What the HELL is going on with Kia?!

[Sal Collaziano]

I think it's safe to consider Kia a competitor to Hyundai now that Hyundai owns far less than 50% of the company. I've been noticing a trend lately...

The Kia Cadenza is, I don't know, seven shitloads nicer than the Hyundai equivalent - the Azera. Mainly on the inside where it's a whole different planet of luxury.

The Kia Optima sells at a higher ATP (average transaction price) than Hyundai's equivalent Sonata.

The Kia K900 is generally considered a better looking car than Hyundai's Equus - and the interior is an improvement. HOWEVER - the K900 is technically a generation ahead of the Equus so the opposite would not make sense ANYWAY...

And we know that Kia is working on a Genesis Coupe competitor as well as a Genesis Sedan competitor... I find it interesting that Kia might actually have a better Genesis Coupe and Sedan in a few years...

What do you think about that?

 

[homeofstone]

Is kia only less than 50% owned by Hyundai? I thought it was another division since platforms, engines, and some hardware is shared on the various models.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

Is kia only less than 50% owned by Hyundai? I thought it was another division since platforms, engines, and some hardware is shared on the various models.

Yes, Hyundai owns approximately 33% of Kia. That's not an exact number and I'm sure somebody will post a more accurate number shortly.

 

[Mark_888]

During the Asian financial crisis Kia declared bankruptcy in 1997, and in 1998 Hyundai Motor Company acquired 51% of the company, outbidding Ford Motor Company which had owned an interest in Kia Motors since 1986. After subsequent divestments since 1998, Hyundai Motor Group (parent company of Hyundai Motor Company) now only owns about 33% of Kia (as of December 31, 2013, Hyundai owned 33.88% of Kia Motors).

Hyundai and Kia have extensive technology, R&D, and manufacturing sharing relationships, although they compete against each other in most other respects.

 

[Alwaysforward]

I can tell you this, when we sat in the K900 down at the Fort Lauderdale Auto Show last year, if the price wasn't $64k, we would have bought that car. The interior in that car is second to none. It is plush yet, sporty if that makes any sense. I had a hard enough time justifying my Genesis, no way to justify a $64k car on my budget.

 

[YEH]

I think it's safe to consider Kia a competitor to Hyundai now that Hyundai owns far less than 50% of the company. I've been noticing a trend lately...

The Kia Cadenza is, I don't know, seven shitloads nicer than the Hyundai equivalent - the Azera. Mainly on the inside where it's a whole different planet of luxury.

Since Kia didn't have a Genesis equivalent at the time to (as a manner of speaking) set the table for the K900 (as the Genesis sedan did for the Equus), Kia made the Cadenza more luxurious and more of an ES competitor than an Avalon competitor.

There is a new Cadenza on the way and based on the spy shots - looks like it will have sharper sheetmetal and an even nicer interior.

Kia is also in the midst of developing the production version of the GT concept which will likely be in the same price range (probably a little bit higher) - so it will definitely be interesting to see how the 2 end up doing in sales (my $$ is on the GT/K800?).

The Kia Optima sells at a higher ATP (average transaction price) than Hyundai's equivalent Sonata.

That's largely due to the SX and SX-L trims for the Optima (the Sonata has nothing in comparison to the SX-L trim).

Despite the Hyundai brand being stronger of the 2, the Optima has the higher ATP b/c of its knock-out styling (esp. the higher trim levels) which also gets some buyers of entry-level luxury sedans to drop down to a loaded Optima (too bad the new Optima is a step backwards in sheetmetal).

In addition, Kia doesn't have as extensive a Euro lineup as Hyundai, hence Kia had to design the Optima in mind for the Euro market and give it a nicer interior for the dashstrokers (whereas Hyundai had the i40 instead of the Sonata for Europe).

But even for models which don't have a separate Euro version - the Kias tend to be nicer (i.e. - the Sorento over the SFS/SF).

Interesting enough, Ford Europe took a page from Kia's success w/ the SX-L trim by starting its upmarket Vignale line.

