VERBIER WHITE matt finish problems

[mdennis327]

Anyone have problems with VERBIER WHITE matt finish, I heard you can have problems using a car wash and it could mess up the finish. Any other issues?

 

[Volfy]

Matte finish comes with a whole host of challenges. It's basically handwash only. Even touchless car wash can have water jets that are strong enough to run on the matte paint. You also have to be careful when trying to remove road tar, dried bird poop, etc. Rub too hard, and you could burnish the matte finish.

 

[mdennis327]

Matte finish comes with a whole host of challenges. It's basically handwash only. Even touchless car wash can have water jets that are strong enough to run on the matte paint. You also have to be careful when trying to remove road tar, dried bird poop, etc. Rub too hard, and you could burnish the matte finish.

Thanks

 

[freelancer]

I love my Verbier. Washed it at a hand wash place, then brought it home, did the Dr. B's kit that came with it. The jet washes probably have too strong of detergent and I would stay way. Going to replace the front badge with the black and the rear letters with black and then have the dark chrome wrapped in black as well. Get some good layers of wax on the rims and they clean up super easy.

 

[MichaelJohnson]

Anyone have problems with VERBIER WHITE matt finish, I heard you can have problems using a car wash and it could mess up the finish. Any other issues?

I have Melbourne Gray matte. Put a coating on it and hand wash only. Dr. Beasley's has a great product line for matte. I don't find it anymore difficult to care for than a "regular" paint job considering all of my vehicles receive the hand wash treatment. However, I'd be lying if I said there aren't risks that exist for matte finishes that aren't as big of a concern with other finishes.

 

[Volfy]

IMO the biggest challenge to matte finish is the inability to do the typical paint correction. With glossy paint, if you have scratches, swirls, orange peel, or any number of flaws, a good detailer can polish and buff the finish back to a mirror shine.

With matte finish, that is not possible. So if you ever end up with any flaws, you basically just have to live with it. The next recourse is a panel refinish, as spot refinish is impossible, again because you cannot polish and buff to blend with old paint. Even panel refinish is iffy with matte paint, as tint match with old paint is even more difficult than the most challenging glossy finish.

I've done auto painting for many years and loved it as a hobby. I've done spoilers, body kits, as well as whole cars and bikes. I would not attempt a matte job if my life depended on it.

 

[MichaelJohnson]

IMO the biggest challenge to matte finish is the inability to do the typical paint correction. With glossy paint, if you have scratches, swirls, orange peel, or any number of flaws, a good detailer can polish and buff the finish back to a mirror shine.

I agree. It would be better to have a wrap put on the vehicle if there was any damage to the matte finish. That's my plan anyway.

I would also add that professional paint correction isn't always an option for gloss finishes either. The paint on my wife's Mazda CX-5 (Soul Red Metallic) is so thin that my detailer decided against it.

 

[Volfy]

I agree. It would be better to have a wrap put on the vehicle if there was any damage to the matte finish. That's my plan anyway.

I would also add that professional paint correction isn't always an option for gloss finishes either. The paint on my wife's Mazda CX-5 (Soul Red Metallic) is so thin that my detailer decided against it.

That reminds me of another thing. How would PPF look on matte finish. Obviously the typical glossy type would look, well... glossy over the matte finish. Are there matte finish PPF? Not sure how that would look.

Yes, a lot of OEM top coats are rather thin. When I shoot my own paint, I usually lay on generous coats of urethane clear. It's relatively cheap and not only does it allow for plenty of paint correction, if necessary, it gives the final finish that "wet" look.

Also, there are glossy paint finishes that are a PITN to deal with. Candy and pearl colors are notorious difficult to tint match, because the mid (color) coat is translucent, so the color saturation depends on how many coats you lay on. Plus it also precludes the possibility of blending with old paint, so no spot refinishing.

It all comes down to how much you like the particular finish. That'll dictate whether you are willing to put up with the inherent issues to get that "look".

