The RL didn't "need" a V8 and now Acura is coming out w/ one for its flagship replacement.

Along those lines, neither the 5 Series or E Class "need" V8 engines either and yet the top of the line variants of these cars have V8s.

Heck, w/ all the improved engine technology these days such as DI, one could almost argue that the flagship sedans, the 7 and S Class, don't exactly need V8s either.

Not to mention that both Rolls' and Bentley's upcoming smaller offerings still have 12 cylinders, much less 10 or 8.

Yep. You are correct, most of these cars could get by with smaller engines. The reason they don't is becasue of conspicuous consumption, and in many cases it is machismo (buying a big engine to make up for certain parts of their anatomy that are smaller than desired).