Poor audio system 2023 GV70 3.5 Advanced

[mikeback2]

I have been underwhelmed by the low end response. The subs are located under the front seats and I can't even feel the vibration when placing my hand directly over the grill at high volume. This occurs in many different sources (Sirius, Wireless Android Auto, Wired Android Auto, etc.) The dealer swears they are working properly. Interestingly, there are several tracks that sound pretty good and others that sound like an old transistor radio. My guess is that the crossover setting is incorrect (but that's just a guess). I have never been more disapointed in an upgraded audio system before. I would consider an aftermarket subwoofer but I have less than two years remaining on my lease.

 

[AuditoGenesis]

Interesting...I have Apple, now I'm bummed about my decision to give up on Android.

I checked my phone's EQ setting, it was on 'Late Night' (I don't remember selecting that??) I went to 'OFF' it obviously changed the sound but It still lacks the punch and sweet sound I prefer.

I'm currently Flat on Genesis EQ and using Reference.

Since CarPlay uses the phone's DSP, do you have a recommendation as to which setting to use?

Don't be bummed!!!!
Just change you expectations.
Wired Apple CarPlay is still pretty good.
1) Always use in the In-Car EQ and keep your iPhone EQ to off (not flat).
2) Wired CarPlay is limited to 48khz/24bit (Slightly better than CD Quality which is limited to 16bit) which is still pretty good - but only wired, it would be hard to tell the difference in a car.
3) Apple's nomenclature is part of the problem. CD's mastered today (44khz/16bit maximum format quality), are mostly lossless, because their original recording masters were made at much higher rates: 96khz/24bit, or 192khz/24bit. Some form of compression is used to master a CD. I've posted an audiophile description of why the nomenclature is important and has become a marketing issue versus a vernacular issue.

Loss For Words: Is CD Quality Lossless or Lossy?

In the world of audiophiles, most of us know about this stuff I am about to discuss. But there are more mainstream folks out there in the universe appropriating some audio terminology that may b...

audiophilereview.com

Apple CarPlay is limited to 48khz/24bit when wired because Apple's phone DSP is maxed out at 48kzh/24bit. It's SLIGHTLY better than CD, but likely not noticeable in a car.
The ONLY time Apple is truly lossless is when using AirDrop and only if the receiving device has a DAC (Digital to Analog Convertor) that can support bit-rates higher than 44khz/24bit, which is the maximum bitrate ANY recent iPhone can support (although I believe the hardware is actually capable of much more and Apple is limiting it for some reason).

The biggest issue is vernacular.

 

[AuditoGenesis]

Where did you find this information that CarPlay is highly compressed? Apples documentation states you can use CarPlay to listen to lossless audio.



I agree that wireless CarPlay uses a wifi connection to steam from your phone to the audio device and is limited to CD quality audio (16bit/44.1kHz), but the GV70 does not have a wireless CarPlay option unless a third party box is used. I have not seen where a wired connection using CarPlay is limited to anything other than the audio format. I would also state that in a moving car with the background noise of driving and other traffic that music at 24bit/192kHz is indistinguishable from CD quality. Heck only on the highest of home systems that easily outperform the Lexicon system would I say I cold hear a difference between the two formats. I'd be shocked if the DAC in the Lexicon system and the speakers allow for an audible difference.

Again, I'm not saying wired CarPlay isn't limited, but I haven't seen specs stating it is so I wanted to ask for references so I can read and learn more.

So here's the first issue: the vernacular apple is using is misleading and more marketing.
CarPlay is limited to 48khz/24bit.

Loss For Words: Is CD Quality Lossless or Lossy?

In the world of audiophiles, most of us know about this stuff I am about to discuss. But there are more mainstream folks out there in the universe appropriating some audio terminology that may b...

audiophilereview.com

Apple's definition of lossless = 48/24 (whereas CD = 44/16).
And this is again a nomenclature issue (see article I posted above).
Most, if not all, modern recording masters are done at a minimum of 96/24 or 192/24 giving the label/artist the most flexibility in formats they can provide....
You can never turn a CD which is 44/16 to 96/24 because the bits are just not there to begin with.

