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Premium in the 5.0

trotti

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Curious to know what percentage of the new 5.0 owners run premium? Here in Missouri, unfortunately, "Premium" is 91 octane.

I've tried both and don't really notice a difference between the two in power. My driving habits vary so wildly (sometime lots of highway in a tank, sometimes none) that I can't yet get a good reading for how the MPG fares with the change. I've got a three hour drive and a trip back coming up - I may try to compare at that point.

1,300 miles and still smiling ;)
 
I run with 91 or 92 if I can find it. I have never used regular gas so I cant make any comparison.
 
For what it's worth, I run 93 Octane all the time in all my cars. Even a little Elantra. Silly? Perhaps. However, years ago I had a V-6 Altima that intermittently hesitated and pinged. Went to premium and it stopped. Haven't burn regular since. I've even gotten lucky and found a gas station with non ethanol 93 octane but haven't had a chance to try it yet. If one is going to pop for an R-Spec then one should enjoy everything it can give.
 
I have approximately 675 miles on my R-Spec now and have only purchased 93 Octane to date. I most likely will continue to do so as I only fill the tank about twice per month. With even a $.30 per gallon difference (and it is often less of a difference), I figure the premium (over regular) will cost me about $140 a year extra. I don't believe I had any business purchasing a $45,000+ car if I cannot afford an extra $140 a year for premium. I can certainly understand this issue if you are putting a lot more miles on your car in a year.
 
Good points - I put premium in during the last fill up and I did feel better about how I treated the car - if nothing else, isn't that worth the $.30?
 
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For what it's worth, I run 93 Octane all the time in all my cars. Even a little Elantra. Silly? Perhaps. However, years ago I had a V-6 Altima that intermittently hesitated and pinged. Went to premium and it stopped. Haven't burn regular since. I've even gotten lucky and found a gas station with non ethanol 93 octane but haven't had a chance to try it yet. If one is going to pop for an R-Spec then one should enjoy everything it can give.

Do you realize that modern cars are timed to burn a specific octane and that burning a higher than recommended octane is not only not beneficial, but could actually be causing you a disservice (lower hp, lower fuel economy, etc.)?

It's a myth oil companies have created that premium is "better" for all engines. It should only be used if recommended by the manufacturer.
 
Johnboy,
Page 1-3 of my owners manual.

"4.6/5.0 engine
For improved vehicle performance, premium unleaded fuel with a Pump Octane Rating of 91 or higher is recommended".

I think you're underestimating what computers can do.
 
Nope, I'm not. It's recommended by Hyundai. I'd like to see that same statement in the Elantra OM.
 
Two things determine the octane rating an engine needs and/or is optimized for:
1: compression ratio
2: ignition timing
Other things can affect it too (e.g. air to fuel ratios) but most emissions laws make these non-players: to meet emissions, the engine computer (ECU) can't command an over-rich air-fuel ratios to compensate for lower octane fuel any more.

Higher compression ratio = more thermodynamic efficiency (more HP per gallon or more MPG for a given HP level) but more tendency to knock or pre-ignite. Pre-ignition is what limits compression levels in engines today. Higher octane means the fuel is more resistant to self-ignition (igniting due to compression pressures & temperatures) which delays knock/pre-ignition so higher compression engines tend to require higher octane fuels. At some point, if octane is low enough, the compression in the cylinders will ignite the air+fuel mix without any spark - like a diesel engine. For a gas engine, this is very bad because "compression ignition" is a violent burn - more like an explosion.

Ignition timing exists because it takes a finite amount of time (albeit short) for the spark plug's spark to spread to the whole combustion chamber and get the whole air+fuel mix burning. Ideally the "burn" happens just as the piston is about to go downwards, on its power stroke, so the burn pushes the piston down as much as possible. If the burn is late, the piston has already started down so some chance to make power is lost. If the burn is too early, the piston is still on its way up and the burn actually tries to push it backwards --> subtracting power. This is extremely high stresses on the engine by the way - busted pistons, bent/busted connecting rods, etc. are the usual results from excessive early combustion. The whole point of ignition timing is to advance the spark just enough so that the burn peaks just as the piston is ready to move down. The spark therefor has to happen as the piston is still moving up typically - and the higher the engine RPMs, the "earlier" in the rotation cycle the spark needs to be to have the same physical amount of time to spread to the chamber. The quantity of air+fuel in the chamber affects the amount of ignition timing advance too - more air+fuel (i.e. you've got the throttle pedal mashed to the floor) is denser in the chamber so the burn spreads faster and less advance is needed. Thus ignition advance is a function of engine RPMs plus amount of air+fuel in the chambers.

The problem is... the ideal point to fire the spark also varies with how ready the fuel set to burn. Low octane fuels burn easier... so the spark can't be quite as early as it needs to be with higher octane fuels. If the spark is too early for the octane, the burn starts and then "flashes" rapidly through the rest of the air+fuel mix. In mild cases you get the "pinging" sounds; in severe cases the "burn" is more like an explosion ==> smashes parts rather than increasing pressure at a more controlled rate that pushes the piston down.

