Opinions on ABS performance on ice

[Jimmmmbo!]

So a couple of days ago I was driving my 2012 through the parking area of our shopping center. I came up to a stop sign as I have many times before and it is icy as hell. Normally the ABS would pulse until I reach a complete stop.

Not this time. This time it started pulsing (I was doing about 20mph at the time) and then after about 2 seconds it stopped pulsing and the brake pedal went all the way to the floor.

I've tried duplicating the scenario multiple times and haven't been able to get it to repeat.

So, I know about the whole ABS recall business, and had the brake fluid replaced per the TSB just a couple of months ago.

However, I'm trying to decide if this scenario was actually normal behavior or not. "Normal" being that at some point if the ABS system thinks the car is moving slowly enough it will stop pulsing the brakes and lock them hard. Personally, I think there would be too much driver safety risk to design the system to brake that way, but I wonder what others think.

I personally think there's more to this whole ABS business than just corrosion of internal parts from DOT3 liquid, and this instance is really bugging me ...

Thoughts?

 

[scottdk]

So a couple of days ago I was driving my 2012 through the parking area of our shopping center. I came up to a stop sign as I have many times before and it is icy as hell. Normally the ABS would pulse until I reach a complete stop.

Not this time. This time it started pulsing (I was doing about 20mph at the time) and then after about 2 seconds it stopped pulsing and the brake pedal went all the way to the floor.

I've tried duplicating the scenario multiple times and haven't been able to get it to repeat.

So, I know about the whole ABS recall business, and had the brake fluid replaced per the TSB just a couple of months ago.

However, I'm trying to decide if this scenario was actually normal behavior or not. "Normal" being that at some point if the ABS system thinks the car is moving slowly enough it will stop pulsing the brakes and lock them hard. Personally, I think there would be too much driver safety risk to design the system to brake that way, but I wonder what others think.

I personally think there's more to this whole ABS business than just corrosion of internal parts from DOT3 liquid, and this instance is really bugging me ...

Thoughts?

Jimbo, I can get my Outback to do the exact same behavior as you described, but only when I had my all season tires on. Once I put the winter rubber on, I am not able to replicate no matter how many attempts I try. Although, my experience is from around 10mph.

 

[Mark_888]

So a couple of days ago I was driving my 2012 through the parking area of our shopping center. I came up to a stop sign as I have many times before and it is icy as hell. Normally the ABS would pulse until I reach a complete stop.

Not this time. This time it started pulsing (I was doing about 20mph at the time) and then after about 2 seconds it stopped pulsing and the brake pedal went all the way to the floor.

I've tried duplicating the scenario multiple times and haven't been able to get it to repeat.

So, I know about the whole ABS recall business, and had the brake fluid replaced per the TSB just a couple of months ago.

However, I'm trying to decide if this scenario was actually normal behavior or not. "Normal" being that at some point if the ABS system thinks the car is moving slowly enough it will stop pulsing the brakes and lock them hard. Personally, I think there would be too much driver safety risk to design the system to brake that way, but I wonder what others think.

I personally think there's more to this whole ABS business than just corrosion of internal parts from DOT3 liquid, and this instance is really bugging me ...

Thoughts?

What you have described is consistent with the HECU (ABS system) failure due to corrosion of critical internal valves. However, since you have a 2012 it is less likely that is the case since they replaced the zinc valves before the your car was made. If an ABS unit detects that it cannot stop a vehicle even with pulsating the brakes, it may not do anything since it would be futile, a situation that can occur on ice. But you may want to go to your dealer and have them inspect your HECU.

If you think the brakes are defective, file a complaint here:
https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/index.xhtml

 

[7i bigblock]

So a couple of days ago I was driving my 2012 through the parking area of our shopping center. I came up to a stop sign as I have many times before and it is icy as hell. Normally the ABS would pulse until I reach a complete stop.

Not this time. This time it started pulsing (I was doing about 20mph at the time) and then after about 2 seconds it stopped pulsing and the brake pedal went all the way to the floor.

I've tried duplicating the scenario multiple times and haven't been able to get it to repeat.