About lossless audio in Apple Music - Apple Support

Learn about lossless audio in Apple Music and how to turn it on or off for your device.

support.apple.com

I cannot locate the developer's presentation Apple gave to CarPlay developers at this moment, but it's also confirmed there and where I originally got this information.
Apple does not support USB drive format like android does where the iPhone can just be a storage device.
It SEEMS that if you do not use CarPlay when plugging in the iPhone to the car, it's just not recognized (at least prior to the most recent update).

The funny part is, you can download 192k/24b onto the phone - you just can't listen to anything above 48k/24b via CarPlay no matter what you do, unless the device you connect to has it's own DSP and you are NOT using CarPlay....

Apple's choices are sometimes odd and without logic.

There are many more links you can find to confirm this, but if I can find the original presentation, I will post it....

PS: There are some third party Music Players that claim to get around this limitation and support CarPlay and I have noticed a few that actually display the bitrate on the phone and in the CarPlay app as 96/24 or 192/24, however, I have no way of confirming they are actually showing the format playing, versus the format stored on the phone.... I've reached out to developers with no luck. I have used "Vox" on the App Store and IMHO, has the most reliable CarPlay interface (still some weird glitches), but again - I cannot notice a difference, wired, versus the Apple MusicPlayer in the car.

PSS: Just because the phone outputs PCM, doesn't mean the bitrate being sent is higher than 48/24...
Developers have all the tools and information about the "reality" of what their apps do, and if they can bypass the typical CarPlay limitation, but typical consumers don't....and believe me, I've tried.

My solution has been, and will remain, a USB memory stick which takes all the guesswork out of it.
And playing a REAL lossless audio file through the Lexicon (e.g., 96/24 or 192/24) actually makes a HUGE difference.
I had to change all my EQ settings when I gave up on CarPlay - and even while driving, there is significantly more headroom (highs sound clearer, bass is more punchy).
No car environment is perfect and it's not a controlled environment because of variables like road noise, car speed, etc., but the best source material always provides the best sound regardless of environment (YMMV).

 

[AuditoGenesis]

Update:

Wired or Wireless CarPlay, Which sound is better?

Compare and explain which one has better sound quality based on the different encodings used by wired CarPlay and wireless CarPlay. LPCM encoding for wired connections compared to AAC-LC encoding for wireless connections.

carplaysmartbox.com

 

[deewan]

CarPlay is limited to 48khz/16bit.

Perhaps a difference in tastes, but I do not consider 48/16 to be "highly compressed" audio as you mentioned in your post above.

Loss For Words: Is CD Quality Lossless or Lossy?

In the world of audiophiles, most of us know about this stuff I am about to discuss. But there are more mainstream folks out there in the universe appropriating some audio terminology that may b...

audiophilereview.com

Apple's definition of lossless = 48/16 (whereas CD = 44/16).
And this is again a nomenclature issue (see article I posted above).
Most, if not all, modern recording masters are done at a minimum of 96/24 or 192/24 giving the label/artist the most flexibility in formats they can provide....
You can never turn a CD which is 44/16 to 96/24 because the bits are just not there to begin with.

About lossless audio in Apple Music - Apple Support

Learn about lossless audio in Apple Music and how to turn it on or off for your device.

support.apple.com

I cannot locate the developer's presentation Apple gave to CarPlay developers at this moment, but it's also confirmed there and where I originally got this information.
Apple does not support USB drive format like android does where the iPhone can just be a storage device.
It SEEMS that if you do not use CarPlay when plugging in the iPhone to the car, it's just not recognized (at least prior to the most recent update).

The funny part is, you can download 192k/24b onto the phone - you just can't listen to anything above 48k/16b no matter what you do, unless the device you connect to has it's own DSP and you are NOT using CarPlay....

Apple's choices are sometimes odd and without logic.

There are many more links you can find to confirm this, but if I can find the original presentation, I will post it....

I understand that music is mastered at a much higher rate, and that music files can be downloaded at a much higher level to a music player (USB, phone, etc), I think 99% of the GV70 users likely download their music or stream their music at CD Quality or less. I would also bet a substantial amount of money if the Lexicon system was fed a 48/16 and a 192/24 audio file that the quality of audio from the Lexicon system would remain the same and nobody would be able to hear any audible difference. So really, it's not a CarPlay limitation. I bet the limitation is the Lexicon system if anything.

