Nitrogen in Tires

[RTD]

I am in Houston and it seems that the Genesis service centers are discontinuing the use of nitrogen when servicing cars....and not informing their customers! I seem to recall an extra line item on the purchase that was for 'nitrogen'. This does not sit right that you pay extra up front but it cannot be serviced going forward.
It has been my experience - espeically in very hot or very cold climates- that there is a significant difference between regular compressed air and nitrogen. Any one else hearing of 'no more nitrogen' at dealers? That said Costco will fill your tires for $11.99 - score!

 

[EdP]

I am in Houston and it seems that the Genesis service centers are discontinuing the use of nitrogen when servicing cars....and not informing their customers! I seem to recall an extra line item on the purchase that was for 'nitrogen'. This does not sit right that you pay extra up front but it cannot be serviced going forward.
It has been my experience - espeically in very hot or very cold climates- that there is a significant difference between regular compressed air and nitrogen. Any one else hearing of 'no more nitrogen' at dealers? That said Costco will fill your tires for $11.99 - score!

There are a couple of threads here about nitrogen.
I use a special blend of gasses and have great results

78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, and 0.9% argon, with trace amounts of other gases like carbon dioxide, neon, and helium making up the remaining percentage

What do you see with nitrogen that the rest of us do not?
It makes no sense unless you are flying aircraft with the temperature and pressure differences. Seems the dealers are not willing to invest the the equipment for a mostly perceived benefit.
Glad you found a source to fill up.

 

[steveinarizona]

That said Costco will fill your tires for $11.99 - score!

My Costco has moved the nitrogen tire filling area to the passenger parking area. There is nothing that prevents you from filling with nitrogen at that location. Perhaps what Costco is charging for is emptying the tires so the only fill would be nitrogen. I don't know if there is a way for a user to remove all the air from the tires so simply using the fill plug will leave the tire with some regular air.

From what I understand, the advantage of nitrogen is that the molecule is larger so there is less leaking of tire fill. But Consumer Reports concluded that the benefit is not meaningful:

"based on our experience with passenger cars and these test results, consumers would be better served—and would save their money—by just using air in their tires and checking them monthly.

There is nothing wrong with using nitrogen in passenger cars and trucks, but it does take commitment and potentially cost. Nitrogen users should be diligent about topping off only with nitrogen to ensure they are getting the intended benefits."

 

[Mcc]

I seem to recall an extra line item on the purchase that was for 'nitrogen'.

All this about something you “seem to remember”?
Is that something you paid extra for? You must have a copy of purchase contract.

Based on the facts regarding the (non)benefits of nitrogen in passenger car tires, this sounds like a tempest in a teapot.

 

[AnClar52]

For regular passenger vehicle tires, the major benefit I can see from nitrogen used to pressurize tires is to the dealers who sell it to customers at ridiculous prices. It greatly increases their bottom line. I’ve used what EdP has used for decades, and it does the job…at considerably less cost than what many dealers charge.

 

[joegr]

... I’ve used what EdP has used for decades, and it does the job…at considerably less cost than what many dealers charge.

For me, using Ed's mixture also has the advantage that it comes from a hose reel suspended from the ceiling of my garage that is very convenient to use now and then to top off the tires.

 

[Alfer]

Just my experience..YMMV.

When I had my 15 Genesis I had set of tires that were filled with air from the usual gas station fillers. Every season I had to constantly adjust the pressure, especially in the winter seasons. Fast forward to the day I bought new tires and the shop I used filled the tires with Nitrogen as part of the package deal. Almost the whole time I had that set of tires, I rarely had to fiddle with the tire pressure. Winters stayed pretty close to original pressure I had set during the summer. Maybe twice a year I'd top off a little bit when I'd rotate tires. But that was it. Not near as much as with "regular air".

Just my observation.

 

[SirJangle]

Just my experience..YMMV.

When I had my 15 Genesis I had set of tires that were filled with air from the usual gas station fillers. Every season I had to constantly adjust the pressure, especially in the winter seasons. Fast forward to the day I bought new tires and the shop I used filled the tires with Nitrogen as part of the package deal. Almost the whole time I had that set of tires, I rarely had to fiddle with the tire pressure. Winters stayed pretty close to original pressure I had set during the summer. Maybe twice a year I'd top off a little bit when I'd rotate tires. But that was it. Not near as much as with "regular air".

Just my observation.

Same here. I had nitrogen in a couple sports cars that I had in the past. Never had to mess with tire pressure.

 

[EdP]

Just my experience..YMMV.

When I had my 15 Genesis I had set of tires that were filled with air from the usual gas station fillers. Every season I had to constantly adjust the pressure, especially in the winter seasons. Fast forward to the day I bought new tires and the shop I used filled the tires with Nitrogen as part of the package deal. Almost the whole time I had that set of tires, I rarely had to fiddle with the tire pressure. Winters stayed pretty close to original pressure I had set during the summer. Maybe twice a year I'd top off a little bit when I'd rotate tires. But that was it. Not near as much as with "regular air".

Just my observation.

Hard to say as the tires themselves were different. My present car is 16 months old. Added air to all four tires once, topped off two another time. Did it at home, no extra charge. Did not have to find a nitrogen station.

