very rough first start of day - check engine light - P0306 - questionable dealer response

[inmanlanier]

This is an interesting one with a twist. The sleezy scumbags tried to scam me for major BS and it backfired on them. I'd still like to know what happened. Details:

Yesterday my 2015 5.0 (39289 miles) backed out of the garage fine, and upon shifting into drive my wife immediately noticed it was misfiring. By the end of the driveway there was a check engine light. She shut it downa and called me out. I restarted the car a couple of times - no change - light on, major stumblingat idle. I backed it up, parked it and got my code reader - P0306 (# 6 misfire). I called Hyundai, they directed me to call Hyundai roadside. I'm under warranty.

At the dealer once offloaded from the tow truck same issue - but now whitish smoke and raw fuel smell. I tried to bet the service writer it was a stuck fuel injector (he was clueless).

A few hours later he calls and tells me 'bad news - water in the fuel'. Mind you - with ethanol fuels the binders make it such that when water separates, it's huge. We had already driven the 1/3rd of a tank - so IMHO no way - we would have noticed when the car was first filled up with this tank. When I start quizzing him, he says they have a sample I can come look at. When I ask him his proposed remedy he says - remove the fuel tank and clean it, replace the spark plugs, flush the fuel system - I cut him off and sternly admonished him saying stop the BS right there. No scams on me, dude. This is nonsense. I ask to come down and have him let me witness a fuel sample and speak to the mechanic. He said I can look at the fuel they've already drawn - I chuckled and said I'll witness the act - I don't trust you. He said that couldn't happen until the next afternoon.

I went down anyway. I noticed the car had already been washed (odd) - they normally do that at the end of service. When I started quizzing the service writer, he admits he is not mechanically inclined, so he takes me to the 'master mechanic'. When I start quizzing the mechanic, he quickly realized where I was going and basically just started saying to me - 'whatever you say, whatever you say - I have to get back to work'. He clammed up. I'm now quite suspicious. So I ask for the 'sample of bad fuel'. Guess what container it was in - a disposable water bottle like the packs you buy at the grocery store to drink. I made it a point to mention this to the service writer.. There were a few tiny droplet in the the bottom of something clear with a little milky residue (I'm talking fractions of an ml in perhaps 10 oz. of fuel). I had him witness me pouring through a cloth. There was zero particulate matter. I explained to the service writer that with zero miles on 'water in the fuel' - there would be ZERO damage to anything in the auto. All you need to do is get rid of it - and guess what - they make additives for exactly that. I said I'd humor him, I'd go get some dry gas and we'd run it for a little while to circulate the fuel. Then we'll see if the problems change (which of course they wouldn't because there WAS NO APPRECIABLE WATER IN THE FUEL!). I went and got the dry gas - came back poured it in. I turned the key, and the car was running perfectly, immediately upon start. No time for any effect because the dry gas had not even been circulated. In other words - it cured itself, or they did something. THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG. When I got the service writer to come over - it was all he could do to get me out of there w/o even signing paperwork (remember - this had been towed for what they purport is NOT a warranty coverage). I think he was starting to fret because they actually had a customer call them on a scam. I had him close the paperwork - there was no mention of any work done (but they washed the car!). I drove the car home - it drove fine. Today it's been fine.

So... has anyone experienced this - this being where you have it run very poorly then the next day it's fine. I'm concerned I did have a stuck injector and it's a latent issue that may happen again.

In any case I'm writing this post to document the rather dubious tactics of the mechanic and service writer.

 

[EdP]

This is an interesting one with a twist. The sleezy scumbags tried to scam me for major BS and it backfired on them. I'd still like to know what happened. Details:

Yesterday my 2015 5.0 (39289 miles) backed out of the garage fine, and upon shifting into drive my wife immediately noticed it was misfiring. By the end of the driveway there was a check engine light. She shut it down and called me out. I restarted the car a couple of times - no change - light on, major stumbling at idle. I backed it up, parked it and got my code reader - P0306 (# 6 misfire). I called Hyundai, they directed me to call Hyundai roadside. I'm under warranty.
In other words - it cured itself, or they did something. THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG.