The Kia K900 is generally considered a better looking car than Hyundai's Equus - and the interior is an improvement. HOWEVER - the K900 is technically a generation ahead of the Equus so the opposite would not make sense ANYWAY...

Think the Equus caught up to the K900 in terms of interior materials quality after its MCE.

The K900 has the same platform and mechanicals as the Equus so not a generation ahead.

And we know that Kia is working on a Genesis Coupe competitor as well as a Genesis Sedan competitor... I find it interesting that Kia might actually have a better Genesis Coupe and Sedan in a few years...

A Kia RWD coupe is on the backburner for now.

As for the Genesis sedan competitor, the GT/K800? - likely will have a nicer interior than the Genesis - but that's largely in part due to the GT/K800 being a newer model (things are changing at an ever quicker pace in the auto industry).

Case in point - the new Tucson looks to have a nicer interior than the Santa Fe Sport (and overall looks more upscale) despite being lower on the totem pole (the new Tucson looks so nice - I'd rather get a loaded Tucson than the SF Sport, or for that matter - the NX or MKC). And with the new Sportage set to arrive some time after the Tucson, likely will have a nicer interior than the Tucson (not so keen on the new sheetmetal for the Sportage based on the spy shots).

The C Class has a nicer interior than the E Class for the time being (will change with the new E Class - which will have some features that the S Class doesn't have).

 

[Sal Collaziano]

I find the way Lexus does things perfectly acceptable - though different.

LS (Flagship)
GS
ES

To "me" - the LS is for the person who wants a LARGE car with all the creature comforts and technology available from the brand. The ES is for the person who wants a roomy car with all the creature comforts minus some of the technology. The GS is for the person who wants a fairly roomy car but is more concerned with technology and (to some extent - performance) than creature comforts.

I think the ES fits into the picture very well. BMW doesn't have one. Mercedes doesn't have one. Audi doesn't either. Cadillac will have one with the XTS if it doesn't go away - which I'm hearing it may be around a little longer than originally anticipated.

So I think the Cadenza can stick around just fine along-side a midsize rear wheel drive car with either a V8 or twin turbo V6. Same goes for the Hyundai Azera.

-----

I'm really curious to see what the K800 (if that's what they name it) is going to be like. When do you suspect we'll start seeing some real information? I wonder if Kia will ever consider a sub brand...

 

[zielritter]

The Kia Optima, in my eyes, is easily the best looking car in its segment. I think it's a beautifully designed vehicle especially in the white with tinted windows. They even have an aftermarket exhaust from certain companies, which is pretty neat for that type of car.

It's funny how you can look at the lines on the Optima and see similarities between it and the Sonata yet it's no comparison when determining which one is the better looking vehicle. Some (my wife) would say the same thing about the Santa Fe-Sorento comparison. We are both multiple time Hyundai owners too.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

The Kia Optima, in my eyes, is easily the best looking car in its segment. I think it's a beautifully designed vehicle especially in the white with tinted windows. They even have an aftermarket exhaust from certain companies, which is pretty neat for that type of car.

It's funny how you can look at the lines on the Optima and see similarities between it and the Sonata yet it's no comparison when determining which one is the better looking vehicle. Some (my wife) would say the same thing about the Santa Fe-Sorento comparison. We are both multiple time Hyundai owners too.

I agree. It's a really nice looking car. The first that made me notice - and take seriously - Kia. And as you mentioned - especially in white (and with tinted windows). It looks so good to me in that combination that I almost think it's strange to have it in any other color.

I do REALLY like the NEW Sonata as well. However, the back isn't anything special. I really like it from the front and sides, though. The Kia Optima looks good from any angle.

I agree with YEH that the new one coming out for 2016 isn't exactly as flashy - but it's not bad either. I'm not sure why Kia went a little safe with the new one - but they did...

 

[mdsbuc]

As for the Genesis sedan competitor, the GT/K800? - likely will have a nicer interior than the Genesis - but that's largely in part due to the GT/K800 being a newer model (things are changing at an ever quicker pace in the auto industry).