What needs to happen is people need to understand their audio and how to set up their devices to get the best possible audio, and higher quality audio files above CD quality isn't the answer.

 

[AuditoGenesis]

Perhaps a difference in tastes, but I do not consider 48/16 to be "highly compressed" audio as you mentioned in your post above.


I understand that music is mastered at a much higher rate, and that music files can be downloaded at a much higher level to a music player (USB, phone, etc), I think 99% of the GV70 users likely download their music or stream their music at CD Quality or less. I would also bet a substantial amount of money if the Lexicon system was fed a 48/16 and a 192/24 audio file that the quality of audio from the Lexicon system would remain the same and nobody would be able to hear any audible difference. So really, it's not a CarPlay limitation.

What needs to happen is people need to understand their audio and how to set up their devices to get the best possible audio, and higher quality audio files above CD quality isn't the answer.

I don't necessarily disagree with your hypothesis...
What I want to inject is that other than the specifics of the technical limitations of CarPlay or the iPhone for that matter, everything is subjective.

I have 8K+ files on a USB drive that are all 192/24.
I have a CarPlay wireless dongle I stopped using because, for me, there just was not substitute for the higher bitrate.
The only reason I know that it's working is that I have to drastically change my EQ settings.
EX: USB media, I have to pull back the mids dramatically, I push the treble up a few notches to account for clarity and accuracy over the road noise, and I bump the bass up 1 notch.
In actually, I wouldn't need to touch the bass at all if there was a subwoofer level control exposed.
The 3 band EQ in the car is sufficient, but there is a little bit more fine tuning I would like....

Using CarPlay, for me - was unlistenable.
It was a very fatiguing listening experience, no matter what I tried (and I tried a lot).
I may yet experiment with turning off completely the speed dependent EQ/Volume settings....

Again, this is all subjective, which is the reason they provide EQ's in the first place. LOL!

 

[deewan]

This is all similar to home audio and video. You can play a calibration disc and calibrate a display device, but if you play that same disc in a different player to the same display device, the calibration may need to change because each disc player has its own unique chips and algorithms for handling video.

The more times the audio has to be "transmitted" the more potential change can occur and the difference between source devices can be big.
Think about someone streaming audio from a phone. The phone device could contain different audio formats of different quality -> audio on a phone/device that may or may not have phone EQ settings applied -> transmitted via Manufacturer A's Bluetooth transmitter in a phone -> signal received by Manufacturer B's Bluetooth receiver built into a mass produced car -> connected to a mass produced Lexicon head unit that has 3 user adjustable EQ settings and 3 listening modes (reference, stage and audience) all of which are altering the audio signal -> sent to a DAC/amp that are altering the audio signal -> finally to mass produced speakers in non-ideal locations. All while playing music with road noise or windows down and air moving through the cabin. High bit rate files are the least of our worries. The long signal path is our biggest concern.

Obviously if you go straight from a USB storage device that eliminates any signal change the audio source and it would eliminate anything happening in the wireless bluetooth transfer. Using a USB puts you miles ahead for good audio.

 

[AuditoGenesis]

This is all similar to home audio and video. You can play a calibration disc and calibrate a display device, but if you play that same disc in a different player to the same display device, the calibration may need to change because each disc player has its own unique chips and algorithms for handling video.

The more times the audio has to be "transmitted" the more potential change can occur and the difference between source devices can be big.
Think about someone streaming audio from a phone. The phone device could contain different audio formats of different quality -> audio on a phone/device that may or may not have phone EQ settings applied -> transmitted via Manufacturer A's Bluetooth transmitter in a phone -> signal received by Manufacturer B's Bluetooth receiver built into a mass produced car -> connected to a mass produced Lexicon head unit that has 3 user adjustable EQ settings and 3 listening modes (reference, stage and audience) all of which are altering the audio signal -> sent to a DAC/amp that are altering the audio signal -> finally to mass produced speakers in non-ideal locations. All while playing music with road noise or windows down and air moving through the cabin. High bit rate files are the least of our worries. The long signal path is our biggest concern.

Obviously if you go straight from a USB storage device that eliminates any signal change the audio source and it would eliminate anything happening in the wireless bluetooth transfer. Using a USB puts you miles ahead for good audio.

I think you explained this more succinctly than I ever could...
Thank you.