We all know cars don't fix themselves but you left out some important information.

When you picked up the car, were the service people in uniform, such as wearing tin foil hats?
Did you smell incense burning?
Were there blood stains from an animal sacrifice?
Was you car parked alone or was it surrounded by people chanting and beating drums?

They probably performed ritual cure and drove off evil spirits. It works even better if you would make a cash donation so they can continue to do these cures for others. The more cash you give the more power the good spirits have.

Don't laugh, this is as logical as their explanation.

 

[inmanlanier]

I take it by your sardonic response that you're thoughts are in concert with mine. Has our nation really degraded that much? Can we no longer trust anyone? I'll just refer to my usual acronym in these situations - WAD (we are doomed).

 

[EdP]

I take it by your sardonic response that you're thoughts are in concert with mine. Has our nation really degraded that much? Can we no longer trust anyone? I'll just refer to my usual acronym in these situations - WAD (we are doomed).

Sounds like they did a repair under warranty but saw an opportunity to make a few bucks. I've seen similar things over the years, both dealers and indy shops that take advantage of people. Good for you not falling into the trap.

 

[Markymark]

I take it by your sardonic response that you're thoughts are in concert with mine. Has our nation really degraded that much? Can we no longer trust anyone? I'll just refer to my usual acronym in these situations - WAD (we are doomed).

This is interesting. I’ve never had any issues with water contamination or phase separation in any of my cars, and I’ve been around a long time. Are there any diagnostic tests you can run on the injector? Maybe you need to put in some fuel additive? Either way, you don’t want to let a misfire situation go on for long, right? Don’t want to ruin one of your cats.

The service advisor being clueless and scammy does not surprise me in the least. They’re basically salesmen. You didn’t mention your location. Are you in a place with options?

 

[EdP]

This is interesting. I’ve never had any issues with water contamination or phase separation in any of my cars, and I’ve been around a long time.

I did once, early 1990s. I stopped for gas, drove about 10 miles and parked the car for about 10 hours in very cold weather. I had it towed to a shop and they pulled a fuel line and it was frozen. That was before the days of ethanol.

DryGas and warmer weather cured it though they did drain some gas.

 

[inmanlanier]

I'm in the West Palm Beach, FL area - the only other Hyundai nearby is the same ownership.

Regarding diagnostic tests on injectors - perhaps at injector rebuild shops they have such machines - I'd be amazed if it's built into the ECU software. I periodically dump some Chevron techron in my vehicles - I guess I'll do a bottle now as a safety measure.

With regard water, my bud and I retired from Nuclear Power - he was the diesel engineer. He knows lubricants and fuels quite thoroughly (including ethanol due to his boat issues in the day). I've never had water in fuel, and I'm over 60 - having driven many cars many miles. Today, the E10 fuels can actually absorb quite a bit of water (without separation). Once they hit the saturation point, they then tend to separate out totally - meaning a large amount of the water comes out of solution. In other words, there would have been ounces of water in the container, not minuscule amounts. I can post some links to his sources of info if anyone desires.

As it turns out - my engineer bud and I did not chat before I went there - later he told me the above, and that likely the 'dry gas' (I used Heet) really doesn't do anything in E10 fuel. The fuel will suck up any water on it's own until the point of separation.

Regardless of their scam/ignorance, I was really hoping that someone else may have had this (potentially) intermittent issue where out of the blue it runs odd, then sometime shortly later it clears up and it back to normal. Their paperwork showed nothing of any 'warranty repair'. And as EdP points out - water in fuel does not hurt anything at all, provided you don't leave it in their a long time allowing the oxygen to react and corrode.

