Long-term updates

[Mark_888]

Very good/valid point.

I recently got rid of my 2001 Land Rover Range Rover 4.6 SE, but we still have a 2007 Mitsu Outlander XLS. The Gen is worlds more refined than either of them, and that includes it's suspension.

If you're used to an LS or Buick you'll probably be caught off guard by the ride of the Genesis. If you're coming from an Infiniti M, Mini Cooper, or another sporty car you probably won't give the ride quality much thought.

According to the Car and Driver (these guys do not prefer a soft ride) video review of the Genesis, the BMW and Infiniti M both have a firmer ride than the Genesis, but they have better suspension control on rough roads compared to the early 2009 Genesis.
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9jpYDtAiWY"]YouTube- 2009 Hyundai Genesis Sedan - Car and Driver[/nomedia]

All this stuff about which vehicles have the firmest ride is just a red herring. Ride is one thing, but suspension control is something different.

 

[jwaters943]

We've been over this before Mark. I do not agree. Car & Driver also stated the V6 rides better than the V8 and yet here many owners feel the exact opposite. You do know what they say about opinions, right?

 

[doug725]

Sorry - though you may wish it so it is not about preference or what car one drove before hand No amount of repeating this makes it so. I drove a beat up 2002 Sante Fe prior - hardly a Lexus. If interested you could also read the suspension support thread from the beginning - specifically adressing the test driving mantra. If only it were that easy.

I agree with Sayantsi and jwaters. The Genesis suspension issue comes down to personal preference. From everything I've heard/read/seen, there no basis for an empirical qualitative judgment of good or bad. Some people love it, others loathe it... many of us are somewhere in between.

What I personally dislike is hearing the allegations (many of which located in this thread) that Hyundai is somehow negligent or unprofessional in their response to an issue that is so incredibly subjective. Nowhere have I found an overwhelming outcry about this, other than the continued cycle repeated on this forum. The (admittedly extremely non-scientific) poll conducted here showed that many more Genesis owners liked or loved their car's ride than disliked or hated it. More expert reviewers have been okay with->impressed with the car's ride than unhappy->unimpressed (though there have been several comments about inconsistent unsettledness on certain surfaces at certain speeds, this was of bigger concern for some than others).

All that said, the crux of this comes down to three things. To those who have issue with the car, but more specifically, Hyundai:

You were not deceived, you were not put in danger, and there's no reason this "issue" should have been a surprise to you.

You purchased a brand new, first model year near-luxury vehicle at a great price. You shelled out $30-45k, when all was said and done, for a car "worth" $5-25k more (for comparably equipped competitors' models). An extensive test drive should be the prerequisite to this purchase - especially if you're the type of person who is sensitive to how a car rides. It's not about blaming the customer over the seller, it's about the reality of the situation.

My family purchased a pre-owned Genesis privately from a man who found the ride bumpy, unsettled, jarring and generally annoying. We took it for a test drive and were more than satisfied with the ride. We bought it. We've had no complaints since. We've had ~10 passengers in the vehicle since... not one comment about the ride. A lot of positives about the interior, sound, roominess, etc.! The previous owner was coming from a Lexus; we're coming from a Pontiac Montana and Mini Cooper. THAT righ there is the difference. What you're used to and what you expect.


The issue at hand is not one of safety. It is not one of honesty. It is not one of loyalty or respect or service. It's one of preference alone. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but there is no reason for Hyundai to shoulder the blame here. Our seller had a hard time letting go of that Genesis, but he was honest enough to realize that he didn't test drive it and as a result, the car just wasn't what he expected.

 

[doug725]

perhaps those still dealing with the suspension should start a private forum or something. I've had over 75 people contact me.

 

[jwaters943]

In other news, misery loves company. So glad you guys found each other.

 

[Mark_888]

We've been over this before Mark. I do not agree. Car & Driver also stated the V6 rides better than the V8 and yet here many owners feel the exact opposite. You do know what they say about opinions, right?

