New Luxury SUV's from Rolls Royce and Aston Martin

[joneillnj]

What difference does it make how long it takes?

It matters as Genesis Motors did not even exist in 2013-2014...

Everyone else seems to have done the proper planning.

Of course, you conveniently gloss over the fact that everyone else existed as standalone brands/companies for many years... Genesis was not even annnounced as a standalone brand until November 4, 2015? Who knows what resources were actually in place to really develop broad, actionable plans and procure required funding/resources before that? Do you know?

We live in a competitive world, and there are no excuses for finishing last. If the same people are in charge as before, I assume they will be making the wrong decisions now that will affect them four years from now.

You seem to assume a lot of things without any direct knowledge or inside information. Of course, if it makes you feel better/validates you, continue with your constant complaining of how screwed up Genesis is as I'm sure that will fix everything. lol.

 

[EdP]

What difference does it make how long it takes? Everyone else seems to have done the proper planning.

What would you do different? What resources are available? How many engineers do you need and how many can you get? What projects would you delay to move up the SUV for an earlier introduction?

 

[Mcc]

What difference does it make how long it takes? Everyone else seems to have done the proper planning.

We live in a competitive world, and there are no excuses for finishing last. If the same people are in charge as before, I assume they will be making the wrong decisions now that will affect them four years from now.

So are the same people who should have made the decision in 2013-2014 still in charge now? I sincerely doubt it. There was not even a Genesis that was separate from Hyundai then. So are you saying they should have foreseen that Genesis was going to spin off and have separate design requirement four years ago?

So it makes a great deal of difference how long it takes. You can only craft your strategy so far in advance and expect it to be relevant today. Times change, circumstances change, opportunities come along that were unseen four or more years ago. When Genesis spun off in 2016 it kind of reset the clock and they had to go with what their strengths were at that time while still staying true to their new image. Evidently the G70 was easier to get into production than a totally new SUV. As someone pointed out in a leaked document in 2016 the SUV was on the board in 2016 and project for 2019/2020. So it’s no like they totally forgot about it. It just takes time and the Genesis is still young.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

In my personal opinion, I feel that there was a lot of debate as to whether Genesis Motors should exist as a separate brand - and that a rear wheel drive or all wheel drive CUV was not on the table, at all, until a firm decision was made on that. This would mean that getting started on a proper non-Hyundai luxury CUV would have started long after any of the new competitor's started on theirs...

 

[Mcc]

In my personal opinion, I feel that there was a lot of debate as to whether Genesis Motors should exist as a separate brand - and that a rear wheel drive or all wheel drive CUV was not on the table, at all, until a firm decision was made on that. This would mean that getting started on a proper non-Hyundai luxury CUV would have started long after any of the new competitor's started on theirs...

I certainly agree that is reasonable conclusion.

 

[Mark_888]

In my personal opinion, I feel that there was a lot of debate as to whether Genesis Motors should exist as a separate brand - and that a rear wheel drive or all wheel drive CUV was not on the table, at all, until a firm decision was made on that. This would mean that getting started on a proper non-Hyundai luxury CUV would have started long after any of the new competitor's started on theirs...

There wasn't any delay in deciding to create the Hyundai Genesis RWD, Hyundai Equus RWD, and even the G70 RWD, well before there was a separate brand in the USA for Genesis. Beyond that, someone obviously thought that the G70 was more important than a SUV.

 

[Mark_888]

I certainly agree that is reasonable conclusion.

Sounds like speculation on your part.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

There wasn't any delay in deciding to create the Hyundai Genesis RWD, Hyundai Equus RWD, and even the G70 RWD, well before there was a separate brand in the USA for Genesis. Beyond that, someone obviously thought that the G70 was more important than a SUV.

I do feel the G70 before a CUV was a mistake. I think Kia launching the Stinger so quickly had something to do with that. I think there were a lot of executives at Hyundai who felt there would be no need for a RWD or AWD CUV if there wasn't going to be a separate brand. The thing is - it's much more important in the luxury world for sedans (mainly mid sized and full sized) to be non-front wheel drive. Most people buying CUVs aren't all that interested in which wheels power the car. But when it comes to cars like the E-Class, S-Class, 5-Series, 7-Series - people really expect those to be RWD...

 

[Mcc]

Sounds like speculation on your part.