 

[Lionorion]

Don't be bummed!!!!
Just change you expectations.
Wired Apple CarPlay is still pretty good.
1) Always use in the In-Car EQ and keep your iPhone EQ to off (not flat).
2) Wired CarPlay is limited to 48khz/16bit (Slightly better than CD Quality which is limited to 16bit) which is still pretty good - but only wired, it would be hard to tell the difference in a car.
3) Apple's nomenclature is part of the problem. CD's mastered today (44khz/16bit maximum format quality), are mostly lossless, because their original recording masters were made at much higher rates: 96khz/24bit, or 192khz/24bit. Some form of compression is used to master a CD. I've posted an audiophile description of why the nomenclature is important and has become a marketing issue versus a vernacular issue.

Loss For Words: Is CD Quality Lossless or Lossy?

In the world of audiophiles, most of us know about this stuff I am about to discuss. But there are more mainstream folks out there in the universe appropriating some audio terminology that may b...

audiophilereview.com

Apple CarPlay is limited to 48khz/16bit when wired because Apple's phone DSP is maxed out at 48kzh/24bit. It's SLIGHTLY better than CD, but likely not noticeable in a car.
The ONLY time Apple is truly lossless is when using AirDrop and only if the receiving device has a DAC (Digital to Analog Convertor) that can support bit-rates higher than 44khz/24bit, which is the maximum bitrate ANY recent iPhone can support (although I believe the hardware is actually capable of much more and Apple is limiting it for some reason).

The biggest issue is vernacular.

That may be correct for streaming, but for downloads, that’s just not right…I just took this screen shot:

 

[AuditoGenesis]

That may be correct for streaming, but for downloads, that’s just not right…I just took this screen shot:
View attachment 48500

Had this long reply prepared, but realized it was probably too much...
Let's just say, everything Apple says isn't necessarily technically true.
For example, their definition of Lossless, for one.
Bitrate, is bitrate - streamed or downloaded... doesn't matter.

They would have been better off using: Good, Better and Best to represent the above.
Their inclusion of bitrate and sample rate is unnecessary, because even with audiophiles, there's a HUGE debate about what bitrate and sample rate is truly lossless.

That's why I jumped in.
CD Quality used to be the benchmark for lossless audio (still debated), especially among vinyl fans....
Then came digital audio, MP3 and AAC, which weren't even CD quality.
Then came streaming, which added multiple bit rates and file formats, and compression codecs, etc., and the whole argument about which codec was better at reproducing accurately, using highly compressed audio....(MP3 max = 320Kbps, AAC = 256Kbps).
Then came streaming and the release of HIGHER bitrates for public consumption, sparking the debate about what is truly lossless, being as CD is no longer the benchmark...

Somewhere in there they Sony and Philips developed the SACD - which uses CRAZY high bitrates, but really requires an extremely expensive system to enjoy, most consumers wouldn't invest in such things....

Apple would have just been better off with: Good, Better and Best.
Thereby eliminating any discussions about the vernacular they chose....

PS: My original reply was MUCH longer... LOL

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[deewan]

Had this long reply prepared, but realized it was probably too much...
Let's just say, everything Apple says isn't necessarily technically true.
For example, their definition of Lossless, for one.
Bitrate, is bitrate - streamed or downloaded... doesn't matter.

They would have been better off using: Good, Better and Best to represent the above.
Their inclusion of bitrate and sample rate is unnecessary, because even with audiophiles, there's a HUGE debate about what bitrate and sample rate is truly lossless.

That's why I jumped in.
CD Quality used to be the benchmark for lossless audio (still debated), especially among vinyl fans....
Then came digital audio, MP3 and AAC, which weren't even CD quality.
Then came streaming, which added multiple bit rates and file formats, and compression codecs, etc., and the whole argument about which codec was better at reproducing accurately, using highly compressed audio....(MP3 max = 320Kbps, AAC = 256Kbps).
Then came streaming and the release of HIGHER bitrates for public consumption, sparking the debate about what is truly lossless, being as CD is no longer the benchmark...

Somewhere in there they Sony and Philips developed the SACD - which uses CRAZY high bitrates, but really requires an extremely expensive system to enjoy, most consumers wouldn't invest in such things....

Apple would have just been better off with: Good, Better and Best.
Thereby eliminating any discussions about the vernacular they chose....