 

[jimmy buoy]

On my current 5.0 and my 2012 R-Spec 5.0 I would experience occasional roughness when first started. After having it happen a few times, I determined that it had something to do with starting the car when cold, putting it in gear right away, only travelling about 25 feet and shutting it off. (like starting it and backing it out of the garage). The next time its started was when it began running roughly like it was misfiring. By the time I backed out of the driveway, went from reverse to drive and drove 45 seconds to the stop sign the engine ran nominally again. No check engine light on either car though.

Now, I let the car idle for a couple of minutes after giving the throttle a blip or two before shutting it down. That seems to have stopped the problem.

Just curious, would a CEL once triggered turn off that quickly without either being cleared manually or by running the car for a period of time for the car's computer to clear it itself?

Stealerships can sure seem to live up to their reputation.

 

[inmanlanier]

you just triggered an interesting thought...

First off - we have different engines. At least I say that because the HP and torque ratings are different - this means as a minimum the cams are different. In addition, mine is direct injection (not sure about yours).

The interesting thought, however is that the codes that were in the ECU were 'permanent' (or whatever the non-clearable status is) because I happened to note that. That means as a minimum, they had to clear those codes consciously (you and I w/o the Hyundai readers have to do some elaborate driving to clear it). Hmmm... More to support your 'stealership' classification.

Perhaps I need to lodge a formal complaint with Hyundai NA.

 

[jimmy buoy]

I would think that that my 2015 5.0 would be the same engine as yours. My previous car was the 2012 5.0 R-Spec which had some minor differences, but I think it was essentially the same engine. GDI was used on the 5.0 which was introduced in Canada from 2012 on. The previous V8 was a 4.6 and was not a GDI as far as I remember.

It would be interesting to know what the dealership did other than apparently clearing the code.

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[Whitey]

I'm in the West Palm Beach, FL area - the only other Hyundai nearby is the same ownership.

Hi Inman, this wouldn't have happened to be Napleton Hyundai WPB or NPB? If so, I purchased my '16 at the end of June at WPB and they are quite the crooked bunch down there. The car is great but they tried to mick me on the warranty side and I caught them as well. I wouldn't trust them to check my tire pressure after what I went through with them.

 

[inmanlanier]

And hello, to you, Whitey. Yes - that's exactly who they are (NPB).

I'm considering filing a formal complaint with Hyundai. I've gone at odds with dealers when they pull BS like this to the parent company. The parent company always sides with their 'master (crook) mechanics', however putting the customer in a potentially challenging spot.

The issue would have gotten interesting in my case if they pressed it because It would have put my car in jeopardy for future warranty coverage (because there is no way I'd have succumbed to their nonsense) unless I took them to court to challenge (which I'm prepared to do). In the end I'm happy I scared the young service writer since he basically gave me my car back w/o formally stating the BS on the record. I just hung up the phone with Hyundai NA - they have no record of my visit last week. I'm thinking that might put me in good stead and I think I'll lay low for now. What a shame our country has evolved to business practices like this that are not very uncommon.

What got you over to our coast to buy your car?

 

[Whitey]

Good Morn and hello to you too, Inman. Let me preface this by saying below is my verbose experience, lol.

I had purchased a '15 Base Model Genny in March up here (Tampa) and, upon learning more about these fine cars, immediately got the itch for an Ultimate and started looking for the 'right' one. That finally popped up on CarFax at Napleton WPB in June. Seeing as how many they advertised and that they prominently display "Since 1931" in their photos, I felt they were quite legit not to mention being located in West Palm Beach (affluent). So the long-distance negotiations began, yet the shenanigans started almost immediately with them disregarding my initial requests (text/emails only, no discussion unless they certified the vehicle, etc.). Needless to say, you get the picture.