Is there any word out as to when this model might come to market?

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[YEH]

I find the way Lexus does things perfectly acceptable - though different.

LS (Flagship)
GS
ES

I think the ES fits into the picture very well. BMW doesn't have one. Mercedes doesn't have one. Audi doesn't either. Cadillac will have one with the XTS if it doesn't go away - which I'm hearing it may be around a little longer than originally anticipated.

I wouldn't say too different (at least for sedans):

LS
GS
IS

Pretty much fits the MB/BMW mold of 3 RWD sedans of diff. sausage sizes.

Lexus just adds the ES, which is a full-size FWD sedan, at entry-level/compact prices.

Wouldn't say that the XTS (nor is the RLX for that matter) is a direct competitor to the ES (that would be the LaCrosse) since it is priced one segment higher (mid-price range) alongside the CTS, whereas the ES is priced alongside the IS.

When Toyota moved the ES from the Camry to the Avalon platform - they had the opportunity to bump up the ES one price segment, but they didn't - knowing full well that the ES would loose a big chunk of its sales.

It's funny how you can look at the lines on the Optima and see similarities between it and the Sonata yet it's no comparison when determining which one is the better looking vehicle. Some (my wife) would say the same thing about the Santa Fe-Sorento comparison. We are both multiple time Hyundai owners too.

In most cases - the Kia has the better sheetmetal.

Pro_cee'd GT > i30 hatch (Euro models) or the Veloster
Sportage > outgoing Tucson
Optima > Sonata
Sorento > Santa Fe Sport/SF
Cadenza > Azera
K900 > Equus
K800? > Genesis (going out on not too much of a limb here)

The one exception would be Elantra > Forte (the old Koup was nice, the newer one - not so much).

And now the new Tucson > outgoing Sportage (we'll have to see what the new Sportage ends up looking like; based on the spy shots - could be a bit funky looking).

I agree with YEH that the new one coming out for 2016 isn't exactly as flashy - but it's not bad either. I'm not sure why Kia went a little safe with the new one - but they did...

Part of it is the greenhouse - Kia softened it a bit to improve rear passenger headroom (like what Hyundai did for the Sonata).

But some of the other stuff (which I wouldn't characterize as going safe - as is the greenhouse) such as adding the kink to the headlights just was unnecessary or just wasn't shaped well (the front end of the Sportspace concept looked better - don't know why they couldn't adhere to that).

Is there any word out as to when this model might come to market?

The latest word is that Kia is going to debut a revised/more production ready version of the GT concept at the LA Auto Show or early next year w/ launch sometime late 2016.

That probably means for the KDM market so USDM launch some 5-6 months later (or sometime 1st or 2nd Q likely as an '18MY).

I'm really curious to see what the K800 (if that's what they name it) is going to be like. When do you suspect we'll start seeing some real information? I wonder if Kia will ever consider a sub brand...

Kia probably needs a (luxury) sub-brand more than Hyundai at this moment (due to Hyundai having the better reputation), but like for Hyundai, they probably wouldn't launch a sub-brand until they reach a certain threshold in the # of lux vehicles they have in their lineup (which won't be as much as Hyundai due to their more limited resources).

Unless Kia changed things - the production version of the GT will be smaller (and sportier) than the Genesis and powered by the 3.3TT V6 (w/ maybe a NA V6 or a reworked 2.0T as the other engine option).

If Kia follows the plan (to distinguish the 2 brands.competitors) - the GT will be geared to the opposite end of the midsize spectrum - more geared to the likes of the CTS.

There's also talk about the Stinger coupe being delayed and not totally shelved, but think Kia would be better off doing a sporty crossover before that.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

I can definitely see Kia's Genesis (K800) being sized more appropriately as a regular midsize instead of a large midsize. Perhaps even on the smaller side for a more sporty feel (lighter). I just wish they'd get a better name for these cars. K900 is not very good - and it's still early enough in the game to make changes. K800 isn't good either.