Modern computer controlled engines have one or more "knock sensors" attached to the engine block; they're basically small microphones. They "listen" for certain tell-tale frequencies in the block - when found, that's early knock/detonation/pinging. The computer reduces the ignition timing advance until this goes away. The computer constantly tries pushing its luck; re-advancing the timing until the knock sensors detect problems. When you give the car higher octane fuel, the computer will slowly detect "hey, I can get away with more timing advance" and HP and MPG can improve.

On older cars, with mechanical distributors that use centrifugal weights and vacuum advance mechanisms to control timing... this doesn't happen. Those mechanical setups can't "learn" or adapt to different octane ratings. So they're generally set conservative so one tank of bad gas won't hurt the engine... though that setting doesn't take full advantage of any good gas either.

Cars designed to run on higher octane fuel - those with higher compression ratios - suffer faster with lower octane fuels... compared to what MPG or HP gains an engine designed for regular octane sees when given the high octane stuff. That high compression engine has to really reduce ignition timing to compensate for lower octane fuels and thus keep the compression from igniting the air+fuel mix... this hurts MPG and HP. A low compression engine can advance timing and get big benefits with high-octane fuel.

Knock/pre-ignition is what limits the compression ratio possible in engines. With modern fuel delivery techniques, better shaping of the combustion chamber shapes (to avoid local "hot spots" that want to ignite faster), reverse-flow cooling systems (radiator water goes from the radiator to the cyl head first, then the block, in modern engines so the heads are cooler and it's the heads that form the combustion chamber), compression ratios have been increasing over the last few years. Direct fuel injection helps a ton: if there is no gas in the chambers during the piston's compression stroke, there's no chance of knock/pre-ignition. Direct injection sprays the fuel into the cylinders once the piston is ready for the burn. And this sprayed-in fuel happens to help cool the air compressed in the chamber reducing the chances of self-ignition. Ergo more compression ratio can be built into the engine in the first place.


mike c.
 
Mikec,
I put in my first tank of non ethanol 93 octane yesterday. Walked into the store to ask if in fact it was non ethanol and was assured it was. Also, there was a big sign outside which I missed. Asked the woman behind the counter how they got away with it and she said, "it's a secret". Regardless, you seem to be very knowledgeable concerning this issue. I'd wager a 1-3% increase in power without the ethanol. What do you think? I know this, I own a small boat. The marina where it is kept sells non ethanol regular for boats, about $4.50 a gallon. Ninety percent of the engines they sell and service are Yamaha 4 stroke outboard engines ranging in size from 90 hp up to 350 hp V8's. Many people that trailer their boats fill up at gas stations because the fuel is so much cheaper. Unfortunately, they seem to be damaging their engines according to the marina's service department.
Thanks
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Mikec,
I put in my first tank of non ethanol 93 octane yesterday. Walked into the store to ask if in fact it was non ethanol and was assured it was. Also, there was a big sign outside which I missed. Asked the woman behind the counter how they got away with it and she said, "it's a secret". Regardless, you seem to be very knowledgeable concerning this issue. I'd wager a 1-3% increase in power without the ethanol. What do you think? I know this, I own a small boat. The marina where it is kept sells non ethanol regular for boats, about $4.50 a gallon. Ninety percent of the engines they sell and service are Yamaha 4 stroke outboard engines ranging in size from 90 hp up to 350 hp V8's. Many people that trailer their boats fill up at gas stations because the fuel is so much cheaper. Unfortunately, they seem to be damaging their engines according to the marina's service department.
Thanks

Can you share what brand of gas is non-ethanol 93 octane? Where can I get this? The highest I've seen I'm my area is 92 octane and 10% ethanol. Could be a state requirement here.
 
Can you share what brand of gas is non-ethanol 93 octane? Where can I get this? The highest I've seen I'm my area is 92 octane and 10% ethanol. Could be a state requirement here.
In many large metropolitan areas (and some entire states) non-ethanol gas is not permitted to be sold due to polution regulations.

With regard to 93 octane, you can buy additives such as Amsoil Series 2000 Octane Boost (similar products available from other vendors) to raise your octane level. Note that when they say it can boost Octane rating by up to 7 points, that does not mean from 92 to 99, but is more like from 92 to 92.7 (a point is 1/10 an 1 octane according to what I read, but I have no direct personal knowledge myself).
 
Seattle Genesis,
I live in NC. Several years ago I took a road trip as far west as Idaho. I certainly don't remember where it started but in most western states all I could find was 91 octane. Regardless, I don't know the brand of gas I'm using because it's from a small independent store. A friend of mine that drives a BMW M3 told me about it. It's not so much the octane level but more of an attempt to get the worthless ethanol out of my car. I did pay $4.25 a gallon. As I said my marina has no ethanol gas, it's 87 octane, however, and they want $4.50 a gallon. It just might not be worth all the cost and trouble to find and burn.
Thanks
 
Seattle Genesis,
I live in NC. Several years ago I took a road trip as far west as Idaho. I certainly don't remember where it started but in most western states all I could find was 91 octane.
The octane rating of gas that is sold depends on the altitude. In places like Denver at 5280 feet altitude, the premium is 91 octane. Regular is about 85 octane. Same is also true in many places in Idaho. This is perfectly normal, although I am not sure if this adjustment is actually necessary if everyone drove new computer controlled engines, but is definitely necessary for older engines.