So, I know about the whole ABS recall business, and had the brake fluid replaced per the TSB just a couple of months ago.

However, I'm trying to decide if this scenario was actually normal behavior or not. "Normal" being that at some point if the ABS system thinks the car is moving slowly enough it will stop pulsing the brakes and lock them hard. Personally, I think there would be too much driver safety risk to design the system to brake that way, but I wonder what others think.

I personally think there's more to this whole ABS business than just corrosion of internal parts from DOT3 liquid, and this instance is really bugging me ...

Thoughts?

As you and I have seen and felt. Nothing is real good on ice. Maybe tire chains with carbide cross links. Not a thing will replace an experienced driver , though the electronic aids help a lot they are not perfect. I have had the experience you describe a few times, even on almost new cars. Do you have snow tires, if not , it would give you better performance in adverse conditions. Hyundai's cars are fine.Thanks

 

[sandy]

I've never heard of or experienced a brake pedal going all the way to the floor... it would scare the hell out of me. Maybe ABS works that way but certainly something you should check with the dealer about.

 

[Jimmmmbo!]

I have Michelin X-Ice 2 winter shoes on the Genesis. Like you, Scott, I have never experienced this ever with the winter tires on, and I haven't really experienced ice conditions with the all seasons on so I'm not sure if it might be more likely to present itself there.

The only reason I'm reluctant at this point to take it to the dealer for evaluation is because the car's brakes were fully on, at least to some point because it slid to a full stop and didn't just roll to a stop.

Still thinking about it, though ...

 

[Jimmmmbo!]

If you think the brakes are defective, file a complaint here:
https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/index.xhtml

Yeah, I've got that in mind if I intend to pursue this. I know we need to make as big a stink about this to the feds as we can.

 

[Philth]

If the pedal goes to the floor, something is wrong.

Typically, ABS performance is only as good as the tires grip the surface.

 

[7i bigblock]

As you and I have seen and felt. Nothing is real good on ice. Maybe tire chains with carbide cross links. Not a thing will replace an experienced driver , though the electronic aids help a lot they are not perfect. I have had the experience you describe a few times, even on almost new cars. Do you have snow tires, if not , it would give you better performance in adverse conditions. Hyundai's cars are fine.Thanks

Why do people just repeat what I say-- Im trying to help this member. The member with the Snow tires supported what I said. I really like to try and help people. Ive designed snow tires and chains-- hope this member gets the snow tires. Bye

 

[427435]

I don't think the pedal should have gone to the floor-------------something isn't right.

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[Aquineas]

Yeah, I'm in agreement with the others here: that pedal to the floor deal would concern me too.

 

[Jimmmmbo!]

Why do people just repeat what I say-- Im trying to help this member. The member with the Snow tires supported what I said. I really like to try and help people. Ive designed snow tires and chains-- hope this member gets the snow tires. Bye

7i bigblock: I have gotten what you've said, and it's a great answer. Thank you! I agree that, in the end, there's nothing better than something that can really dig into the ice.

The problem with where I live in Minnesota is that the measures you're describing are not allowed by law. It's sucks, trust me, but that's the way it is. I'm sure there is a precarious balance being played between driver safety in icy conditions and road integrity/maintenance. Sorry if I wasn't clear about where I lived that may have misled you. I hope not.

I have Michelin X-Ice 2 winter tires as I mentioned in a subsequent comment. Again, I'm sorry if you missed that. I'm trying to be clear without overwhelming people with info.

 

[veed]

Yeah, I'm in agreement with the others here: that pedal to the floor deal would concern me too.

agree with this and others. to the floor means something failed, whether you stopped or not...

 

[DRS]

Get the car back to dealer. No ABS should even go to the floor and ABS quit in situation like that. This is not a ABS "pre-charge" malfunction either.

 

[CanukV6]

I agree with everybody that the brake pedal should not be going to the floor, but as for the ABS not pulsing, there could be a very simple reason for that. ABS prevents a wheel locking-up by detecting that a wheel is rotating slower than the others. If all four wheels were on ice then its possible that all 4 wheels locked up, in which case the ABS system would assume the vehicle is stopped and it would dis-engage.