PS: My original reply was MUCH longer... LOL

None of what you said impacts the OP about poor sound. I would bet my GV70 that you cannot hear the difference between lossless (Better) audio and Lossless (Best) if they are fed from the same device while riding in the GV70 at 25+ mph or at 0 mph with the windows down. This thread is becoming a meaningless discussion on audio files instead of addressing the original post of squeezing the best sound out of the Lexicon system!!!

 

[Lionorion]

Anyways…Anybody that says the bass is lacking, maybe is listening to the wrong joint? This joint bumps on the Lexicon in the GV70!

 

[AuditoGenesis]

None of what you said impacts the OP about poor sound. I would bet my GV70 that you cannot hear the difference between lossless (Better) audio and Lossless (Best) if they are fed from the same device while riding in the GV70 at 25+ mph or at 0 mph with the windows down. This thread is becoming a meaningless discussion on audio files instead of addressing the original post of squeezing the best sound out of the Lexicon system!!!

You are very right, and I apologize.
I think the best way to get the best sound is to start with a good source.
I think agree that USB music is the best place to start, but the OP will need to decide if CarPlay features are more or less important than the sound quality.
Not sure it's possible to have your cake and eat it too, with this system.

On a side note:
Every 5 or 6 starts, the input levels change.
Last night I was listening to a song and shut down midway through, volume was at 45.
This evening, I had to turn the volume up to 58 to get the same level...
This has been happening since I got the car, I just couldn't put my finger on it...

 

[jgaines3200]

I actually think the Lexicon sound system sounds fantastic....But I also don't sit in the back seat....but I've not noticed any issues at all and its by far the best stock audio system I've ever used.

 

[deewan]

I ordered a USB cable to allow me to connect my laptop directly to the GV70 stereo system, but the cable won't be delivered until tomorrow and today I am leaving for a week. I won't get any measurements taken for a bit, but below is my plan to measure the GV70 with several different methods. These measuring tests should help provide us an understanding of any differences between sources and actual system performance. Measurements will be taken with a calibrated mic and REW software.

1. Laptop connected to GV70 stereo using Bluetooth connection windows up. GV70 EQ (bass, mid, high) all set to 0
   • Measure sweep from 20Hz to 500Hz (focuses on bass)
   • Measure sweep from 40Hz to 15kHz (more full frequency that most music falls into)
2. Laptop connected to GV70 stereo using Bluetooth connection windows down. GV70 EQ (bass, mid, high) all set to 0
   • Measure sweep from 20Hz to 500Hz
   • Measure sweep from 40Hz to 15kHz
3. Laptop connected to GV70 using USB connection windows up. GV70 EQ (bass, mid, high) all set to 0
   • Measure sweep from 20Hz to 500Hz
   • Measure sweep from 40Hz to 15kHz
4. Laptop connected to GV70 using USB connection windows up. GV70 EQ (bass, mid, high) all set to 0
   • Measure sweep from 20Hz to 500Hz
   • Measure sweep from 40Hz to 15kHz
5. Laptop connected to GV70 stereo using Bluetooth connection windows up. GV70 EQ bass at 7, mid at 0, high at 6
   • Measure sweep from 20Hz to 500Hz (focuses on bass)
   • Measure sweep from 40Hz to 15kHz (more full frequency that most music falls into)
6. Laptop connected to GV70 stereo using Bluetooth connection windows down. GV70 EQ bass at 7, mid at 0, high at 6
   • Measure sweep from 20Hz to 500Hz
   • Measure sweep from 40Hz to 15kHz
7. Laptop connected to GV70 using USB connection windows up. GV70 EQ bass at 7, mid at 0, high at 6
   • Measure sweep from 20Hz to 500Hz
   • Measure sweep from 40Hz to 15kHz
8. Laptop connected to GV70 using USB connection windows up. GV70 EQ bass at 7, mid at 0, high at 6
   • Measure sweep from 20Hz to 500Hz
   • Measure sweep from 40Hz to 15kHz

I plan on taking these measurements two to three times each, and starting and shutting the car off between each cycle as some have noted that Sometimes bass response is great and then next drive the bass response is lacking for the same song. I want try and figure out a way t send these test sweeps through CarPlay, but I am still workinbout those details. I THINK I could create a bit-for-bit wav file of the two sweeps and load those to my iPhone. Then play the sweeps and measure them with the mic and software, but I need to think about that some more.