Everyone is certainly entitled to an opinion on this, but there are some organizations that have commented (by word or deed) what they think about the 2009 Genesis suspension. Now, the that fact that they are included in this list below does not mean that their overall opinion of the car is negative, or that they would not recommend the car to be purchased. I personally am still happy with my decision to purchase, but I think the 2009 suspension needs some improvement.

Those who by word or deed have expressed their opinion about the original 2009 Hyundai Genesis sedan suspension:

1. Car and Driver (suspension control needs improvement on rough roads and is not nearly as good as BMW or Infiniti M, even though both have a firmer ride than the Genesis--see video link in my post above)
2. Consumer Reports (ride is unsettled)
3. New York Times (general complaints about suspension for a car with this sophistication and not suitable for NYC streets)
4. Motor Trend (quite negative on suspension in long term update--see top of this thread)
5. Hyundai Motors (obviously thinks suspension improvements were needed to the 2009 model since they made in-line changes during 2009 production year, and more changes for 2010 model year to adjust spring and shock rates)

With regard to the automotive press in this list, there are others, but these are the most obvious and most prestigious that were included above.

So the claim that this is just a matter of opinion, while technically true, seems to be a ruse by some to be in a state of utter denial, rather than any objective analysis.

Again, those who respond by saying that they love their Genesis and are happy with their purchase decision (you can count me among them, although I am not a "love my car" type of person), are skirting the issue--namely, that despite an otherwise outstanding achievement in the history of automotive world (especially when taking price into consideration), the 2009 Genesis sedan needs some improvement with the suspension, and some of us with early 2009 model year cars would like to get the Hyundai-installed 2010 suspension improvements retrofitted to our cars without being called nasty names and a bunch of lunatics.

Lastly, what Car and Driver said (not in the video above, but elsewhere) about the V6 versus V8 "ride" (an ambiguous term at best) is not necessarily related to suspension issues. It is related to the fact that the V8 is 200 lbs heavier and less nimble than the V6. And regardless of which has the most egregious suspension issues, both of them needed to be changed, and Hyundai made changes to both during the 2009 model year and for 2010. Further, the Car and Driver video above makes a correct distinction between ride and suspension control, which you seem to want to ignore.

 

[OBCT]

Sorry - though you may wish it so it is not about preference or what car one drove before hand No amount of repeating this makes it so. I drove a beat up 2002 Sante Fe prior - hardly a Lexus. If interested you could also read the suspension support thread from the beginning - specifically adressing the test driving mantra. If only it were that easy.

I tried keeping up with that thread at first, but it does not contain the type of reading I enjoy or come to this forum looking for. Since I do not share the general opinion of those with said issues, I thought it best to avoid the negativity expressed there (rightly or wrongly), and have chosen instead to read those threads that pertain to or interest me.

Again, I have not read through that thread, I admit, but I do not understand how a test drive before buying a car would not at least suggest a problem with the ride quality (enough to investigate further), especially if it's bad enough to cause such some owners such dissatisfaction now. Did the ride become worse the more you drove?? (Since I did not read the thread, don't feel obliged to respond to this. I may answer my own question later if I'm in the mood.)

Bottom line is, each of you are entitled to your opinion. I'm not disputing the fact that there are owners (maybe a few, maybe some, maybe many, maybe a whole swack -- I just don't know anymore) who are genuinely discontented with the ride of their Genesis. You are free to express that opinion on this forum as you wish (as long as you don't go overboard and break a forum rule). There are quite a few (probably the majority of?) owners who are satisfied with the ride, all things considered. My point (and it's just my opinion) is that some owners may be taking their disappointment too far, blaming others for something that is a fact of life with automobiles. Maybe some of you made a mistake? Maybe not. Maybe the Genesis simply isn't for you? I hope not.

*shrug* I do not want to run any of you out of town over this, but it all begs the question: At what point is it not worth the discomfort? I'm not judging your stance, just speaking from my own perspective, thinking out loud. I don't get it!


Regardless of all that, I think it all goes to show how great this car really is (or at least in areas other than the ride, for some) ... that there are those who dislike their suspension but still own the car, willing to live with an uncomfortable ride for as long as they have.