 

[MichaelJohnson]

That reminds me of another thing. How would PPF look on matte finish. Obviously the typical glossy type would look, well... glossy over the matte finish. Are there matte finish PPF? Not sure how that would look.

I'm not sure how it would look. My original plan was to have it installed on the hood and front bumper cover. However, I was too paranoid to try it considering the factory installed PPF by the rear doors is very noticeable. It seemed to me that there would be a difference in appearance from the hood/bumper cover to the fender. Having PPF over white paint with matte finish probably wouldn't be as noticeable.

 

[MichaelJohnson]

Yes, a lot of OEM top coats are rather thin. When I shoot my own paint, I usually lay on generous coats of urethane clear. It's relatively cheap and not only does it allow for plenty of paint correction, if necessary, it gives the final finish that "wet" look.

It's amazing how much the clear coat changes the overall appearance! The gray under my hood and around the trunk looks like a completely different color than what you'll see on top of the hood/trunk. I'll post a few pictures after I give the car a bath. There's some beautiful weather here today...sunny and 75

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[Volfy]

It's amazing how much the clear coat changes the overall appearance! The gray under my hood and around the trunk looks like a completely different color than what you'll see on top of the hood/trunk. I'll post a few pictures after I give the car a bath. There's some beautiful weather here today...sunny and 75

Please do. BTW, I'm exceedingly envious of your location. If I live where you live, I'm not sure I could make it to work 5 days of the week. I'd be liable to get lost on the way to work and wound up slicing and dicing the Tail of the Dragon.

 

[MichaelJohnson]

Please do. BTW, I'm exceedingly envious of your location. If I live where you live, I'm not sure I could make it to work 5 days of the week. I'd be liable to get lost on the way to work and wound up slicing and dicing the Tail of the Dragon.

Here are a few pictures for your viewing pleasure.
I truly enjoy living here. There are so many roads where I can actually "drive" the G70. I'm spoiled for sure! As for the dragon, I've never been on it. I've always had the opinion that there are too many people driving that thing for me to give it a whirl. I prefer the roads less traveled. I should probably drive it at least once

 

[Volfy]

Mfrs almost always use a different paint code for non-exterior body panels (underhood, undercarriage, interior cavity, etc.) to help control cost. It is typically non-metallic (even if the exterior paint is) and quite often single-stage, instead of 2-stage (base+clear) or 3-stage (ground+base+clear). They usually do try to keep the hue somewhat similar, so it doesn't look odd next to the exterior paint.

This is actually a good way of spotting used cars that have had collision repair done, since body shop don't always bother to buy the second paint code, so if you ever see the same exact exterior paint on a non-exterior body panel (like a fender well), it might be a warning sign.

 

[Volfy]

I truly enjoy living here. There are so many roads where I can actually "drive" the G70. I'm spoiled for sure! As for the dragon, I've never been on it. I've always had the opinion that there are too many people driving that thing for me to give it a whirl. I prefer the roads less traveled. I should probably drive it at least once

Right on. My son and I are planning on a road trip this Summer to go drive some famous twisties. Have not decided whether we'd go back to Arkansas (trip last Winter break was what inspired us), or Colorado, or your neck of the woods, the Smoky Mountains. I've heard that ToD is usually clogged with tourists, especially on weekends. Worst is probably the 1/4 mile long Harley train putt-putting at a snail pace. Get stuck behind them, and it's 318 curves of snooze fest. If we do head that way, we'll plan to catch the Dragon on weekdays, maybe early morning, or whenever the low traffic hours might be. Then hit other fun roads the rest of the day.

 

[MichaelJohnson]

Mfrs almost always use a different paint code for non-exterior body panels (underhood, undercarriage, interior cavity, etc.) to help control cost. It is typically non-metallic (even if the exterior paint is) and quite often single-stage, instead of 2-stage (base+clear) or 3-stage (ground+base+clear). They usually do try to keep the hue somewhat similar, so it doesn't look odd next to the exterior paint.

This is actually a good way of spotting used cars that have had collision repair done, since body shop don't always bother to buy the second paint code, so if you ever see the same exact exterior paint on a non-exterior body panel (like a fender well), it might be a warning sign.