Speculation that I agree? I know you are just kidding

 

[Mcc]

I do feel the G70 before a CUV was a mistake. I think Kia launching the Stinger so quickly had something to do with that. I think there were a lot of executives at Hyundai who felt there would be no need for a RWD or AWD CUV if there wasn't going to be a separate brand. The thing is - it's much more important in the luxury world for sedans (mainly mid sized and full sized) to be non-front wheel drive. Most people buying CUVs aren't all that interested in which wheels power the car. But when it comes to cars like the E-Class, S-Class, 5-Series, 7-Series - people really expect those to be RWD...

I don't think Genesis had much choice about the order, it is either the G70 or nothing for a lot longer time, That would have really deadened the brand

Here is what the Genesis says in 2017 and may give us some insight into their thinking:
Autoweek: What does the G70 do for you as a product and in the strategic sense?
Raphael: The (compact) segment brings in, first, more volume because it's significantly larger than those for the G80 and G90. It’s a direct path to brand awareness because it puts more cars on the road. When I go to dinner or whatever and the valet parks the car, they’re starting to go from, “What is this?" to, "I like this,” and the G70 can get a lot more doing that.
It will also expand the demographics a bit. We’ll see a younger demographic coming to the brand, and we also think it will shift toward females. It won't be predominantly female, but it will be more. The G90, for example, tends to be a mature man’s car. The S-Class, 72, male -- that's what that tends to be.
So we'll get a new group of people -- and women, who are incredibly influential in buying cars, and that will be good for us. Finally, it can shift the settings toward performance. The G80 Sport handles well, but this car is even more energizing. It’s zippy and more fun to drive, and I think it's going to bring a different perspective and start rounding out the brand.

Autoweek: You don’t have crossovers or SUVs to sell, which takes you out of about half the luxury market, nor the hybrid/battery cars your competitors are rolling out from top to bottom. How much more difficult does that make your job?
Raphael: I don't think it makes my job any more difficult. If my success were measured purely by volume, then it might be a bigger problem, but my first assignment is building, establishing, a brand. In the meantime, people are still buying cars every day -- frankly, about 8 million this year -- as opposed to CUVs and trucks. In that sense, we just want to get our fair share of the segments we're in. The (G70 sedan’s) segment is still the largest in the luxury class.
Eventually, we have to do CUVs, SUVs, and that's going to be the next product after this one. We'll start there, and we've got more than one in mind. That would be 2020 and ’21 (bold here is mine). By then, we’ll have a facelifted G90 and an all-new G80 with electrification. Based on our product cadence, which is roughly speaking one new product year for the next three, we should be presenting a car/truck mix that looks like the market. We expect to be there.

Read more: 5 questions for the boss at Genesis

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[Mark_888]

Speculation that I agree? I know you are just kidding

You said it was a reasonable conclusion. I think it is speculation.

The conclusion may or may not be correct, but there are other conclusions one could reasonably reach with the same evidence.

 

[Mark_888]

I don't think Genesis had much choice about the order, it is either the G70 or nothing for a lot longer time, That would have really deadened the brand

I think they absolutely had a choice, but they made the wrong choice several years ago.

Of course Raphael is saying that the G70 and other Genesis car upgrades are more important than SUV's, because they (or maybe he) chose to postpone the SUV's in favor of cars. What did you expect him to say? Did you expect him to say that Genesis Motors (and himself) really screwed up and he should be fired by his management for his stupid decisions?

Also, they could have done both the cars and the SUV(s). There is no law against that.

Just read the that interview again, especially the part that says that SUV's are now at least 50% of the luxury market.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

I don't think Genesis had much choice about the order, it is either the G70 or nothing for a lot longer time, That would have really deadened the brand

Here is what the Genesis says in 2017 and may give us some insight into their thinking:
Autoweek: What does the G70 do for you as a product and in the strategic sense?
Raphael: The (compact) segment brings in, first, more volume because it's significantly larger than those for the G80 and G90. It’s a direct path to brand awareness because it puts more cars on the road. When I go to dinner or whatever and the valet parks the car, they’re starting to go from, “What is this?" to, "I like this,” and the G70 can get a lot more doing that.
It will also expand the demographics a bit. We’ll see a younger demographic coming to the brand, and we also think it will shift toward females. It won't be predominantly female, but it will be more. The G90, for example, tends to be a mature man’s car. The S-Class, 72, male -- that's what that tends to be.
So we'll get a new group of people -- and women, who are incredibly influential in buying cars, and that will be good for us. Finally, it can shift the settings toward performance. The G80 Sport handles well, but this car is even more energizing. It’s zippy and more fun to drive, and I think it's going to bring a different perspective and start rounding out the brand.