(BTW, if you want to discuss something that disappoints me in this car, it's the lack of internal hard drive for storing music/photos/videos, and the lack of customizability and on-screen display options for music tracks (especially when played via USB). Also, though I like the Navigation system, it has certain idiosyncracies that bug me. I don't consider the Genesis a perfect vehicle by any stretch. The ride is not something that I really notice or worry about.)

 

[OBCT]

^^^ I'm with you there, Mark. I wouldn't call the '09 Genesis' suspension perfect, so I guess there was room for improvement. Perfection is difficult to come by (even with regard to "settledness" vs. "unsettledness"), though I do appreciate your distinction between ride stiffness and the car's unsettledness.

I'm still not sure that the complaints are wholly justified (the Genesis costs less $$$ than the cars specifically listed in your above post, and arguably wasn't designed to be a sophisticated ride on NYC streets), but it isn't as though these issues are isolated to a couple of people in a vacuum, that is true.

I'm not as emotionally involved in this one way or another as it may appear, so that's all I'll say on the subject.

 

[jwaters943]

Car & Driver

Highs: Great ride, roomy interior, stitched leather on the dash.

Lows: Feels underpowered at full throttle, IRS won’t believe your claimed income.

And consider this: The 3.8’s ride is as good as, if not better than, the 4.6’s. The V-6 not only experiences less suspension crash than the V-8 but feels lighter and more spry.

Edmunds

I literally have no complains about this wonderful sedan. Good seat comfort, smooth ride, good mileage (nearly 26 mpg), long range (over 400 miles), an easy to use navigation system, excellent visibility and more than enough passing power, even on the truck heavy and hilly Route 46, the 50 miles stretch of two-lane that connects Interstate 5 with California Highway 101.

I chose the right car for the trip. And I'd choose it again without hesitation.

-Scott Oldham, Editor in Chief

Had a friend in town over the weekend who just bought a two-year old BMW 5 Series. It's his third BMW in a row and he loves it. Given his car owning history, I was curious what he might think of our Genesis since it's pretty close in price, size and performance to his 528i.

His initial reaction was pretty standard. He said, "Looks pretty good, better than I would have expected from a Hyundai." As we drove around L.A. he started to notice some of the Hyundai's smaller details like the iPod interface, the LED interior lights and how quiet it is on the highway. "Hmm...this thing really is nice. Feels like it's built solid too."

At one point, I let him drive for a bit to get the final word. "Wow, this has way more power than my BMW. Rides a little too soft, but my wife would probably love it. I'm pretty surprised though, it's really a much better car than I would have ever imagined."

-Ed Hellwig, Senior Editor

Then, there's the chassis tuning. This Genesis feels a lot more sophisticated than the Azera ever did. I notice it accelerating out of a long, sweeping entrance ramp. Body motion is well controlled, and the steering, although not especially communicative, is very precise.

Later in the weekend, I notice that I'm having an easy time parking the car. And I think it's the accurate steering combined with a good driving position that makes it easy to get a feel for the car's perimeter.

Back on the freeway, the ride remains soft and forgiving, but the choppiness you sometimes get in the Azera over rain-grooved sections and seams in the concrete has been banished. The Genesis just rides well -- wherever it is.

-Erin Riches, Senior Editor

the leather seats are great (really!), the ride is super comfortable, the handling plenty sufficient for my gotta-get-there-now maneuvering. The thin, chrome trim around the vents is a nice touch and the paint is, well, sparkly.

-Joanne Helperin

The ride in particular is quite Lexus-like: super smooth and a bit cushy. Although the ride is flat, well-controlled, and slightly sporty, the Genesis can get a bit floaty over sinusoidal whoops. And while the Genesis has better impact isolation and attenuation than the GS, the overall suspension feeling is somewhat soft -- like a Lexus.

-Albert Austria

The Genesis allows significantly less road noise into its cabin -- indeed, it's one of the quietest cars we can remember testing -- and its cosseting suspension is a sponge for bumps that upset the firmer CTS's composure.


