"Whatever happened to the two-door car?" - it became a G70!

[Volfy]

The Kia EV9, an almost $80k Kia vehicle is having no issues selling right now. Meanwhile the most expensive version of the CX-90 tops out at $60k, which is identical to a loaded Toyota Grand Highlander (that also sells like hotcakes).

RWD isn't the issue. The CX-90 has less combined legroom than a much smaller X5, which itself has less legroom than a GV80. Mazda just did a terrible job with packaging and completely misunderstood the entire point of a three-row.

View attachment 58887

Sale figures? Personally, I don't judge a car's worth by sale numbers. I myself don't buy what other folks like... I buy what I like. Stingers and G70s are not strong sellers, and I own 3 of them. You want to follow the herd? Go right ahead; knock yourself out.

But just for giggles, let's look at some numbers:

Genesis sold 19,697 GV80's in 2023
Mazda sold 30,821 CX90's in 2023

And Mazda didn't even release the CX90 in North America till Spring 2023.

So according to you, this means Genesis GV80 is even more of a dismal failure?! Yeah right. Go tell any Genesis dealer that, they'll laugh your ass right out the showroom door.

As far as Mazda is concerned, the best way to benchmark the new CX-90 is against it's outgoing CX-9. We test drove a ton of other 3-row SUVs before buying our 2019 CX-9, and it had bar none the best driving dynamics. The 2.5 turbo 4-cyl was smoother and torquier than all the competitors' V6's. Mazda knows well what's important to their zoom-zoom customer base. No doubt that's why they switched to RWD architecture.

So, how is the CX-90 doing relative to the CX-9? For the 17yrs Mazda has been selling CX-9 in the US, only 3 of those years they sold over 30,000/yr.

CX-90 did that in less than a full sales year after intro.

 

[Volfy]

Yep, I owned of 23 (ok, slight exaggeration) Mazda Millenias ever sold, a 2000 Millenia S. I ended up owning it for just a year, mainly because I test drove and fell in love with the then-new Lexus IS300, but also because of the poor Mazda dealer experience.

For those of you who don't know, the Millenia S was designed to be sold as an Amati, which was going to be Mazda's "Genesis". In 2000, it was about ~$45K in Canada (more than a fully-equipped BMW 330i); it was built to a much higher standard than any other Mazda, and quite a bit more expensive than anything else they sold at that time. What made it unique in the market was the use of a tiny 2.3L "Miller Cycle" V6, which used a combination of a lower compression ratio and supercharger to deliver power and efficiency.

Mazda Millenia Ad

I may have heard of someone who drove across the ~150km Hwy 108 "the Renous" in New Brunswick in a 2000 Millenia S with 4 passengers at sustained speeds in excess of 200km/h. This was an old logging highway with very little traffic through a completely unpopulated area. The passengers in my the back seat (my parents) didn't even realize we went that fast, they were just surprised when we got to the other end in ~45mins.

Despite how great the car was, the dealer experience was no different than I had owning a 323 - when I asked about a loaner car when my car was in for the annual service, they told me to take a bus. I test drove the Lexus (and bought it) the next day.

That said, Lexus here was co-located with Toyota; but they had dedicated sales staff, dedicated service advisors, Lexus-trained techs that prioritized Lexus work, an exclusive lounge with complimentary treats and private offices, complimentary loaners (including gas!!), and complimentary detailing with any service. If Lexus made a car that I liked right now, I'd go back in a heartbeat.

FWIW, I thought the Millenia was a great effort on the part of Mazda to compete with the Japanese Big Three (Toyota, Nissan, Honda), which all created their own luxo brand with standalone dealerships. Like Hyundai later with the first Genesis, Mazda was too small to afford such a move and ultimately was handicapped by the same dealership problem Genesis still faces today.

A car's true merits often don't correlate well with it's commercial success. Consider the S2000; Honda only sold 66,000 of them in the US, which for a company the size of Honda is a drop in the bucket. If you go by sale figures, you might call it a dismal failure. But 20yrs later, S2000s continue to be held in the utmost regard amongst car enthusiasts. Well kept examples can command hefty price tags far in excess of their original MSRP.

Mazda has never reached "mainstream" status, but they've produced some truly great driver's cars. Their zoom-zoom reputation is deservedly earned. Unfortunately, most of the general motoring public don't give two excrements about it. Fortunately, enough of us do care, such that the marketplace isn't infested entirely with boring mainstream vehicles that can put a crackhead on meth to sleep.