After 2-3 weeks and several in-depth phone calls with 4-6 different 'reps', their VIP Sales Manager promised all was ready and to come test drive and close the deal. So on Sunday 6/30 I drove down and traded in my '15 for my current '16. Looking back, my gut told me several times to walk away, but their well-rehearsed song-and-dance kept me there from noon till almost 5. I made the deal and was promised exactly what I asked for, CPO Certifications, HPP Platinum Wrap Warranty, minor needed repairs written up for my local dealer to be covered, and so on. The ride home was smooth and love the car.

I went to my office Monday but something was nagging me all day to double-check the paperwork more thoroughly, which that evening found wasn't the proper warranty. Tues morn I called HMA Corp and they opened a Complaint Case which is still active. Not only did they railroad me and blatantly lie about the warranty, but questions arose about the CPO certification. Long story short (or longer ), I immediately requested the third-party warranties be canceled but the chase has been constant. I have HMA up their butts, a lawyer sending demand letters, and my local dealer supporting my case. HMA is backing the CPO paperwork I have (since they believe now that they are being lied to as well) since the consensus is Napleton never did anything at all regarding that, just more blatant outright lies. Luckily, my local dealer also sold me the proper HPP CPO Wrap, so I'm good there.

The few times I've been able to reach the Finance Manager (after 3 months), he gives me the "it will take 'X' weeks and all will be refunded to your finance company" line, but the deadline is approaching and my lawyers are simply waiting to pounce should they not follow through. Lastly, I've contacted the FL Attorney General's office and my complaint is on-hold pending their actions.

So, I'm right there with you. The world has fallen off-axis these days and it's reprehensible. I would be willing to bet there are many buyers who have been screwed over by Napleton and I've literally thought about going after them in a big way including, but not limited to, calling the local news and having them investigated locally and by state regulators. They bank on people like me (long-distance) not checking anything after purchase and by the time it comes up down the road it's way too late and no one would take legal action. I'm lucky only in the fact that the vehicle is sound and ultimately it's certified and properly warrantied (all of my doing and many headaches later).

So I say to all out here, STAY AWAY from both of Napleton's Palm Beach dealerships!

 

[inmanlanier]

You have had a similar issue that my son's significant other had when she purchased her vehicle with a trade and they did not properly close the sale (across the street - Napleton Kia). She was overbilled on monthly payments of her old car because they did not file the title change and process payoff of her old debt. My son has learned from me, and after several face to face meetings, they finally wrote the check owed. I'm sure his physical size and threatening demeanor towards the end were part of the motivators. What a shame - that was about 18 months ago.

I had similar games with the dealership I bought my car from (down in Coconut Beach). Normally I get my cars from my bud who is a licensed dealer, but as I'm sure you know the '16s were very limited and very few for sale on the auction sites (Manheim is our usual source). I as well filed a complaint on the shoddy practices of yet another dealer (Plantation I think) when I was looking for mine. After making an appointment to see the car, the price went up on the internet over $3K (I had the car gurus website price history to prove it). They would not verify that the previous price in writing (but would verbally over the phone). Since they would not validate in writing I abandoned that purchase immediately, not wanting to drive an hour away only to have games.

It appears that many of the dealers are total scum these days.

Let me know when you want to go to the newspaper; we'll be more than happy to provide ammo with you.

 

[Markymark]

Yes. it should be presumed that dealers are the scum of the earth.

I bought my Genesis from Homer Skelton Ford in Olive Branch, Mo. I saw the car advertised, test drove it, then put down a deposit, with the firm understanding that they would make sure the backup camera was working and that they would put new tires on it. I agreed to come in the next week and do the paperwork and they told me the car would be ready that day.

So I come in a week later, write them a big check and do all the paperwork, and ask where my car is. They tell me it's still at Homer Skelton Hyundai getting fixed. So I leave, a little irritated because I'm having to rent a car. 2 days later, the car still has not appeared and I call the dealership. It turns out they were lying, and they just had it in some back yard mechanic's garage. The camera is still not fixed.