-Josh Sadlier

Autoblog

Compared to its German rivals (both sporting MacPherson suspension designs in the front and multi-link in the rear), the Genesis matches Lexus with a multi-link set-up fore and aft. Like its Lexus competition, the ride of the new Hyundai is soft and very comfortable. Thanks to an impressively stiff chassis (more rigid than the 5 Series, E-Class, and LS 430) and lightweight aluminum suspension components, it takes bumps and potholes in stride.


Motive Mag

The most surprising thing about the Hyundai's suspension is that it's actually been stiffened significantly beyond the Korean market car's. But it is still much softer than the Benz, and biases the car toward cruising. It exhibits a level of insulation that'll appeal more to traditional luxury buyers than those expecting extreme road-carving performance.

Two factors in particular contribute to the Benz's comparative athleticism: a 3885-lb curb weight that undercuts the Genesis by 120 pounds, and an Airmatic suspension that allows the driver to pick between three levels of pavement stomping. Even on the softest setting, the Mercedes still feels more aggressive than the Genesis. The two cars are almost dynamic opposites — in the Benz, every road irregularity, every crumbled bit of rock dropped from a cliff is transmitted to the driver. The Hyundai erases those small details completely, but when it comes to sweeps in the road and off-camber corners, the multi-link front and rear suspension can't quite keep up. The chassis is slow to respond to driver inputs and there's too much travel on rebound. Overall, it falls in somewhere between a non-sport package Mercedes and a Lexus GS.

 

[Mark_888]

Again, you are confusing "ride" with suspension control on rough roads. No one denies that the 2009 suspension is quite nice on a smooth road, and as I mentioned above it is "softer" than BMW and Infiniti M. But while it is softer than these two cars, the 2009 Genesis does not have the same level of suspension control over rough roads, as clearly documented in the Car and Driver video review.

Some of the comments above about a "floating" ride refer to lack of precise steering/tracking, not suspension control on rough roads. Hyundai claimed that they made steering improvements in the 2010 model, but that is a separate issue from the suspension.

We also do not know whether these reviews included any tests over less-than-perfect roads. That could account for the difference in opinion by different members of the same organization. The Car and Driver video review described evaluations done at a test facility where one can experience less-than-perfect roads, and one can repeat the same exact tests with other cars to form a basis of consistency and objectivity.

Also, you have not documented whether the review quotes you included refer to the original 2009 model, the suspension revised during mid-year 2009, or the 2010 model.

Finally, riddle me this Batman: if the original 2009 suspension is so great, why did Hyundai decide to change it mid-year 2009, and then change it further in 2010?

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[Mark_888]

^^^ I'm with you there, Mark. I wouldn't call the '09 Genesis' suspension perfect, so I guess there was room for improvement. Perfection is difficult to come by (even with regard to "settledness" vs. "unsettledness"), though I do appreciate your distinction between ride stiffness and the car's unsettledness.

I'm still not sure that the complaints are wholly justified (the Genesis costs less $$$ than the cars specifically listed in your above post, and arguably wasn't designed to be a sophisticated ride on NYC streets), but it isn't as though these issues are isolated to a couple of people in a vacuum, that is true.

I'm not as emotionally involved in this one way or another as it may appear, so that's all I'll say on the subject.

I don't think that the suspension issues are necessarily related to the price of the car (which on balance is an incredible bargain). I think it was just some poor/sloppy engineering in the US (where they came up with the North American suspension changes compared to the much different Korean market version).

The suspension tuning for the NA version was done at the Hyundai facility in the Southern California desert (there is actually a video on You Tube where Hyundai describes the process and shows the guy in charge of the suspension tuning). One of the things that may have contributed to the problem is that the springs are apparently sensitive to temperature changes. So testing in the desert may not have been a good idea.

Also, the springs tend to soften over time (mine are a little better then when the car was new), and they may not have realized that when doing the tuning on a car with a lot of mileage.

As far as I can tell, everything on the Genesis that was designed in Korea is exceptionally good.

 

[DanTheMan]

This is not even debatable- If Hyundai does not do the right thing for the early buyers and fix the suspension issue they will have very little chance of these folks becoming repeat customers.