 

[OneFunGenesis]

I like K900 over Equus. WTF was hyundai thinking on that one?? lol

 

[YEH]

I can definitely see Kia's Genesis (K800) being sized more appropriately as a regular midsize instead of a large midsize. Perhaps even on the smaller side for a more sporty feel (lighter). I just wish they'd get a better name for these cars. K900 is not very good - and it's still early enough in the game to make changes. K800 isn't good either.

There's a conflicting report from a source denying that a more production-ready GT concept will appear at an auto show later this year or early next year, but oddly enough, the same source acknowledges that the GT has undergone crash testing (which would totally indicate the opposite).

Wouldn't read too much into this contradictory source as it is quite common for auto execs to state conflicting reports (would not be surprised if it is sometimes done on purpose)/be on different pages.

Saw the same thing happen repeatedly with GM/Cadillac w/ reports about the Omega being greenlit and then later denying that (when those in the know knew to dismiss the latter).

Here's a new development about the successor to the Genesis coupe.

As we have known, the replacement is going upscale to compete in the luxury field, but there apparently will be a new concept (the previous was the HND-9 Venace) and the coupe will be larger than the current Genesis coupe - so this might mean a coupe not so much in the entry-level/compact segment, as much as being more of a mid-size coupe (or a tweener); the HND-9 would have been too small (hope they use the lovely Venace design as the basis for a high performance coupe down the road).

I like K900 over Equus. WTF was hyundai thinking on that one?? lol

Well, the K900 was penned under Schreyer's leadership (still take issue with the shape of the headlights and the too conservative dash) whereas the Equus is a few years older and was developed for the chaebol top execs and top govt. leaders who tend to be on the conservative side.

From the looks of the next gen Equus - still looks to be on the conservative side - but that's the norm for the flagship class (the S Class, current and upcoming 7 Series, etc. all are pretty conservative).

 

[Sal Collaziano]

Here's a new development about the successor to the Genesis coupe.

As we have known, the replacement is going upscale to compete in the luxury field, but there apparently will be a new concept (the previous was the HND-9 Venace) and the coupe will be larger than the current Genesis coupe - so this might mean a coupe not so much in the entry-level/compact segment, as much as being more of a mid-size coupe (or a tweener); the HND-9 would have been too small (hope they use the lovely Venace design as the basis for a high performance coupe down the road).

;p

 

[OneFunGenesis]

^ You'd have to bolt 2 genesis together to even touch the HP rating of that car lol

 

[amartz]

^ You'd have to bolt 2 genesis together to even touch the HP rating of that car lol

Or two turbos on a 5.0 V8! (hint, hint...)

 

[Sal Collaziano]

Yeah, two turbos on the Tau would work.

 

[guybo]

Kia should see an opportunity in that Hyundai is dropping the most successful Genesis they make- the 2.0T Genesis Coupe. If Kia could make a RWD turbo coupe they may be able to swoop in steal a lot of Hyundai's customers. I plan on keeping my 2.0T Genesis Coupe for a lot of years, but after I'll be priced out of the Genesis family once they make the Genesis Coupe a $40k luxury sportscar with the 3.3TT or a 5.0 V8. A lot of people in the 2.0T will be in the same boat plus younger drivers who will want a moddable sexy RWD turbo coupe that's cheap.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

Kia should see an opportunity in that Hyundai is dropping the most successful Genesis they make- the 2.0T Genesis Coupe. If Kia could make a RWD turbo coupe they may be able to swoop in steal a lot of Hyundai's customers. I plan on keeping my 2.0T Genesis Coupe for a lot of years, but after I'll be priced out of the Genesis family once they make the Genesis Coupe a $40k luxury sportscar with the 3.3TT or a 5.0 V8. A lot of people in the 2.0T will be in the same boat plus younger drivers who will want a moddable sexy RWD turbo coupe that's cheap.

I imagine in that situation Hyundai would still have something for people looking for a car/deal like the current Genesis Coupe.