Autoweek: You don’t have crossovers or SUVs to sell, which takes you out of about half the luxury market, nor the hybrid/battery cars your competitors are rolling out from top to bottom. How much more difficult does that make your job?
Raphael: I don't think it makes my job any more difficult. If my success were measured purely by volume, then it might be a bigger problem, but my first assignment is building, establishing, a brand. In the meantime, people are still buying cars every day -- frankly, about 8 million this year -- as opposed to CUVs and trucks. In that sense, we just want to get our fair share of the segments we're in. The (G70 sedan’s) segment is still the largest in the luxury class.
Eventually, we have to do CUVs, SUVs, and that's going to be the next product after this one. We'll start there, and we've got more than one in mind. That would be 2020 and ’21 (bold here is mine). By then, we’ll have a facelifted G90 and an all-new G80 with electrification. Based on our product cadence, which is roughly speaking one new product year for the next three, we should be presenting a car/truck mix that looks like the market. We expect to be there.

Read more: 5 questions for the boss at Genesis

Mid-size sedans don't sell well anymore - so I think the G70 was a good move. Especially considering that even when mid-size sedans DID sell well, the smaller, less-expensive cars sold more - naturally. So they definitely needed something for G70 type buyers. But I do think a small CUV would have been a better move, first...

 

[EdP]

Mid-size sedans don't sell well anymore - so I think the G70 was a good move. Especially considering that even when mid-size sedans DID sell well, the smaller, less-expensive cars sold more - naturally. So they definitely needed something for G70 type buyers. But I do think a small CUV would have been a better move, first...

What we don't know though, is when and why the decision was made. At the time, probably 5 or 6 years ago, it seemed to be the right one. Once the G70 hits the US market it will be easier to tell.

 

[Mcc]

You said it was a reasonable conclusion. I think it is speculation.

The conclusion may or may not be correct, but there are other conclusions one could reasonably reach with the same evidence.

I agree there could be other conclusions. I just said it was “a” conclusion. Not the “only” one. I can accept that there may be others. If you want to call it speculation, that’s ok too. See how easy that is to say.

 

[joneillnj]

You said it was a reasonable conclusion. I think it is speculation.

The conclusion may or may not be correct, but there are other conclusions one could reasonably reach with the same evidence.

Geez - he did not comment on the accuarcy of the conclusion nor did he say there were not other possible conclusions - he merely agreed that that someome's stated personal opinion was reasonable. Since, to the best of my knowledge, no one here is a Genesis Motors Executive, then EVERYTHING in thesse threads (including your pessimistic views) is speculation!

 

[Mcc]

So they definitely needed something for G70 type buyers. But I do think a small CUV would have been a better move, first...

The question in my mind is NOT which should have been first. My question to you is do you think it would be better to have waited the few years more it would take without producing ANY new product while waiting for a SUV/CUV to be released first, before the G70.

 

[joneillnj]

The question in my mind is NOT which should have been first. My question to you is do you think it would be better to have waited the few years more it would take without producing ANY new product while waiting for a SUV/CUV to be released first, before the G70.

No way - that would have created an even bigger problem for them!

 

[Sal Collaziano]

The question in my mind is NOT which should have been first. My question to you is do you think it would be better to have waited the few years more it would take without producing ANY new product while waiting for a SUV/CUV to be released first, before the G70.

It was definitely better to get the G70 on the streets rather than wait until after the CUVs were ready. The G70 will be the brand's best seller until the CUVs are available. It's a no brainer to make the small luxury car available now.

 

[Mark_888]

Geez - he did not comment on the accuarcy of the conclusion nor did he say there were not other possible conclusions - he merely agreed that that someome's stated personal opinion was reasonable. Since, to the best of my knowledge, no one here is a Genesis Motors Executive, then EVERYTHING in thesse threads (including your pessimistic views) is speculation!

Normally, I would not have posted that regarding anyone else but Mcc. That is because he has previously claimed that almost everything I post is speculation (even when it was not), so I was just returning the favor.

But I can see how you might think I was going overboard, since as you say, almost everything posted on this forum involves some degree of speculation. That speculation would not be cured by knowing what Genesis Motors executives have to say about this, because they most likely are making ridiculous excuses (or in some cases outright lying) to keep their jobs in the face of the Genesis USA rollout fiasco, and the lack of SUVs.