I would challenge (professionally, of course) that comment. I'm on my 2nd Hyundai (the first being a 2007 Azera Ltd.) and now a '09 Genesis, V6 P+ pkg., and if I continue to have the good fortune I've had with both of these cars, I'll be a proud owner of a 3rd Hyundai...but it will be quite some time down the road. I have a habit of driving a car until nearly 300K miles have been put on it...and I only have about 36K miles now--I've got a long way to go! I've owned Genesis since 8/08--love the car, love the ride, and I really loved the value. (I should note that the Azera didn't make it to 300K miles--it was hit by someone while I slept...so I got it fixed..and traded the following day after I picked it up. And we all know what I traded it on)!

I don't really see any useful (in the financial eyes--or any other, for that matter) benefit to Hyundai to make the effort for all the engineering changes to a car that they are no longer going to build (an '09 model--they will of course continue to build '10s and beyond). While I don't know how many are unhappy enough w/the suspension to invest in a change of some kind, I could only assume the cost would be significant--and contribute to higher overhead on Hyundai's part. Plus, the outcome could leave some customers wishing they hadn't changed, or had made other changes, etc. In short, people, given too many choices, are never really happy! (Well, not "never", but I think you know what I mean). I could see that process going down the long and winding road leading no where.

Dan

 

[Mark_888]

I don't really see any useful (in the financial eyes--or any other, for that matter) benefit to Hyundai to make the effort for all the engineering changes to a car that they are no longer going to build (an '09 model--they will of course continue to build '10s and beyond). While I don't know how many are unhappy enough w/the suspension to invest in a change of some kind, I could only assume the cost would be significant--and contribute to higher overhead on Hyundai's part. Plus, the outcome could leave some customers wishing they hadn't changed, or had made other changes, etc. In short, people, given too many choices, are never really happy! (Well, not "never", but I think you know what I mean). I could see that process going down the long and winding road leading no where.

Dan

I have no idea what you are talking about when you mention higher overhead for improving the 2009 suspensions for those who want it. Hyundai changed out the shocks and springs for 2010 (supposedly just only changed some of the shocks mid-year 2009). The parts are only slightly different, and are completely interchangeable between model years.

At this time the official Hyundai position is that they will not provide dealers with exact information on how to upgrade a 2009 Genesis suspension to a 2010 for customers who are willing to pay for it themselves, nor will Hyundai provide a warranty on such changes. Someone mentioned in another thread that Honda has become arrogant and cyclical towards their customers, but this policy of Hyundai is beyond arrogance IMO.

 

[sandy]

At this time the official Hyundai position is that they will not provide dealers with exact information on how to upgrade a 2009 Genesis suspension to a 2010 for customers who are willing to pay for it themselves, nor will Hyundai provide a warranty on such changes. Someone mentioned in another thread that Honda has become arrogant and cyclical towards their customers, but this policy of Hyundai is beyond arrogance IMO.[/QUOTE]


Where did you see this official position?

 

[Sayantsi]

Probably because there is no change. Afaik no one has any proof of any changes, no one has compared any parts, etc - just a bunch of hearsay, and grasping at straws.

 

[Sayantsi]

Guys - this is not hard to understand. The simple truth is that SOME (NOT ALL) of the 2009 models (assembled in a certain period in 2008) had shocks, struts, springs - whatever - that produced very poor (and in some cases extreme) ride characteristics. At sime point Hyundai made a running change to the 2009s and carried these over to 2010 models. These changes mostly resulted in the desired ride characteristics. Even with these changes the car could be described as a bit jittery if you have bad roads - but it is noticeably better especially if you had an extreme experience as I did. Sorry, but unless, you've had one of the 2009 models with the poor ride characteristics you just can't really understand the issue and you really should not keep trying to tell others that it is all in their head - it is not. Some are still trying to solve the problem and Hyundai should help them - just as the manufacturer of any other product would hopefully try to do. I do agree - few of the car companies are any better in their approach. However, my numerous experiences with Hyundai denial and attempts to evade the warranty have been the worst so far.

Lots of conjecture, but as time moves on, surprisingly little proof. People are looking for anything to justify their opinions, which is sound behavior for either argument, but at this point its conspiracy theory we're talking about.