So now I'm not thinking rationally and tell them to just give me the GD car and I'll get it fixed under warranty at another dealership. Anyway, it turns out the reason the backup camera was not working is a wiring harness was frayed, probably because the car had been rear-ended at some time. The Carfax did not show this, and yes, I should have gotten a PPI. But I didn't because the dealership is one of the largest in the area and I thought they would not do this. So I relearned what I should have learned back in 1995 - Dealers are the scum of the earth and ALWAYS get a PPI.

They Hyundai dealership I took it to had it for 5 weeks and blew a head unit to figure out what had happened and to partially fix the camera. My Sat Nav still isn't working (MN Soft is keyed to a device ID, which changes when the head unit is changed) and my backup lines are not present. Otherwise, the car is wonderful and I can't really blame the Hyundai dealer I took it to.

 

[Whitey]

It appears that many of the dealers are total scum these days.

Let me know when you want to go to the newspaper; we'll be more than happy to provide ammo with you.

Like yourself, past cars of mine were purchased through private connections, licensed dealers, and friends of friends, etc. Always got the cars I desired at a good deal and was never an issue.

Thinking back, it's been ages (20+ yrs) since my last dealer experience and, while they've never been easy to deal with, I had no idea it had gotten this scummy. Let's face it, the stigma of car buying has always existed due to their BS sales tactics where the weak always got taken. But, to be so bald-faced and look you in the eye and outright lie while pretending otherwise made my head blow once I realized what they'd done. They're lucky they weren't near me the next morning after HMA confirmed my suspicions.

Seeing as your son's SO dealt with another fiasco with the Napleton name, it would seem they operate under the same crooked culture across all of their operations. I originally researched and found Ed Napleton and his many dealer operations listed here in the State of FL. My attorney has all his info and he will be included if and when the time comes. As with her experience, they jerked around in paying off my '15 while the new loan popped up in no time. They pushed it beyond my payment due date and it took me several calls with WF on the line (and threaten legal) to get the check sent and resolved. How these guys get away with this is beyond me.

Is there a NewsChannel down there that has one of those investigative reporters that you call when there's a problem and they go out and get answers? If so, I thought that may be a good way to start some drum-beating down there...

 

[Whitey]

Yes. it should be presumed that dealers are the scum of the earth.

So now I'm not thinking rationally and tell them to just give me the GD car and I'll get it fixed under warranty at another dealership. Anyway, it turns out the reason the backup camera was not working is a wiring harness was frayed, probably because the car had been rear-ended at some time. The Carfax did not show this, and yes, I should have gotten a PPI. But I didn't because the dealership is one of the largest in the area and I thought they would not do this. So I relearned what I should have learned back in 1995 - Dealers are the scum of the earth and ALWAYS get a PPI.

Yep Mark, the ol' never forget Rule #1. And you're absolutely right about PPI's.

Luckily, my local dealer is taking good care of me. Amazing how one can be so bad and another seemingly just the opposite; my local here is Crown Hyundai and they have been exceptional at taking care of every minor detail so far.

Crown
Napleton

 

[Chad86tsi]

I've had a rough cold start 2 times in 6 months on my '15 5.0. Both were brief, perhaps 10 seconds and self cleared. Feels like spark loss to me. Didn't throw any codes, but probably didn't last long enough either. If the engine and exhaust were cold, it wouldn't necessarily burn off the fuel from that fuel from the dead cylinder, so it would smell like gas in the exhaust.

Pulling and inspecting spark plugs will tell you a lot if you need another piece of data for diagnosis.

 

[inmanlanier]

Thanks, Chad for your reply. Yes, pulling plugs will do so, however remember in my event after the starts the very strong raw fuel smell was present. It usually takes alot of fuel in the rich side (vs. lean side) to misfire - trust me there was so much fuel in that smoke that was clearly the cause of the misfire. I won't be wasting my time with the plugs since something was done to where its back to normal. I'm confident the plugs will look good.