 

[dhuhtala]

It is +35C (95F) in the summer here and -40C (-40F) in the winter - nitrogen does not keep the pressure at these temperatures! So I don't bother...just regular air - and I can use the compressor I keep in my car.

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[Husky]

Nitrogen is a gas (obvi) and as such, it follows the Ideal Gas Law, PV=nRT. This fundamental law states that there is a direct, linear relationship between temperature and the pressure of a contained gas.

 

[EdP]

Nitrogen is a gas (obvi) and as such, it follows the Ideal Gas Law, PV=nRT. This fundamental law states that there is a direct, linear relationship between temperature and the pressure of a contained gas.

Taking the next step:
When using the ideal gas law (PV = nRT) to calculate the behavior of nitrogen (N2) and oxygen (O2) under the same conditions, the key difference lies in their molar masses, meaning that for the same volume and temperature, a given quantity of nitrogen will have a slightly lower mass than oxygen, as nitrogen has a lower molar mass (28 g/mol) compared to oxygen (32 g/mol)


How does that apply to the pressure of our tires?

 

[Husky]

Way to go Ed! Impressive. I haven't heard a discussion of molar mass since my days in Chemistry class at Purdue, nearly 50 years ago. I was an EE major, and chemistry was my least favorite class (maybe that had something to do with an 8 AM, three hour chem lab on Sat morning!)

It sounds like you're better qualified to answer that question than I am (the result of too much partying on Friday nights before chem lab)

It has no effect on the pressure (due to gas law) in an ideal container, but the larger molecule size (higher molar mass) does reduce the amount of leakage through a tire. Good thing only 22% of air isn't already nitrogen, as you've pointed out. Based on molar mass and % of N2 in air, my rough calculation/guess is that pure nitrogen would be about 3% better than regular air in maintaining a tire's pressure.

Bueller????

 

[steveinarizona]

Way to go Ed! Impressive. I haven't heard a discussion of molar mass since my days in Chemistry class at Purdue, nearly 50 years ago. I was an EE major, and chemistry was my least favorite class (maybe that had something to do with an 8 AM, three hour chem lab on Sat morning!)

It sounds like you're better qualified to answer that question than I am (the result of too much partying on Friday nights before chem lab)

It has no effect on the pressure (due to gas law) in an ideal container, but the larger molecule size (higher molar mass) does reduce the amount of leakage through a tire. Good thing only 22% of air isn't already nitrogen, as you've pointed out. Based on molar mass and % of N2 in air, my rough calculation/guess is that pure nitrogen would be about 3% better than regular air in maintaining a tire's pressure.

Bueller????

Which all leads back to CRs essential view: the change is too minimal for most people to care. The small percentage of users for whom it matters should go for it. If they live near a Costco it is very easy to top off there and still stay on nitrogen.

 

[Alfer]

For me I can get free nitrogen from the Costco I visit now and then and they have nice higher tech tire devices than the gas stations do. So it's really not an issue for me if I ever need a top off.

 

[RTD]

All this about something you “seem to remember”?
Is that something you paid extra for? You must have a copy of purchase contract.

Based on the facts regarding the (non)benefits of nitrogen in passenger car tires, this sounds like a tempest in a teapot.

Yes- looked it up. The dealer charged $150. This thread has provided great feedback and I appreciate the education- thanks.

 

[RTD]

My Costco has moved the nitrogen tire filling area to the passenger parking area. There is nothing that prevents you from filling with nitrogen at that location. Perhaps what Costco is charging for is emptying the tires so the only fill would be nitrogen. I don't know if there is a way for a user to remove all the air from the tires so simply using the fill plug will leave the tire with some regular air.

From what I understand, the advantage of nitrogen is that the molecule is larger so there is less leaking of tire fill. But Consumer Reports concluded that the benefit is not meaningful:

"based on our experience with passenger cars and these test results, consumers would be better served—and would save their money—by just using air in their tires and checking them monthly.

There is nothing wrong with using nitrogen in passenger cars and trucks, but it does take commitment and potentially cost. Nitrogen users should be diligent about topping off only with nitrogen to ensure they are getting the intended benefits."

Thanks Steve....They charged me just for 'emptying' the tires and then refilling. I can now top off myself as needed at their filling area. It had been my experience that I never needed to top-off between service (when the dealer used only nitrogen). When the tires had a mixture of nitrogen and compressed air - I had to top-off. This has been a learning curve and all have provided me with excellent info. Thanks

 

[RTD]

There are a couple of threads here about nitrogen.
I use a special blend of gasses and have great results

78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, and 0.9% argon, with trace amounts of other gases like carbon dioxide, neon, and helium making up the remaining percentage

What do you see with nitrogen that the rest of us do not?
It makes no sense unless you are flying aircraft with the temperature and pressure differences. Seems the dealers are not willing to invest the the equipment for a mostly perceived benefit.
Glad you found a source to fill up.

My experience for what its worth: Have had no need to top-off with nitrogen only in tires. With mixed compressed and nitrogen, loose air faster and need to top-off. Clearly dealers are backing off - so wonderful that there is costco! All good. Thanks for info.