Bottom line, if you really didn't like the way the car rides, you'd sell it and move on, or take maters into your own hands and just buy a custom suspension. I can't believe anyone who is really unhappy would keep such a car.

 

[Mark_888]

At this time the official Hyundai position is that they will not provide dealers with exact information on how to upgrade a 2009 Genesis suspension to a 2010 for customers who are willing to pay for it themselves, nor will Hyundai provide a warranty on such changes. Someone mentioned in another thread that Honda has become arrogant and cyclical towards their customers, but this policy of Hyundai is beyond arrogance IMO.

Where did you see this official position?

One of the members (not me) contacted HMA and got the above reply. The exact response from HMA was posted on this forum months ago.

 

[Mark_888]

Probably because there is no change. Afaik no one has any proof of any changes, no one has compared any parts, etc - just a bunch of hearsay, and grasping at straws.

1. HMA posted information about improved suspension (and improved steering) for the 2010 model on their website (but pulled it when dealers started complaining that it hurt 2009 sales). The exact claim from the Hyundai media site website was copied and pasted into this forum and witnessed by quite few people before Hyundai pulled it.

2. On the Hyundai Think Tank website, HMA_Heather posted that the shock and spring rates have been changed for 2010. She is listed (with bio) on a page showing all the HMA employees who participate in the forum (this cannot be faked or hacked). Here is her post on page 7 of the "Genesis Owners: General Discussion Board" (I am sure someone will have this expunged like was the case in 1 above on the Hyundai media site webpage):

HMA_Heather
July 23, 2009 06:02 PM EDT

Hello! Hope this answers your questions.

For the 2010 Genesis sedan, the additional features and revisions from the 2009 model are:

• Standard integrated Bluetooth that works with the car audio system
• Re-tuned suspension on the 3.8 V6 and the 4.6 V8; Changed bushings, spring rates, shocks
• Smart (adaptive) cruise control and electronic parking brake with automatic vehicle hold included with the Technology package for the 3.8 and 4.6
• Touch-screen navigation available on 3.8 and standard on base 4.6

3. Genesis45 replaced his 2009 shocks and springs with different part numbers from the 2010 parts catalog and said his suspension is now improved. All the details were posted in this forum.

There are many other examples too numerous to document.

 

[GripperDon]

Probably because there is no change. Afaik no one has any proof of any changes, no one has compared any parts, etc - just a bunch of hearsay, and grasping at straws.

I have compared the parts and posted the new part numbers. The information has been on the forum for a good while and I posted 12 steps to making the ride softer. Can't understand your post.

 

[GripperDon]

SAYANTSI !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is the post copied from another thread.

"..... all the new part numbers are the old part numbers except that the hyphenated extension has been changed from -00 to -01.

A shame that Hyundai would not make this info available, also the change out time was short less than 30min per corner after it on the lift. If you only do the rear a new alignment is probably not necessary. However changing the struts would suggest a new alignment is required. If getting a new alignment consider a tad bit more toe in to reduce the Gennis tendenancy to wander and be so crown sensitive.

So if you want it softer:
1. Reduce the rim diameter 1 inch.
2. Replace the tires with Serenities or Comfort treads.
3. Change to 60 series tires.
4. Strongly consider a 225 or more width. Increases side wall height (remember spedo error) and fender well clearance.
5. Reduce the tire pressure with the new tires to 29/30
6. Install new suspension parts cited above.
7. Take a test drive.
8. Want still softer? look a anti swar bar adjustment of bushing.
9. Consider small diameter anti sway bar.
10. Still softer: Replace shock set in rear with a set that fits for: stroke, size etc but that is softer, take dimension to suspension shop or go on line and find a set.
11. Still softer, Wait for new after market springs, Be armed with coil diameter, number of active coils, Coil wire diameter, Material and take a picture of your old springs from above, Place a board on spring and set of weight or large drum and slowly fill with water to get spring rate. Water @ 8 pounds per gallon or 62.4 pounds per cu. ft. and calculate a deflection per pound graph. Good luck finding the right spring. Remember you want a longer initial free length so that car will ride at same height when the softer spring is loaded.
12. Then go live with it. "