Piggy Back Tuning

[tau88]

Hey everyone, i reached out to a buddy working at a local performance shop and told me thye could possibly do a "piggy back tune" to my 4.6 Does anyone have experience with this type of tuning? High probaility of doing more bad to the ecu/engine than good?

 

[brfatal]

There is no piggyback available for these cars. Anything you use is going to be a complete stand alone ECU. I personally prefer to only use shops with experience tuning that specific platform (I would never take my WRX to a shop that has never tuned one) because they know what to expect going in and you're less likely to end up with a blown motor. That being said, tuning these V8s is relatively uncharted territory so we don't really know what kinds of results to expect from doing so. If you decide to take this on, please post your results before and after!

 

[tau88]

There is no piggyback available for these cars. Anything you use is going to be a complete stand alone ECU. I personally prefer to only use shops with experience tuning that specific platform (I would never take my WRX to a shop that has never tuned one) because they know what to expect going in and you're less likely to end up with a blown motor. That being said, tuning these V8s is relatively uncharted territory so we don't really know what kinds of results to expect from doing so. If you decide to take this on, please post your results before and after!

Absolutely will keep any findings posted..they also said they could fabricate a CAI..if that happens I'll post some pics.

 

[Bert Man]

adding a piggy back is something that can be done but is not the optimal way to tune a car. the aem fic could more then likely be used but there are no plug and play harnesses for this car. a custom harness would need to be made from one of aem's universal harness's. a custom harness can usually be made for 250-300$ from a shop or tuner and is not a hard thing to do if you can solder and read the electric service manual for this car. i personally cant build a harness but i have tuned my 04' acura tl that was turbocharged with the aem fic before moving over to a megasquirt standalone.

without adjusting the timing, removing some fuel throughout the power band would add some power. if i remember correctly, there was a dyno sheet of a stock 2012 r-spec and the a/f was was in the 12's under wot. bringing that number into the 13's would definitely add some power (and probably get rid of the black sh*t) that a lot of us get on our bumpers. adding some additional timing would also net some power gains but just make sure that your monitoring knock.

just thinking out loud here....after seeing that dyno sheet, i always wondered why this car had such a conservative tune. a 10.4 compression ratio for the 5.0 is not considered high at all. maybe these motors have a tendency to knock if they dont have an ample supply of fuel

 

[zielritter]

There is no piggyback available for these cars. Anything you use is going to be a complete stand alone ECU. I personally prefer to only use shops with experience tuning that specific platform (I would never take my WRX to a shop that has never tuned one) because they know what to expect going in and you're less likely to end up with a blown motor. That being said, tuning these V8s is relatively uncharted territory so we don't really know what kinds of results to expect from doing so. If you decide to take this on, please post your results before and after!

Well, a piggyback technically doesn't have to be model specific. There was no custom piggyback for my Elantra but that didn't stop me from using a SAFC-II. There were no pin diagrams from Apexi so I had to do my research using my car's tech manual and then set about cutting ECU wires (scary) and splicing in the piggyback. I also had to add an AFR monitor my trims so I wasn't adjusting blindly.

Basically, all this time and effort was to allow me to tune my air-to-fuel ratio to as close to 13 as possible at wide open throttle. This is the "sweet spot" for making max power in NA applications supposedly. My Elantra was pretty quick - with full header back exhaust, intake, plug wires, lightweight wheels, lowered, tune etc. I was able to get under 7 seconds 0-60 and hold my own against GTIs (my benchmark I guess? )

The downside is that a tune like this is only use at WOT. Any partial throttle inputs would've been overridden by the ECU's short term fuel trims. However, in open loop wide open throttle the ECU isn't getting inputs from the O2 sensors to correct fuel amounts.

Moral of the story: There are no simple plug and play piggybacks for the Genesis. Yes, you could probably use something universal but it's going to be a painstaking process that may or may not work/destroy your GDI engine which is already running at a higher compression ratio than the equivalent MPI engine.

 

[brfatal]

Oh I know, but as you know SAFCs are very old tech and incredibly limited in what they can do. They aren't really advanced enough for someone with a Genesis to pay any mind to them, especially when taking into account +'12s with direct injection and the cost of a Genesis motor compared to an Elantra one.

 

[tau88]

All true statements. Just wish there was an easier way to get typical mods for these cars. Exhaust and intake will only satisfy a craving for so long. Maybe once the 15' comes out things will change.

 

[zielritter]

Oh I know, but as you know SAFCs are very old tech and incredibly limited in what they can do. They aren't really advanced enough for someone with a Genesis to pay any mind to them, especially when taking into account +'12s with direct injection and the cost of a Genesis motor compared to an Elantra one.