 

[Pearlturbo]

When you go to the movie theatre, or even a home theatre, do you hear the same amount of volume/audio from the back you do the front?.. no.. I would think it’s the same concept.

Chorus, instruments, play at different speakers for that listening experience. When I sit in the back I hear exactly that. I don’t expect to hear the same audio as the front. It’s for that listening experience. Hence why it’s called Quantum Logic Surround..

And the system is for the driver, which is obviously front focused lol. Sitting in the drivers seat and hearing those different tones, instruments from the back speakers, just amazing. All I know is I’m listening to my audio right and I love it.

Though, I agree pending on what setting you have out of the 3 type of surrounds, can lack back speaker audio.. IMO, Audience has the best listening experience. To me, I feel like that’s true surround because those back speakers are all over the place with instruments and vocals. I don’t get that experience with Reference and On Stage

 

[deewan]

When you go to the movie theatre, or even a home theatre, do you hear the same amount of volume/audio from the back you do the front?.. no.. I would think it’s the same concept.

Chorus, instruments, play at different speakers for that listening experience. When I sit in the back I hear exactly that. I don’t expect to hear the same audio as the front. It’s for that listening experience. Hence why it’s called Quantum Logic Surround..

And the system is for the driver, which is obviously front focused lol. Sitting in the drivers seat and hearing those different tones, instruments from the back speakers, just amazing. All I know is I’m listening to my audio right and I love it.

Though, I agree pending on what setting you have out of the 3 type of surrounds, can lack back speaker audio.. IMO, Audience has the best listening experience. To me, I feel like that’s true surround because those back speakers are all over the place with instruments and vocals. I don’t get that experience with Reference and On Stage

The issue with comparing the GV70 system to a commercial movie or home theater system (something I am VERY familiar with), those systems are fed a multi-channel audio track (DTS, Dobly, Auro, etc) with either discrete or object based sounds meant to be placed around the room. I do not expect on-screen dialog to come from the surround speakers or the surround speakers to be as active as the front stage.

With that said, I had overlooked that the three listening options with the Lexicon system are all Quantum Logic. I wrongly assumed the "Reference" option was not using the DSP to create a upmixed, multichannel sound from a 2-channel signal. I did assume the On-Stage and Audience options were umpiring and redirected sound to include the in-dash center channel speaker. This is disappointing news about the Reference option that the second row seating is essentially expected to accept only effects of music, and not a full sound. I believe Quantum Logic was initially created for two seat, high performance cars where there was no backseat so rear speakers could be used for effects. But since I am always driving the GV70 and I rarely have passengers in the backseat, I guess it doesn't matter much to me. But it will cause me to not care about replacing the rear speakers should I choose to upgrade the drivers of the system.

I am still very curious about how the overall system measures and if the system sometimes does cutback on bass or volume with each new restart.

 

[Amtip]

Anyone have an idea how this system compares to a stock VA WRX system? Or more specifically a WRX with the Subaru offered Kicker upgraded speakers a sub? I have an inline amp installed and it's pretty much perfect for me, in fact there's almost slightly too much bass, I like to be able to feel it well but don't want to have to readjust my rear view constantly.

Should I put the inline amp in the GV70 when I get it?

 

[Lionorion]

Anyone have an idea how this system compares to a stock VA WRX system? Or more specifically a WRX with the Subaru offered Kicker upgraded speakers a sub? I have an inline amp installed and it's pretty much perfect for me, in fact there's almost slightly too much bass, I like to be able to feel it well but don't want to have to readjust my rear view constantly.

Should I put the inline amp in the GV70 when I get it?

The Lexicon system is superior.

The only competing system is Hondas implementation of the ELS Studio 3D Signature system, found in the MDX Type S Which is the best sounding system south of the fancy Burmeister systems available in some Mercedes, and is better than our Lexicon system.

ELS Studio | Acura Premium Audio System | Acura.com

Crafted by a team of automotive and acoustic experts, the ELS Studio Premium Audio System brings the realism and artistic intimacy of the recording studio to the interior of your vehicle.

www.acura.com

 

[Duality]

Lionorion is very correct with his settings. Only thing i would add is an amp, and rear bass.