You seem awfully knowledgeable about these things. Do you work in the automotive industry?

My wife and I are taking 2 weeks at the beginning of October to head out west for a road trip.

 

[Volfy]

You seem awfully knowledgeable about these things. Do you work in the automotive industry?

Nope. I kinda wished I did sometimes, but then I think turning hobby into work might just sap all the fun out of it. I started shooting automotive paint basically out of necessity, because I wanted to paint a rear spoiler for a VW GTi. Found out not many body shops wanted the job, so they either quoted me some astronomical $$ amount to shoosh me away, or they just flat out declined it. So... as with so many of these things I got myself into, I just ended up going F-it... I'll do it myself! Took a lot of trial and errors at first, and realistically, I probably spent way too much just to paint that stupid spoiler, but over the years, it grew into a serious hobby as I started to do more and more projects, once I got pretty decent at it. I must say, it turned out to be one of the most rewarding hobbies I've ever taken on.

Once I got into it, I chatted with automotive refinishing suppliers and basically whomever in the biz that would care to talk, so I learned a lot from the "pros". I used to have access to PPG and Sherwin Williams auto refinishing paint code websites, where you can search up OEM paint codes and see various alternate formulas. They've since locked them out except for qualified job shops only.

Haven't done much painting these days. The older I get, the lazier I become. The last big job was a Mini Cooper Countryman, where I body-colored all the black plastic trim pieces, plus a set of driving light shells.

 

[Genny Guy]

Mfrs almost always use a different paint code for non-exterior body panels (underhood, undercarriage, interior cavity, etc.) to help control cost. It is typically non-metallic (even if the exterior paint is) and quite often single-stage, instead of 2-stage (base+clear) or 3-stage (ground+base+clear). They usually do try to keep the hue somewhat similar, so it doesn't look odd next to the exterior paint.

This is actually a good way of spotting used cars that have had collision repair done, since body shop don't always bother to buy the second paint code, so if you ever see the same exact exterior paint on a non-exterior body panel (like a fender well), it might be a warning sign.

I hate this. Makes the car look cheap imo. I understand why they do it and how over hundreds of thousands, even millions of vehicles it can add up. I just wonder how much per car it's actually saving. I wonder if other high end manufacturers like Porsche and Mercedes do this as well?

 

[Volfy]

I hate this. Makes the car look cheap imo. I understand why they do it and how over hundreds of thousands, even millions of vehicles it can add up. I just wonder how much per car it's actually saving. I wonder if other high end manufacturers like Porsche and Mercedes do this as well?

From the mfr's perspective, there is little justification not to:

1. The exterior and non-exterior paint process are done in different stages of the body production line. The robotic paint sprayers could be calibrated with different fluid tip and pressure settings, so there is next to no possibility the different paint stages producing matching paint. Early production G70 actually suffered from this exact problem, as the bumper paint didn't match the rest of the body, because they were done in different stages, even they are the exact same paint code. If you are curious, Google why there are so many used red G70s with only a few miles on the odometer.

2. The paint process is more complicated than most folks realize. Each stage in the paint process is comprised of more than 1 coat. That means a 2-stage paint (base+clear) could be some 4-6 coats total, with flash time in between. Unlike automotive refinishing where it is just a person doing the spraying, so all he does is spray 1 coat, wait 5-10min flash time, and spray another coat. Production lines these days are fully automated with robotics, where every single move has to be programmed, calibrated, test run, evaluated, recalibrated, and re-tested. The more coats required in the overall process, the process grows more complicated geometrically. Now imagine tri-coat paints (ground+base+clear) with upwards of 10 coats, and difficult-to-calibrate ones like matte finish discussed herein.

3. Unlike exterior panels, where appearance is of paramount importance, non-exterior panels really just require good corrosion protection for the substrate. Yeah, there are guys that obsess over dressing up their engine compartment to the nines and keeping it spotless in order to show off to their buddies and on Facebook groups, the vast majority of car buyers couldn't give a rat's behind how the underhood paint don't quite match the exterior. A good portion of them probably never opened the hood.