However, by the time one gets back to sea level in Seattle, premium should be back to 93 octane.

In Denver, engines typically deliver about 10% less hp due to the altitude (less octane and less O2).
 
Hey guys. Just love this Genesis thread. I am having one of those moments when you get lost in this forum after the family goes to bed. I have my iPad all to myself:)

I am searching price points for a possible Rspec purchase tomorrow. Thought my 2 cents with my 2011 4.6 might contribute. I drove 33,800 miles this year. A lot of my travel was the same 2hr stretch in all kinds of temperatures. Safe to say my experience was much better mpg with 91 octane vs 87 octane. I always did the trip computer and reset my avg mpg once underway. Try to avoid ethanol.

My best was 29mpg at 80mph.
My low avg is 24.5 at 80mph on 87 octane.
Around town, I think it's even a larger difference between the two?

For grins, I got a snap shot at 130mph with my avg mpg reading 26mpg. Did it for a friend. :mad:
 
I have approximately 675 miles on my R-Spec now and have only purchased 93 Octane to date. I most likely will continue to do so as I only fill the tank about twice per month. With even a $.30 per gallon difference (and it is often less of a difference), I figure the premium (over regular) will cost me about $140 a year extra. I don't believe I had any business purchasing a $45,000+ car if I cannot afford an extra $140 a year for premium. I can certainly understand this issue if you are putting a lot more miles on your car in a year.

If people can't afford to spend extra money on premium gas then they should not have spent 35k or more for a car. 140 a year is not much but considering what the Genny cost, neither is 1400.00 per year which is less than 4.00 a day. Buy the premium for the premium V8 Genesis. Thats my two cents.
 
In these cars, I think using top-tier gas is as important (or more) a decision as whether you use regular, mid-grade or premium. The detergents in top-tier brands-- and BP, which exceeds the top-tier standard -- are particularly important with the direct injection engines beginning in MY 2012. Clean is hugely important with high pressure injection.

I have not used regular, but have filled up with 89 a couple of times with no noticeable degradation in performance, drivability or fuel economy. BP 93 or Shell 91 are my preferred choices, or where it can be purchased (legally or ?) non-ethanol, of course.
 
From what I ave found out from talking and research the car is tuned to run 87 or higher octane fuel. On 87 it makes 420 hp and on 93 it makes 429hp. I have always ran 93 on my cars here in Texas and it really makes a difference because I drag race and every little bit counts if you know what I mean. hope this helps
 
I use premium in town; and always use the cheapest regular on Interstate travel.
My research over the years concluded that premium gasoline has less BTU than regular, meaning there is more energy potential in regular. From time to time I compare Interstate gas mileage alternating tanks of regular and premium; and have always found better gas mileage on Interstates with regular. I realize that this is crude test, but it has always been consistent. Generally, the differential seems to be about 1.5 mpg. Interstate driving is usually light throttle where there is no detonation causing the ignition advance to be dialed back.
In town and where there is joyful acceleration I stick with premium.
I once had a long discussion with a state employee whose sole job is to test gasoline in local gas stations. He remarked that it is almost unheard of for 87 octane to test less. It has always tested more. He speculates that refineries often fill trucks with premium so as to simplify loading gas stations.
He also said that gasoline octane degrades with time.
Most people use regular, so premium tends to sell much more slowly - meaning more opportunity for premium octane to significantly degrade. For this reason I try to buy fuel from high volumne stations where there is a higher probability of fresher fuel.
 
I use premium in town; and always use the cheapest regular on Interstate travel.
My research over the years concluded that premium gasoline has less BTU than regular, meaning there is more energy potential in regular. From time to time I compare Interstate gas mileage alternating tanks of regular and premium; and have always found better gas mileage on Interstates with regular. I realize that this is crude test, but it has always been consistent. Generally, the differential seems to be about 1.5 mpg. Interstate driving is usually light throttle where there is no detonation causing the ignition advance to be dialed back.
In town and where there is joyful acceleration I stick with premium.
I once had a long discussion with a state employee whose sole job is to test gasoline in local gas stations. He remarked that it is almost unheard of for 87 octane to test less. It has always tested more. He speculates that refineries often fill trucks with premium so as to simplify loading gas stations.
He also said that gasoline octane degrades with time.
Most people use regular, so premium tends to sell much more slowly - meaning more opportunity for premium octane to significantly degrade. For this reason I try to buy fuel from high volumne stations where there is a higher probability of fresher fuel.


I just switched gasolines, and now run 91 octane E0 (non-ethonal). Previously was using BP's 93 octane E10. MPG's are up right about 1.9 MPG's. I now run it in all my cars. Give it a shot if ya like:D
 
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