Some of us do get to enjoy "interesting" cars that aren't parked in every other driveway... and we should all be thankful for that.

 

[Husky]

Yeah, my 1970 was quite a handful with the RS motor - driving that car in the rain was stressful! My 997 is pretty tame, the rear end slides out controllably (really only as the tires age, when they are new the car just sticks like glue).

Sorry I'm late to this great discussion. I have a 997.2 as well, for the same reasons - it's a sweet spot between sportiness and luxury. We've taken it on 8 hour trips, but I also did my first autocross with it last Sat. It made me look like a better driver than I am.
I also agree on the Miata comments. I've been thinking of getting one, which would be my first convertible in 50 years of car ownership. My wife and I test drove a 2015 (NC) Club model yesterday and we absolutely loved it. What a perfect greatbox! I'm now planning to sell my E36 M3 sedan of 23 years and replace it with a Miata.

 

[Backslack]

Sale figures? Personally, I don't judge a car's worth by sale numbers. I myself don't buy what other folks like... I buy what I like. Stingers and G70s are not strong sellers, and I own 3 of them. You want to follow the herd? Go right ahead; knock yourself out.

But just for giggles, let's look at some numbers:

Genesis sold 19,697 GV80's in 2023
Mazda sold 30,821 CX90's in 2023

And Mazda didn't even release the CX90 in North America till Spring 2023.

So according to you, this means Genesis GV80 is even more of a dismal failure?! Yeah right. Go tell any Genesis dealer that, they'll laugh your ass right out the showroom door.

As far as Mazda is concerned, the best way to benchmark the new CX-90 is against it's outgoing CX-9. We test drove a ton of other 3-row SUVs before buying our 2019 CX-9, and it had bar none the best driving dynamics. The 2.5 turbo 4-cyl was smoother and torquier than all the competitors' V6's. Mazda knows well what's important to their zoom-zoom customer base. No doubt that's why they switched to RWD architecture.

So, how is the CX-90 doing relative to the CX-9? For the 17yrs Mazda has been selling CX-9 in the US, only 3 of those years they sold over 30,000/yr.

CX-90 did that in less than a full sales year after intro.

I never said anything about sales volume, I was talking about how long it's sitting on dealer lots which is the article I linked. The CX-90 sits on the lot for an average of 90.5 days before one is sold. It's one of the slowest-selling cars in the entire US. The Kia EV9 meanwhile sits only 37.8 days on average. The Grand Highlander is at 24.4 days.

The CX-90 has been so much of a flop that Mazda had to trim $4K off the MSRP from last year, and that's before incentives and other dealer bonuses to get the thing off lots. It's objectively a failure.

 

[Backslack]

Yep, I owned of 23 (ok, slight exaggeration) Mazda Millenias ever sold, a 2000 Millenia S. I ended up owning it for just a year, mainly because I test drove and fell in love with the then-new Lexus IS300, but also because of the poor Mazda dealer experience.

For those of you who don't know, the Millenia S was designed to be sold as an Amati, which was going to be Mazda's "Genesis". In 2000, it was about ~$45K in Canada (more than a fully-equipped BMW 330i); it was built to a much higher standard than any other Mazda, and quite a bit more expensive than anything else they sold at that time. What made it unique in the market was the use of a tiny 2.3L "Miller Cycle" V6, which used a combination of a lower compression ratio and supercharger to deliver power and efficiency.

Mazda Millenia Ad

I may have heard of someone who drove across the ~150km Hwy 108 "the Renous" in New Brunswick in a 2000 Millenia S with 4 passengers at sustained speeds in excess of 200km/h. This was an old logging highway with very little traffic through a completely unpopulated area. The passengers in my the back seat (my parents) didn't even realize we went that fast, they were just surprised when we got to the other end in ~45mins.

Despite how great the car was, the dealer experience was no different than I had owning a 323 - when I asked about a loaner car when my car was in for the annual service, they told me to take a bus. I test drove the Lexus (and bought it) the next day.

That said, Lexus here was co-located with Toyota; but they had dedicated sales staff, dedicated service advisors, Lexus-trained techs that prioritized Lexus work, an exclusive lounge with complimentary treats and private offices, complimentary loaners (including gas!!), and complimentary detailing with any service. If Lexus made a car that I liked right now, I'd go back in a heartbeat.

Ironically Mazda sold what was supposed to be another Amati as the RWD Mazda Sentia... which ended up being rebadged into the Kia Enterprise in some other global markets. You could almost call it Genesis's distant great-grandfather.