I vaguely recall my prior instances were where we got up very early in the morning in North Carolina (temperature in the 40s), then drove home to the balmy high 80s. The next day first start was rough. Or vice versa. In any case, the very few times I immediately shut down and restarted and it was fine. I never understood any rationale to the oddball circumstances, but that's what sticks in my brain nonetheless.

 

[mth]

This is an interesting one with a twist. The sleezy scumbags tried to scam me for major BS and it backfired on them. I'd still like to know what happened. Details:

Yesterday my 2015 5.0 (39289 miles) backed out of the garage fine, and upon shifting into drive my wife immediately noticed it was misfiring. By the end of the driveway there was a check engine light. She shut it downa and called me out. I restarted the car a couple of times - no change - light on, major stumblingat idle. I backed it up, parked it and got my code reader - P0306 (# 6 misfire). I called Hyundai, they directed me to call Hyundai roadside. I'm under warranty.

At the dealer once offloaded from the tow truck same issue - but now whitish smoke and raw fuel smell. I tried to bet the service writer it was a stuck fuel injector (he was clueless).

A few hours later he calls and tells me 'bad news - water in the fuel'. Mind you - with ethanol fuels the binders make it such that when water separates, it's huge. We had already driven the 1/3rd of a tank - so IMHO no way - we would have noticed when the car was first filled up with this tank. When I start quizzing him, he says they have a sample I can come look at. When I ask him his proposed remedy he says - remove the fuel tank and clean it, replace the spark plugs, flush the fuel system - I cut him off and sternly admonished him saying stop the BS right there. No scams on me, dude. This is nonsense. I ask to come down and have him let me witness a fuel sample and speak to the mechanic. He said I can look at the fuel they've already drawn - I chuckled and said I'll witness the act - I don't trust you. He said that couldn't happen until the next afternoon.

I went down anyway. I noticed the car had already been washed (odd) - they normally do that at the end of service. When I started quizzing the service writer, he admits he is not mechanically inclined, so he takes me to the 'master mechanic'. When I start quizzing the mechanic, he quickly realized where I was going and basically just started saying to me - 'whatever you say, whatever you say - I have to get back to work'. He clammed up. I'm now quite suspicious. So I ask for the 'sample of bad fuel'. Guess what container it was in - a disposable water bottle like the packs you buy at the grocery store to drink. I made it a point to mention this to the service writer.. There were a few tiny droplet in the the bottom of something clear with a little milky residue (I'm talking fractions of an ml in perhaps 10 oz. of fuel). I had him witness me pouring through a cloth. There was zero particulate matter. I explained to the service writer that with zero miles on 'water in the fuel' - there would be ZERO damage to anything in the auto. All you need to do is get rid of it - and guess what - they make additives for exactly that. I said I'd humor him, I'd go get some dry gas and we'd run it for a little while to circulate the fuel. Then we'll see if the problems change (which of course they wouldn't because there WAS NO APPRECIABLE WATER IN THE FUEL!). I went and got the dry gas - came back poured it in. I turned the key, and the car was running perfectly, immediately upon start. No time for any effect because the dry gas had not even been circulated. In other words - it cured itself, or they did something. THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG. When I got the service writer to come over - it was all he could do to get me out of there w/o even signing paperwork (remember - this had been towed for what they purport is NOT a warranty coverage). I think he was starting to fret because they actually had a customer call them on a scam. I had him close the paperwork - there was no mention of any work done (but they washed the car!). I drove the car home - it drove fine. Today it's been fine.

So... has anyone experienced this - this being where you have it run very poorly then the next day it's fine. I'm concerned I did have a stuck injector and it's a latent issue that may happen again.

In any case I'm writing this post to document the rather dubious tactics of the mechanic and service writer.

My 2015 is doing this right now. Just started yesterday. Wife was leaving work, check engine,rough idle, she pulled out and got on it(probably 65 for her). I have front and rear cameras so I looked today and could see the white smoke as she was accelerating. It has done this one other time but cleared up. I will finish reading this post to see what others have found.