Besides, UV protection, which is formulated into automotive clear top coats, is not required where the sun don't shine 364.5 days out of a year.

 

[Genny Guy]

From the mfr's perspective, there is little justification not to:

1. The exterior and non-exterior paint process are done in different stages of the body production line. The robotic paint sprayers could be calibrated with different fluid tip and pressure settings, so there is next to no possibility the different paint stages producing matching paint. Early production G70 actually suffered from this exact problem, as the bumper paint didn't match the rest of the body, because they were done in different stages, even they are the exact same paint code. If you are curious, Google why there are so many used red G70s with only a few miles on the odometer.

2. The paint process is more complicated than most folks realize. Each stage in the paint process is comprised of more than 1 coat. That means a 2-stage paint (base+clear) could be some 4-6 coats total, with flash time in between. Unlike automotive refinishing where it is just a person doing the spraying, so all he does is spray 1 coat, wait 5-10min flash time, and spray another coat. Production lines these days are fully automated with robotics, where every single move has to be programmed, calibrated, test run, evaluated, recalibrated, and re-tested. The more coats required in the overall process, the process grows more complicated geometrically. Now imagine tri-coat paints (ground+base+clear) with upwards of 10 coats, and difficult-to-calibrate ones like matte finish discussed herein.

3. Unlike exterior panels, where appearance is of paramount importance, non-exterior panels really just require good corrosion protection for the substrate. Yeah, there are guys that obsess over dressing up their engine compartment to the nines and keeping it spotless in order to show off to their buddies and on Facebook groups, the vast majority of car buyers couldn't give a rat's behind how the underhood paint don't quite match the exterior. A good portion of them probably never opened the hood.

Besides, UV protection, which is formulated into automotive clear top coats, is not required where the sun don't shine 364.5 days out of a year.

Like I said above, I get why they would do it. I've sold literally thousands of cars and I've only had 1 person ever even mention it to me. Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Also, I won't need to Google the early red G70s. I own one and the color difference is noticeable. I obsess over the car for myself, not buddies. It bugs me every time I open the hood. I think it's more because the cost-cutting is right in your face and this car was a special purchase. To be fair, I never noticed the engine bay color on any of my other cars. So I definitely would have been in that vast majority.

 

[Volfy]

Like I said above, I get why they would do it. I've sold literally thousands of cars and I've only had 1 person ever even mention it to me. Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Also, I won't need to Google the early red G70s. I own one and the color difference is noticeable. I obsess over the car for myself, not buddies. It bugs me every time I open the hood. I think it's more because the cost-cutting is right in your face and this car was a special purchase. To be fair, I never noticed the engine bay color on any of my other cars. So I definitely would have been in that vast majority.

For me, the underhood paint thing doesn't bother me at all, being that most every other mfr does the exact same thing legitimizes it as an industry-wide consensus of this being a sound cost saving strategy. Genesis has to find ways to control cost in less significant ways, in order to spend in on things that do make a more significant impact.

Take the hood, for example... G70's is made of aluminum (trying putting a magnet on it), whereas the hood on the Stinger is steel. Realistically, they could've given the G70 a steel hood and most owners probably would not have noticed the extra weight, but... Genesis did their calculus and was convinced the extra cost is worth the weight saving up front, perhaps for a better F-R weight distribution for better chassis balance. To me, that is a quantifiable improvement that can result in a measurable performance gain. Given a choice, I'd take the lightweight aluminum hood over fancy underhood paint any day of the week... especially AutoX Sunday.

But that's just me. Not to say I don't have my pet peeves with Genesis cost cutting on the G70. I'm forever miffed about them ditching the double wishbone front suspension, when they modified the G80 chassis into the G70/Stinger. At the end of the day, I'm still glad they did what they had to and were able to offer the G70 at this price point. Had they splurged on every facet of the car, in order to please everybody, I doubt the G70 would have happened at all. Or at least not at the price point we are interested when we bought ours.