Yeah and you can't control spark timing with the SAFC, which is where a lot of power can be made. The Beta engine in the Elantra was a workhorse. The basic design had been in use originally by Mitsubishi since the early 90's. I was buying parts made for Tiburons and late model Galants that fit my 2009 Elantra like a glove. Made modding a lot easier and a fun discovery process.

 

[tau88]

Well, a piggyback technically doesn't have to be model specific. There was no custom piggyback for my Elantra but that didn't stop me from using a SAFC-II. There were no pin diagrams from Apexi so I had to do my research using my car's tech manual and then set about cutting ECU wires (scary) and splicing in the piggyback. I also had to add an AFR monitor my trims so I wasn't adjusting blindly.

Basically, all this time and effort was to allow me to tune my air-to-fuel ratio to as close to 13 as possible at wide open throttle. This is the "sweet spot" for making max power in NA applications supposedly. My Elantra was pretty quick - with full header back exhaust, intake, plug wires, lightweight wheels, lowered, tune etc. I was able to get under 7 seconds 0-60 and hold my own against GTIs (my benchmark I guess? )

The downside is that a tune like this is only use at WOT. Any partial throttle inputs would've been overridden by the ECU's short term fuel trims. However, in open loop wide open throttle the ECU isn't getting inputs from the O2 sensors to correct fuel amounts.

Moral of the story: There are no simple plug and play piggybacks for the Genesis. Yes, you could probably use something universal but it's going to be a painstaking process that may or may not work/destroy your GDI engine which is already running at a higher compression ratio than the equivalent MPI engine.

Yessir, i had an 06 Tiburon. good little cars, i drove the snot out of mine and had no issues. Your respond "sparked" another question..for spark plugs and wires, has anyone installed/updated theres on the Gen?

 

[zielritter]

Yessir, i had an 06 Tiburon. good little cars, i drove the snot out of mine and had no issues. Your respond "sparked" another question..for spark plugs and wires, has anyone installed/updated theres on the Gen?

I checked NGK's website briefly at some point. All I saw was an OEM replacement plug and O2 sensors. Honestly don't think there's much if any performance to be had from changing plugs and wires unless yours are broken and/or corroded.

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[scottdk]

Does the GDI engines have plug wires now days? Most modern engines have coil packs including my Genesis.

 

[NSXNEXT]

Does the GDI engines have plug wires now days? Most modern engines have coil packs including my Genesis.

Yeah they're coil packs on the Genesis. They've used them for a long time. My 99 TL has coil packs.

 

[consilius]

Yeah they're coil packs on the Genesis. They've used them for a long time. My 99 TL has coil packs.

Seems like most higher end cars have been using coil packs for a while.

Here are pictures of mine on my last car which was an '04 Volkswagen Phaeton W12 with the 6.0 L engine:

Engine

Upper cover removed

Coil pack

Pic of coil removed

Engine with upper cover removed

Phaeton parked beside a Triumph Spitfire 1500

My genesis now

 

[tau88]

adding a piggy back is something that can be done but is not the optimal way to tune a car. the aem fic could more then likely be used but there are no plug and play harnesses for this car. a custom harness would need to be made from one of aem's universal harness's. a custom harness can usually be made for 250-300$ from a shop or tuner and is not a hard thing to do if you can solder and read the electric service manual for this car. i personally cant build a harness but i have tuned my 04' acura tl that was turbocharged with the aem fic before moving over to a megasquirt standalone.

without adjusting the timing, removing some fuel throughout the power band would add some power. if i remember correctly, there was a dyno sheet of a stock 2012 r-spec and the a/f was was in the 12's under wot. bringing that number into the 13's would definitely add some power (and probably get rid of the black sh*t) that a lot of us get on our bumpers. adding some additional timing would also net some power gains but just make sure that your monitoring knock.

just thinking out loud here....after seeing that dyno sheet, i always wondered why this car had such a conservative tune. a 10.4 compression ratio for the 5.0 is not considered high at all. maybe these motors have a tendency to knock if they dont have an ample supply of fuel

The guy ive been speaking to did confirm that they could do a custom harness to hook up an AEM FIC to the Gen. So far this is all that has been discussed, i will keep everyone updated.

 

[dmitriylm]

The guy ive been speaking to did confirm that they could do a custom harness to hook up an AEM FIC to the Gen. So far this is all that has been discussed, i will keep everyone updated.

Anything ever come of this?